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Topic ClosedMeat-Eater or Veggi?

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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 05:54
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

I'm not trying to be provocative or make some kind of point, but I'm just curious, how many people here would eat a stew made of cat and/or dog?
Generally we don't eat the meat of predators and carnivores - mostly because it's not nice to eat and also because it has high concentrations of Vitamin A, which is poisonous in the levels found in carnivores. In the wild carnivores seldom eat other carnivores even when there is a height, weight, power advantage - I believe there are natural reasons for that which are more than being higher up the food chain.
 
The "cute" side does come into it of course, but all domestic animals are cute- lambs, piglets and calves are cute, as are ducks (I've kept ducks as pets, I still adore duck à l'orange and Peking duck).
 
All humans are naturally squeamish - it takes constant exposure to the brutality of slaughtering to eat to become inured to that. I think that is a natural reaction that has been bred into us for survival, that stopped us killing everything in sight and probably led us to farm certain animals rather than just hunt whatever was running wild. The modern world has desensitised our natural squeamishness - the slab of steak on the styrene pack in the supermarket is divorced from the animal on the hoof in the field - we no longer make that mental connection between food and animal, animal and food. So when we have an animal as a pet we do not regard it as food and the mere thought of eating it is abhorrent to us. This natural reaction does not make us naturally vegitarian, it makes us responsible omnivores.
 
I think percieved intellegence comes into it too - we recognise the intellegence in some animals and regard them as lesser forms of our own intellegence - most of us would struggle to eat monkeys and dolphins for example. I guess this would be empathy.
 
Rabbits are food - they were imported into several countries as food (originally by the Romans), escaped and went wild, then were adopted as pets. What put them off the menu in many of those countries was myxomatosis and it has taken generations to put them back on, but the seperation of "food" and "pet" is probably too great for most people to consider eating rabbit pie. As a confirmed omnivore I have eaten rabbit - I didn't enoy it - whether that was the gamey taste or the thought of eating Bugs Bunny that put me off I cannot honestly say, I don't have the same issue when eating Bambi or Donald Duck.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 06:18
Can someone tell me what the moral argument for vegetarianism is? I don't think killing animals and eating them is immoral in the slightest but ain't the cruelty, privation and extermination of some species a completely separate issue? (and not an insignificant one as I admit we have become indifferent to some repugnant agricultural practices over the years yet remain quite rightly horrified at cruelty inflicted on say, a domestic pet)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 06:56
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Can someone tell me what the moral argument for vegetarianism is? I don't think killing animals and eating them is immoral in the slightest but ain't the cruelty, privation and extermination of some species a completely separate issue? (and not an insignificant one as I admit we have become indifferent to some repugnant agricultural practices over the years yet remain quite rightly horrified at cruelty inflicted on say, a domestic pet)
(As I implied in my previous post) I think this is a natural trait of humans, but one that has been distorted by the domestication of humans as a species. As we have moved away from scavenging to hunting to farming to buying we have removed ourselves from the natural food-chain and into an artificial one of our own creation. In doing this we have developed a sense of right and wrong regarding what is acceptable and what is unacceptable when it comes to animal husbandry and welfare, which we have extrapolated to the whole animal kingdom whether they be a livestock, a pet or just a "wild animal". This sense of right and wrong (which is morality) is the misapplication of a natural instinct that we had as undomesticated wild animals as a survival trait.
 
The key is domestication - the domestication of ourselves, our food-stock (animal and vegetable) and the animals we commandeered to help us in that process (now called "pets") - if we had done none of those domestications we could not have a vegetarian choice in out diet plans.
 
