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Topic: Meat-Eater or Veggi?Posted By: JLocke
Subject: Meat-Eater or Veggi?
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 04:20
I've made the choices a bit broad in order to keep the voting simple. Whichever option seems closest to your eating habits, just pick that one.
Oh, I do hope this sparks some debate. There has to be a few folks here who think acting on our nature and eating meat is wrong. And I'm genuinely curious.
Replies: Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 04:38
What do you mean 'acting on our nature'? Man has always killed animals and eaten them. Well, ever since he's worked out how to. Man is part of the natural world.
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 04:43
Both. But you need an extra vote for vegetarian. What I mean is one that doesn't eat fish. Because a vegetariajnn that does eat fish is not a vegetarian.
So I can't vote as i am an omnivore as is natural.
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 04:46
Blacksword wrote:
What do you mean 'acting on our nature'? Man has always killed animals and eaten them. Well, ever since he's worked out how to. Man is part of the natural world.
So . . . isn't that natural? Doesn't that kind of answer your own question?
What else would I mean by 'acting on our nature'?
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 04:51
Snow Dog wrote:
Both. But you need an extra vote for vegetarian. What I mean is one that doesn't eat fish. Because a vegetariajnn that does eat fish is not a vegetarian.
So I can't vote as i am an omnivore as is natural.
I've made the options much more broad so you can feel better making a choice and not be so picky.
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 05:10
I don't eat everything, but I do eat meat.
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 05:15
Vompatti wrote:
I don't eat everything, but I do eat meat.
I don't eat everything, but I am overweight.
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 05:20
JLocke wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
Both. But you need an extra vote for vegetarian. What I mean is one that doesn't eat fish. Because a vegetariajnn that does eat fish is not a vegetarian.
So I can't vote as i am an omnivore as is natural.
I've made the options much more broad so you can feel better making a choice and not be so picky.
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 05:28
Snow Dog wrote:
JLocke wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
Both. But you need an extra vote for vegetarian. What I mean is one that doesn't eat fish. Because a vegetariajnn that does eat fish is not a vegetarian.
So I can't vote as i am an omnivore as is natural.
I've made the options much more broad so you can feel better making a choice and not be so picky.
In that case option 1.
I'm so glad you don't seem to take my way of conveying myself too negatively. A lot of folks here do.
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 07:44
JLocke wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
What do you mean 'acting on our nature'? Man has always killed animals and eaten them. Well, ever since he's worked out how to. Man is part of the natural world.
So . . . isn't that natural? Doesn't that kind of answer your own question?
What else would I mean by 'acting on our nature'?
Maybe we're getting our wires crossed. Do you mean that although eating meat is natural for man, it is nevertheless wrong on a moral level?
If that is what you meant, then I disagree.
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 08:15
Omnivore.
(The video is not really on topic - the association is merely by the name of the song, and because it's an interesting video that deserves to be plugged in a prog forum.
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 08:55
I checked the second option, I am almost what you would call a vegan, although I occasionally eat fish or cheese and even BBQ chicken now and again.
I haven't eaten beef, pork, lamb etc in decades, and I don't care for milk or eggs either.
You won't get any moral argument from me though, I just like to eat food that is lean and clean, I don't care for heavy foods like I encountered in Northern Europe, the Japanese diet is more to my liking.
The end result is I am in excellent physical condition for my age and have more energy than most. I also avoid caffiene, nicotine, commercial sodas made with corn syrup, fast food, packaged foods with infinite shelf-life and heavy consumption of alcohol.
None of this takes any effort or attitude, I just don't enjoy putting garbage in my body, even as a kid I didn't care for pork or heavy dishes made with mystery meat.
I just eat what I enjoy eating, thats all.
Posted By: sydbarrett2010
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 09:42
semi-veggi
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 16:30
Blacksword wrote:
JLocke wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
What do you mean 'acting on our nature'? Man has always killed animals and eaten them. Well, ever since he's worked out how to. Man is part of the natural world.
So . . . isn't that natural? Doesn't that kind of answer your own question?
What else would I mean by 'acting on our nature'?