Vegetarianism is a product of our own success as "farmers", not only in arable  farming but also in animal farming. Before the agricultural and industrial revolutions we could not pick and choose our diet, everything was seasonal and we ate what we had because that was all we had. We could only grow and eat certain foods at specific times of the year, we could not preserve and transport food as easily as we can now. We could not choose to be purely vegetarian, but we could not choose to be purely carnivorous either - the omnivorous diet was the only viable option. We could not have the high levels of meat in our diet that we have now without the progresses made in growing the vegetable feedstock for those animals. Progress as given us a choice and the ability to choose, applying "morality" to that is reverse engineering a natural behaviour into something it never was. Vegetarianism is not a moral diet or a biological classification, it is a lifestyle choice that has been enabled by our ability to manage and alter our environment.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 07:05
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Can someone tell me what the moral argument for vegetarianism is? I don't think killing animals and eating them is immoral in the slightest but ain't the cruelty, privation and extermination of some species a completely separate issue? (and not an insignificant one as I admit we have become indifferent to some repugnant agricultural practices over the years yet remain quite rightly horrified at cruelty inflicted on say, a domestic pet)
(As I implied in my previous post) I think this is a natural trait of humans, but one that has been distorted by the domestication of humans as a species. As we have moved away from scavenging to hunting to farming to buying we have removed ourselves from the natural food-chain and into an artificial one of our own creation. In doing this we have developed a sense of right and wrong regarding what is acceptable and what is unacceptable when it comes to animal husbandry and welfare, which we have extrapolated to the whole animal kingdom whether they be a livestock, a pet or just a "wild animal". This sense of right and wrong (which is morality) is the misapplication of a natural instinct that we had as undomesticated wild animals as a survival trait.
 
The key is domestication - the domestication of ourselves, our food-stock (animal and vegetable) and the animals we commandeered to help us in that process (now called "pets") - if we had done none of those domestications we could not have a vegetarian choice in out diet plans.
 
Vegetarianism is a product of our own success as "farmers", not only in arable  farming but also in animal farming. Before the agricultural and industrial revolutions we could not pick and choose our diet, everything was seasonal and we ate what we had because that was all we had. We could only grow and eat certain foods at specific times of the year, we could not preserve and transport food as easily as we can now. We could not choose to be purely vegetarian, but we could not choose to be purely carnivorous either - the omnivorous diet was the only viable option. We could not have the high levels of meat in our diet that we have now without the progresses made in growing the vegetable feedstock for those animals. Progress as given us a choice and the ability to choose, applying "morality" to that is reverse engineering a natural behaviour into something it never was. Vegetarianism is not a moral diet or a biological classification, it is a lifestyle choice that has been enabled by our ability to manage and alter our environment.
 
 


Thank you, just wish you'd been around the last time I had a spat with a veggie
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 08:51
Here's another interesting thing to look at,

Although I rarely eat meat, if I do have the occasional chicken or fish that has the head and eyes intact that does not bother me much, yet others I know that are much more into meat than myself might find eating such a thing difficult.

Do any of you meat-eaters find eating an animal with the head and eyes intact difficult, do you eat meat that way on a semi-regular basis?

No philosophies please , just personal experience.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 08:57
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Here's another interesting thing to look at,

Although I rarely eat meat, if I do have the occasional chicken or fish that has the head and eyes intact that does not bother me much, yet others I know that are much more into meat than myself might find eating such a thing difficult.

Do any of you meat-eaters find eating an animal with the head and eyes intact difficult, do you eat meat that way on a semi-regular basis?

No philosophies please , just personal experience.


I've never had a mammal with the eyes or head still atacked, but I have had fish and shellfish that way. The first time I had a lobster with the head on, it grossed me out a bit, but now it doesn't bother me much. It's just what you're used to.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 09:03
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Here's another interesting thing to look at,

Although I rarely eat meat, if I do have the occasional chicken or fish that has the head and eyes intact that does not bother me much, yet others I know that are much more into meat than myself might find eating such a thing difficult.

Do any of you meat-eaters find eating an animal with the head and eyes intact difficult, do you eat meat that way on a semi-regular basis?

No philosophies please , just personal experience.