Maybe we're getting our wires crossed. Do you mean that although eating meat is natural for man, it is nevertheless wrong on a moral level?
If that is what you meant, then I disagree.
No! That's not what I mean! Please read my original post again, and carefully this time.
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 16:33
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 16:34
Easy Money wrote:
I checked the second option, I am almost what you would call a vegan, although I occasionally eat fish or cheese and even BBQ chicken now and again.
I haven't eaten beef, pork, lamb etc in decades, and I don't care for milk or eggs either.
You won't get any moral argument from me though, I just like to eat food that is lean and clean, I don't care for heavy foods like I encountered in Northern Europe, the Japanese diet is more to my liking.
The end result is I am in excellent physical condition for my age and have more energy than most. I also avoid caffiene, nicotine, commercial sodas made with corn syrup, fast food, packaged foods with infinite shelf-life and heavy consumption of alcohol.
None of this takes any effort or attitude, I just don't enjoy putting garbage in my body, even as a kid I didn't care for pork or heavy dishes made with mystery meat.
I just eat what I enjoy eating, thats all.
Well, surely, I do think a lean, semi-vegetarian diet would do me some good if I put it into practice sometime. I might try it out in the future and see how long I can manage, and also see if I feel significantly healthier or not. For now, however, I've always been an Omnivore with heavy meat-eating habits.
Posted By: June
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 17:17
I've cut down a lot on meat, but I went with omnivore. I like milk, cheese, eggs and use them a lot.
I'd rather starve than eat mystery meat, don't care for seafood, except for a bit of fish once in a while. And legumes are so tasty than I eat them a lot instead of meat too. I almost exclusively cook meat when I have people over for dinner.
Stupidly enough, one of the other reasons why I almost don't eat any meat is because my sh*tty apt has even sh*ttier ventilation and air circulation, and the kitchen fan is barely there for show, so if I cook a steak, my place smells like steak for a week. Can't stand it.
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 18:41
I prefare Viking food, a nice mix of meat and veggies
but also hungarian food Goulash
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 18:43
^ Damn. That post made me hungry.
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 18:46
my father makes a delicious goulash (and other Hungarian food specialties
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Posted By: Viajero Astral
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 21:33
I eat everything, I like meat more when it still bleeding
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Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 04:42
There should be a fourth choice: on diet, avoiding red meat, especially fast-food.
In fact, I think there should be a fifth choice: broke, pasta and rice everyday. (not my case, luckily).
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 04:45
Viajero Astral wrote:
I eat everything, I like meat more when it still bleeding
I'm with you on that one. My steaks always come to me medium or under. Any more well-done than that, I send them back.
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 04:46
CPicard wrote:
There should be a fourth choice: on diet, avoiding red meat, especially fast-food.
In fact, I think there should be a fifth choice: broke, pasta and rice everyday. (not my case, luckily).
I'm sorry there aren't enough choices for you.
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 06:14
JLocke wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
JLocke wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
What do you mean 'acting on our nature'? Man has always killed animals and eaten them. Well, ever since he's worked out how to. Man is part of the natural world.
So . . . isn't that natural? Doesn't that kind of answer your own question?
What else would I mean by 'acting on our nature'?
Maybe we're getting our wires crossed. Do you mean that although eating meat is natural for man, it is nevertheless wrong on a moral level?
If that is what you meant, then I disagree.
No! That's not what I mean! Please read my original post again, and carefully this time.
Right. I see what you mean.
I'm an omnivore, anyway.
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
Posted By: yanch
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 06:14
I like my meat. I try hard to vary it a lot so I'm not always eating red-meat and do some times do meatless meals, but couldn't go totally with out meat.
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 06:14
JLocke wrote:
Viajero Astral wrote:
I eat everything, I like meat more when it still bleeding
I'm with you on that one. My steaks always come to me medium or under. Any more well-done than that, I send them back.
Take this meat back and uncook it some.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 07:16
I welcome it all into the abode of my stomach.
Last night I made a beautiful pot roast, well seasoned, with carrots, potatoes, baby portobello mushrooms, celery, and sweet onions. Mmm Mmm.
Posted By: manofmystery
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 09:38
Vegetarianism is self abuse
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Time always wins.
Posted By: Lark the Starless
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 11:34
SaltyJon wrote:
I eat everything...I'm a college student.
100% this
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 11:50
Viajero Astral wrote:
I eat everything, I like meat more when it still bleeding
yum
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 11:56
I eat meat. I do however try to eat organic / free range meat. Animals don't deserve to be kept in truly awful conditions just so we can eat cheap (poor quality) meat. If it costs more then its tough - we should pay the true price of meat.
Thus I eat less but good quality meat.
------------- Help me I'm falling!
Posted By: Adams Bolero
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 13:16
i'm a definate:
------------- ''Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal.''
- Albert Camus
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 13:18
velociraptor
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 13:22
Boo vegetables! Yay meat!
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 14:45
Sorry no vote...I have not heard any of these bands ....
Krapp, wrong poll..my bad people!!
M-E-A-T!!!!!!! Its what's for dinner and lunch and breakfast and late night snacks.......but not dessert
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Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 16:29
Omnivore,but I really lean towards being carniverous.My aunt and uncle own a butcher shop and I worked in it all through my youth.I simply love meat,especially beef.I can't get enough of it.
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 21:41
I eat meat
I like other things as well, so omnivore I suppose.
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: October 29 2010 at 03:27
Adams Bolero wrote:
i'm a definate:
Wait, I'm a bit confused. Are you implying you like to eat dinosaurs?
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 29 2010 at 19:35
CPicard wrote:
Adams Bolero wrote:
i'm a definate:
Wait, I'm a bit confused. Are you implying you like to eat dinosaurs?
I was thinking the same thing.
Taste like chicken?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: November 01 2010 at 11:22
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: November 01 2010 at 11:45
I cannot imagine life without meat.
------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: November 01 2010 at 11:46
Im gonna eat some pork soon, with some freid mushrooms, and salad
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 01 2010 at 11:52
lucas wrote:
I cannot imagine life without meat.
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: November 01 2010 at 14:31
1)I eat a lot
2)I don't eat everything, I'm picky, but when I can, it's meat
3)I still eat a lot
------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"
-Andyman1125 on Lulu
Even my
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 01 2010 at 15:25
I find it somewhat surprising that we apparently don't have a single vegetarian on PA.
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: November 01 2010 at 15:48
definitely not a veggi. the human body is made for a mixed diet; one look at the teeth and the digestive track makes that clear. it also lacks several hormones that a vegatarian would have, for example an enzyme which would crack cellulosis. why should I treat my body with a diet which it is definitely not made for?
-------------
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: November 01 2010 at 15:49
thellama73 wrote:
I find it somewhat surprising that we apparently don't have a single vegetarian on PA.
Agreed.
Posted By: Viajero Astral
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 00:51
We... like... meat...
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 05:52
Viajero Astral wrote:
We... like... meat...
Uh, no, you like brains.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 09:05
I'm a genuine omnivore with a preference for read meat, accompanied by red wine, or a Dutch hodgepodge with smoked sausage .
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 12:38
Okay, so we all pretty much eat meat in some capacity. That's interesting, as I really thought we would be more divided in that regard.
Okay, so what about this . . . we agree that eating animals as food is natural behavior for us, and so it only makes sense that we enjoy our meat. What about wearing clothing made from animal skins and fur? What about hunting for the sheer sport of it? Y'know . . . stuff that is no longer necessary for us to practice, but we do anyway out of tradition or fashion? How do we all feel about that?
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 12:41
JLocke wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
I find it somewhat surprising that we apparently don't have a single vegetarian on PA.
Agreed.
I thought we'd have a level 5 vegan here at least
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 12:45
Padraic wrote:
JLocke wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
I find it somewhat surprising that we apparently don't have a single vegetarian on PA.
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 14:52
I'm a strict vegetarian, though not a vegan (so fish is certainly out, while dairy is still on the cards). The third box seems more appropriate (to me at least) than the second but .
Um, the whole argument that it's merely 'human nature' (which is a poor justification for all manner of petty villainies) to eat meat seems a bit absurd to me - I hardly see why that's relevant to either an ethical or a practical decision on your diet.