Yep, I have to admit as a meat-eater that 'head and eyes intact' would make me feel a bit squeamish and I'd probably go out of my way to avoid the experience. Reminds me of that scene in the Simpsons where Homer, while crying his eyes out, still manages to eat his 'pet' lobster regardless.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 09:15
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Here's another interesting thing to look at,

Although I rarely eat meat, if I do have the occasional chicken or fish that has the head and eyes intact that does not bother me much, yet others I know that are much more into meat than myself might find eating such a thing difficult.

Do any of you meat-eaters find eating an animal with the head and eyes intact difficult, do you eat meat that way on a semi-regular basis?

No philosophies please , just personal experience.


Yep, I have to admit as a meat-eater that 'head and eyes intact' would make me feel a bit squeamish and I'd probably go out of my way to avoid the experience. Reminds me of that scene in the Simpsons where Homer, while crying his eyes out, still manages to eat his 'pet' lobster regardless.



"Are you going to share any of that with us, Dad?"
"No. *sniff* Pinchy would have wanted it this way."
LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 09:19
If it will see me through the day ... Ermm
 
 
damn that's philosophising. Embarrassed
 
 
As Logan said - fish and seafood no problem, mammals are something else, mainly because a cow's head is more than I can eat in one sitting - sucking pig wasn't a problem when I had that, not that I ate any of the head - I don't eat that much offal anyway so brain, eyes and cheeks don't appear on my plate at all. I've prepared most foul from fully feathered, headed and footed creature into something oven-ready so that's not an issue, again, I see no point in eating any of the discarded bits when there is a whole carcass of white meat to munch on. While I am aware that all animals have heads, and tails and feet and livers and kidneys, I don't have a problem with knowing they do, or not eating those bits. Cabbages have roots - not going to eat a cabbage root any time soon, but having one on my plate isn't going to put me off.
 
However since it was a philosophical question I would counter it by asking would you eat the whole plant? You can chow down on a plate of spuds but would you eat the stalks, leaves and flowers of the potato plant (well, no - they are toxic) (would you eat a raw potato) - you'll grind down the seeds from grasses and bake them into bread or make pasta, but would you eat straw or hay (well, no - you intestine isn't equipped to digest them) - you'd eat an apple but would you eat a apple tree (well, no - you cannot break down cellulose fibres). I've eaten rose petals but I've never been hungry enough to munch my way through the rose bushes in the garden.
 
99% of the plant kingdom is inedible, most of it will kill you.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 09:52
^ Ha ha, would you believe a salted raw potato was a favorite snack of mine as a child.

I appreciate the honest answers from those who didn't side-step or change the subject. Anymore real life stories about eating meat that has the head and eyes intact?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 09:56
My wife's family likes to get a whole roast pig for big parties/occasions, I think they leave the head on for that.  Otherwise, I've never really had "meat" with a head intact, but I've had fish many of times with the head on.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 10:18
^^I will not eat a head of a cow or a lamb - the skull with gnashing teeth and cooked eyes is not appealing to me. I will gladly eat animal's ass - it's the tastiest muscle. I eat occasionally brains (my family loves sheep's brain with scrambled eggs) but I dislike the taste.

However, I have no problem with eating small fish - entire body, along with head and intestines, but I prefer it without it (it's bitter and it spoils the meaty taste).

Also, when I was a kid, I used to catch small shrimps and limpets (sea snails) with my father. We were using them as a fishing bait, but also eating them - alive, in one piece.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 10:30
Also: I love frogs and wild boar. Goulash made of bear is one of the most delicious things ever. I dislike horse meat. I would like to try sea urchins. I would not eat spiders or scorpions to save my life (although I swallowed one spider accidentally Dead), but wouldn't hesitate to try some insects, such are grasshoppers,often on the menu in Asian cuisines.

I wouldn't mind cats or dogs - I don't know if I would like them though.

And to stir up some controversy - I don't see a taboo in human flesh. If I'm starving on a desert island, why not? I wouldn't object if one is going to eat me after I die - if that can save someone's life.




Edited by clarke2001 - November 04 2010 at 10:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 11:05
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ Ha ha, would you believe a salted raw potato was a favorite snack of mine as a child.

I appreciate the honest answers from those who didn't side-step or change the subject. Anymore real life stories about eating meat that has the head and eyes intact?
Side-stepped! Shocked As if I'd dare such a thing.
 
Steaks don't come with head attached, neither do pork cops or roast leg of lamb - even chickens are too big for one person to eat and are not presented on the plate intact, so the only critters we can eat that can be served avec le tête are fish, seafood and possibly small birds (unless hamsters and mice are back on the menu after 1500 years of culinary abstinence). Aside from small birds, (though I can't recall a specific recipe where they are served complete with head and beak), I think we've all addressed the issue of fish and shell fish (and like Moris, I have eaten whitebait where you eat the whole thing, head and all - and rather enjoy them).
 
So what creatures are you referring to?
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 13:22
^ I ordered chicken in a small French cafe and it came with head, neck and eyeballs all intact, it was also cooked at a lower temperature than is usual in the states. It was no big deal to me, I ate it, it also came with a really good salad too, yum yum.

In "real" Chinese restaraunts like the kind you find in older neighborhoods in San Francisco, it is not unusual to get the whole bird with your order, some people like the feet and beaks.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 13:26
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 avec le tête 

Now picture your old French teacher scolding you.  Geek
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 13:31
Originally posted by clarke2001 clarke2001 wrote:


And to stir up some controversy - I don't see a taboo in human flesh. If I'm starving on a desert island, why not? I wouldn't object if one is going to eat me after I die - if that can save someone's life.




Remind me not to go on a three hour tour with you. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 13:44
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Can someone tell me what the moral argument for vegetarianism is? I don't think killing animals and eating them is immoral in the slightest but ain't the cruelty, privation and extermination of some species a completely separate issue? (and not an insignificant one as I admit we have become indifferent to some repugnant agricultural practices over the years yet remain quite rightly horrified at cruelty inflicted on say, a domestic pet)


I'm not sure that there is one universal moral/ethical argument for (or against) vegetarianism, just as people decide to become vegetarian or vegan for different reasons. Peter Singer (probably the most widely respected animal rights scholar) would argue that the argument for vegetarianism comes from an expansion of utilitarianism (i.e. one can do the most good by deciding not to eat animals). This doesn't necessarily imply that animals have the same rights as humans, just that animals do have interests that ought to be considered in the decision.

I do absolutely agree, however, with the poster who argued that the ability to be a vegetarian is one that comes from our advancements in agriculture and industry. I've always considered my own vegetarianism to be something of a privilege.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 14:40
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Here's another interesting thing to look at,

Although I rarely eat meat, if I do have the occasional chicken or fish that has the head and eyes intact that does not bother me much, yet others I know that are much more into meat than myself might find eating such a thing difficult.

Do any of you meat-eaters find eating an animal with the head and eyes intact difficult, do you eat meat that way on a semi-regular basis?

No philosophies please , just personal experience.

I have yet to do this, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed. In fact, I hear the eyes and brain of certain animals are some of the tastiest parts. Fish eyes are common to eat in Japan, and so forth. It wouldn't be my first choice, but I'm not so ignorant that I assume it's somehow less gross to eat any other part of an animal. 

As odd as this could read, there are humane ways of slaughtering animals. LOL And I of course think putting them through torture is absolutely wrong. I just disagree with the argument that some people make that animals should have the same rights and responsibilities as humans. Could you imagine being a witness in animal court, then going to visit your murderous pet in animal prison? Tongue 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 14:51
There might be some evolutionary advantage in being disgusted by nervous system tissue. There are diseases that are transmitted through the consumption of nervous system tissue (and that aren't necessarily killed by cooking). Mad Cow disease, Kuru, and Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease are all examples. So maybe individuals who are disgusted by eating brains would run less of a risk of contracting these disorders.
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