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 14:56
TGM: Orb wrote:
I'm a strict vegetarian, though not a vegan (so fish is certainly out, while dairy is still on the cards). The third box seems more appropriate (to me at least) than the second but .
Um, the whole argument that it's merely 'human nature' (which is a poor justification for all manner of petty villainies) to eat meat seems a bit absurd to me - I hardly see why that's relevant to either an ethical or a practical decision on your diet.
Oh, yeah. Finally some real debates might happen, now.
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 17:16
JLocke wrote:
TGM: Orb wrote:
I'm a strict vegetarian, though not a vegan (so fish is certainly out, while dairy is still on the cards). The third box seems more appropriate (to me at least) than the second but .
Um, the whole argument that it's merely 'human nature' (which is a poor justification for all manner of petty villainies) to eat meat seems a bit absurd to me - I hardly see why that's relevant to either an ethical or a practical decision on your diet.
Oh, yeah. Finally some real debates might happen, now.
I have had my share of debates with vegetarians, but have mostly outgrown it. To each his own. If you are a vegetarian for moral reasons, I can respect that. If you are one for nutrition reasons, I think you are misguided, but it's your body so I don't care. If you are a vegetarian for no good reason (as most of my vegetarian friends are) I think it's really silly, but again, it's your choice.
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Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 17:37
^That is the best answer ever. Happen that now most of my friends are vegetarian, and they took it as a conviction but not for health conditions... they even get mad if in a restaurant there is not a VEGGIE menu exclusive, which I find ridiculous actually... Just ask the salad without meat... it isn't that bad... but well...
-------------
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
Posted By: Conor Fynes
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 17:56
What would I call myself, if I ate vegetarians and vegans as part of my diet?
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 18:09
Conor Fynes wrote:
What would I call myself, if I ate vegetarians and vegans as part of my diet?
Cannibal.
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 02 2010 at 19:20
I would never be a vegetarian for moral reasons. Animals kill and eat each other in brutal fashion and we are animals too as far as I am concerned. Killing for sport and not food is immoral. But then there's the whole thing that no one asks vegetables if they mind being eaten. And who will stand up for the bacteria?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 05:18
Why are meat eaters (at least in the states) opposed to eating dogs or cats. I really don't get that, possibly both animals are very tasty. A lot of good meat is going to waste everyday when animal shelters have to kill abandoned pets by the hundreds.
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 05:56
Easy Money wrote:
Why are meat eaters (at least in the states) opposed to eating dogs or cats. I really don't get that, possibly both animals are very tasty. A lot of good meat is going to waste everyday when animal shelters have to kill abandoned pets by the hundreds.
Gives a new meaning to pet food, doesn't it?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 13:30
Easy Money wrote:
Why are meat eaters (at least in the states) opposed to eating dogs or cats. I really don't get that, possibly both animals are very tasty. A lot of good meat is going to waste everyday when animal shelters have to kill abandoned pets by the hundreds.
Because we've domesticated them and think they are just as cute as human babies. It's a cultural thing, not so much as a moral one. At least in my opinion. Kind of like hunting. We hunt for sport a lot these days, and that makes no real sense to me. Neither does making clothes from animal skin and fur. I mean, I'm not opposed to wearing those types of clothes per se, but I can't logically figure out why we would still see that as an option when we can synthetically produce the same material a lot cheaper and more efficiently.
Hunting for food is one thing, hunting for sport is another. We breed livestock on farms to provide us with food. That's logical. Killing an animal in the wild for survival or providing food to others, that too makes sense to me. However, shooting down an animal in the wild for no reason other than target practice and a trophy . . . well, that's not so logical in my opinion. I'm not saying we should bar people from doing these things, but on a personal level, I have a hard time wrapping my head around a lot of it.
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 13:32
Easy Money wrote:
Why are meat eaters (at least in the states) opposed to eating dogs or cats.
Not all meat eaters are.
Sorry, missed your caveat "at least in the states". I suppose the culture drives the ethics.
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 13:33
Padraic wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Why are meat eaters (at least in the states) opposed to eating dogs or cats.
Not all meat eaters are.
I eat cat all the time when I go to chinese restaurants.
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 13:41
I'm not trying to be provocative or make some kind of point, but I'm just curious, how many people here would eat a stew made of cat and/or dog?
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 13:43
Easy Money wrote:
I'm not trying to be provocative or make some kind of point, but I'm just curious, how many people here would eat a stew made of cat and/or dog?
I wouldn't because I'm conditioned by my culture to think that's gross.
That said, there's also a lot of non-cat and non-dog "meat" dishes that also don't appeal to me in any way.
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 13:46
Easy Money wrote:
I'm not trying to be provocative or make some kind of point, but I'm just curious, how many people here would eat a stew made of cat and/or dog?
I probably wouldn't. I also wouldn't eat something made from Otter or Seal. It's just how I've been conditioned to think. Cute = not food. It's hypocritical and illogical as all hell, and I admit it.
If you would lie to me and tell me it was some other animal, I would eat it and most likely enjoy it.
Posted By: Billy Pilgrim
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 04:28
I once helped my friend slaughter a pig, my diets been getting closer to option two ever since.. so, to me eating meat is kind of gross, specialy with the meat companies today. So every once in awhile I'll have some natural chicken/fish, but I'm trying to be more of a vegetarian for health purposes and other beliefs. On this issue I say to each his own, weather or not other people eat meat doesn't affect me at all, and it's not something I try to push on other people.
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 05:28
Billy Pilgrim wrote:
I once helped my friend slaughter a pig, my diets been getting closer to option two ever since.. so, to me eating meat is kind of gross, specialy with the meat companies today. So every once in awhile I'll have some natural chicken/fish, but I'm trying to be more of a vegetarian for health purposes and other beliefs. On this issue I say to each his own, weather or not other people eat meat doesn't affect me at all, and it's not something I try to push on other people.
Perfectly logical reasons for changing your attitude, and absolutely admirable reasons for not wanting to influence other people. Impressive, honest post all around.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 05:54
Easy Money wrote:
I'm not trying to be provocative or make some kind of point, but I'm just curious, how many people here would eat a stew made of cat and/or dog?
Generally we don't eat the meat of predators and carnivores - mostly because it's not nice to eat and also because it has high concentrations of Vitamin A, which is poisonous in the levels found in carnivores. In the wild carnivores seldom eat other carnivores even when there is a height, weight, power advantage - I believe there are natural reasons for that which are more than being higher up the food chain.
The "cute" side does come into it of course, but all domestic animals are cute- lambs, piglets and calves are cute, as are ducks (I've kept ducks as pets, I still adore duck à l'orange and Peking duck).
All humans are naturally squeamish - it takes constant exposure to the brutality of slaughtering to eat to become inured to that. I think that is a natural reaction that has been bred into us for survival, that stopped us killing everything in sight and probably led us to farm certain animals rather than just hunt whatever was running wild. The modern world has desensitised our natural squeamishness - the slab of steak on the styrene pack in the supermarket is divorced from the animal on the hoof in the field - we no longer make that mental connection between food and animal, animal and food. So when we have an animal as a pet we do not regard it as food and the mere thought of eating it is abhorrent to us. This natural reaction does not make us naturally vegitarian, it makes us responsible omnivores.
I think percieved intellegence comes into it too - we recognise the intellegence in some animals and regard them as lesser forms of our own intellegence - most of us would struggle to eat monkeys and dolphins for example. I guess this would be empathy.
Rabbits are food - they were imported into several countries as food (originally by the Romans), escaped and went wild, then were adopted as pets. What put them off the menu in many of those countries was myxomatosis and it has taken generations to put them back on, but the seperation of "food" and "pet" is probably too great for most people to consider eating rabbit pie. As a confirmed omnivore I have eaten rabbit - I didn't enoy it - whether that was the gamey taste or the thought of eating Bugs Bunny that put me off I cannot honestly say, I don't have the same issue when eating Bambi or Donald Duck.
------------- What?
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 06:18
Can someone tell me what the moral argument for vegetarianism is? I don't think killing animals and eating them is immoral in the slightest but ain't the cruelty, privation and extermination of some species a completely separate issue? (and not an insignificant one as I admit we have become indifferent to some repugnant agricultural practices over the years yet remain quite rightly horrified at cruelty inflicted on say, a domestic pet)
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 06:56
ExittheLemming wrote:
Can someone tell me what the moral argument for vegetarianism is? I don't think killing animals and eating them is immoral in the slightest but ain't the cruelty, privation and extermination of some species a completely separate issue? (and not an insignificant one as I admit we have become indifferent to some repugnant agricultural practices over the years yet remain quite rightly horrified at cruelty inflicted on say, a domestic pet)
(As I implied in my previous post) I think this is a natural trait of humans, but one that has been distorted by the domestication of humans as a species. As we have moved away from scavenging to hunting to farming to buying we have removed ourselves from the natural food-chain and into an artificial one of our own creation. In doing this we have developed a sense of right and wrong regarding what is acceptable and what is unacceptable when it comes to animal husbandry and welfare, which we have extrapolated to the whole animal kingdom whether they be a livestock, a pet or just a "wild animal". This sense of right and wrong (which is morality) is the misapplication of a natural instinct that we had as undomesticated wild animals as a survival trait.
The key is domestication - the domestication of ourselves, our food-stock (animal and vegetable) and the animals we commandeered to help us in that process (now called "pets") - if we had done none of those domestications we could not have a vegetarian choice in out diet plans.
Vegetarianism is a product of our own success as "farmers", not only in arable farming but also in animal farming. Before the agricultural and industrial revolutions we could not pick and choose our diet, everything was seasonal and we ate what we had because that was all we had. We could only grow and eat certain foods at specific times of the year, we could not preserve and transport food as easily as we can now. We could not choose to be purely vegetarian, but we could not choose to be purely carnivorous either - the omnivorous diet was the only viable option. We could not have the high levels of meat in our diet that we have now without the progresses made in growing the vegetable feedstock for those animals. Progress as given us a choice and the ability to choose, applying "morality" to that is reverse engineering a natural behaviour into something it never was. Vegetarianism is not a moral diet or a biological classification, it is a lifestyle choice that has been enabled by our ability to manage and alter our environment.
------------- What?
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 07:05
Dean wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Can someone tell me what the moral argument for vegetarianism is? I don't think killing animals and eating them is immoral in the slightest but ain't the cruelty, privation and extermination of some species a completely separate issue? (and not an insignificant one as I admit we have become indifferent to some repugnant agricultural practices over the years yet remain quite rightly horrified at cruelty inflicted on say, a domestic pet)
(As I implied in my previous post) I think this is a natural trait of humans, but one that has been distorted by the domestication of humans as a species. As we have moved away from scavenging to hunting to farming to buying we have removed ourselves from the natural food-chain and into an artificial one of our own creation. In doing this we have developed a sense of right and wrong regarding what is acceptable and what is unacceptable when it comes to animal husbandry and welfare, which we have extrapolated to the whole animal kingdom whether they be a livestock, a pet or just a "wild animal". This sense of right and wrong (which is morality) is the misapplication of a natural instinct that we had as undomesticated wild animals as a survival trait.
The key is domestication - the domestication of ourselves, our food-stock (animal and vegetable) and the animals we commandeered to help us in that process (now called "pets") - if we had done none of those domestications we could not have a vegetarian choice in out diet plans.
Vegetarianism is a product of our own success as "farmers", not only in arable farming but also in animal farming. Before the agricultural and industrial revolutions we could not pick and choose our diet, everything was seasonal and we ate what we had because that was all we had. We could only grow and eat certain foods at specific times of the year, we could not preserve and transport food as easily as we can now. We could not choose to be purely vegetarian, but we could not choose to be purely carnivorous either - the omnivorous diet was the only viable option. We could not have the high levels of meat in our diet that we have now without the progresses made in growing the vegetable feedstock for those animals. Progress as given us a choice and the ability to choose, applying "morality" to that is reverse engineering a natural behaviour into something it never was. Vegetarianism is not a moral diet or a biological classification, it is a lifestyle choice that has been enabled by our ability to manage and alter our environment.
Thank you, just wish you'd been around the last time I had a spat with a veggie
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 08:51
Here's another interesting thing to look at,
Although I rarely eat meat, if I do have the occasional chicken or fish that has the head and eyes intact that does not bother me much, yet others I know that are much more into meat than myself might find eating such a thing difficult.
Do any of you meat-eaters find eating an animal with the head and eyes intact difficult, do you eat meat that way on a semi-regular basis?
No philosophies please , just personal experience.
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 08:57
Easy Money wrote:
Here's another interesting thing to look at,
Although I rarely eat meat, if I do have the occasional chicken or fish that has the head and eyes intact that does not bother me much, yet others I know that are much more into meat than myself might find eating such a thing difficult.
Do any of you meat-eaters find eating an animal with the head and eyes intact difficult, do you eat meat that way on a semi-regular basis?
No philosophies please , just personal experience.
I've never had a mammal with the eyes or head still atacked, but I have had fish and shellfish that way. The first time I had a lobster with the head on, it grossed me out a bit, but now it doesn't bother me much. It's just what you're used to.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 09:03
Easy Money wrote:
Here's another interesting thing to look at,
Although I rarely eat meat, if I do have the occasional chicken or fish that has the head and eyes intact that does not bother me much, yet others I know that are much more into meat than myself might find eating such a thing difficult.
Do any of you meat-eaters find eating an animal with the head and eyes intact difficult, do you eat meat that way on a semi-regular basis?
No philosophies please , just personal experience.
Yep, I have to admit as a meat-eater that 'head and eyes intact' would make me feel a bit squeamish and I'd probably go out of my way to avoid the experience. Reminds me of that scene in the Simpsons where Homer, while crying his eyes out, still manages to eat his 'pet' lobster regardless.
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 09:15
ExittheLemming wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Here's another interesting thing to look at,
Although I rarely eat meat, if I do have the occasional chicken or fish that has the head and eyes intact that does not bother me much, yet others I know that are much more into meat than myself might find eating such a thing difficult.
Do any of you meat-eaters find eating an animal with the head and eyes intact difficult, do you eat meat that way on a semi-regular basis?
No philosophies please , just personal experience.
Yep, I have to admit as a meat-eater that 'head and eyes intact' would make me feel a bit squeamish and I'd probably go out of my way to avoid the experience. Reminds me of that scene in the Simpsons where Homer, while crying his eyes out, still manages to eat his 'pet' lobster regardless.
"Are you going to share any of that with us, Dad?" "No. *sniff* Pinchy would have wanted it this way."
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 09:19
If it will see me through the day ...
damn that's philosophising.
As Logan said - fish and seafood no problem, mammals are something else, mainly because a cow's head is more than I can eat in one sitting - sucking pig wasn't a problem when I had that, not that I ate any of the head - I don't eat that much offal anyway so brain, eyes and cheeks don't appear on my plate at all. I've prepared most foul from fully feathered, headed and footed creature into something oven-ready so that's not an issue, again, I see no point in eating any of the discarded bits when there is a whole carcass of white meat to munch on. While I am aware that all animals have heads, and tails and feet and livers and kidneys, I don't have a problem with knowing they do, or not eating those bits. Cabbages have roots - not going to eat a cabbage root any time soon, but having one on my plate isn't going to put me off.
However since it was a philosophical question I would counter it by asking would you eat the whole plant? You can chow down on a plate of spuds but would you eat the stalks, leaves and flowers of the potato plant (well, no - they are toxic) (would you eat a raw potato) - you'll grind down the seeds from grasses and bake them into bread or make pasta, but would you eat straw or hay (well, no - you intestine isn't equipped to digest them) - you'd eat an apple but would you eat a apple tree (well, no - you cannot break down cellulose fibres). I've eaten rose petals but I've never been hungry enough to munch my way through the rose bushes in the garden.
99% of the plant kingdom is inedible, most of it will kill you.
------------- What?
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 09:52
^ Ha ha, would you believe a salted raw potato was a favorite snack of mine as a child.
I appreciate the honest answers from those who didn't side-step or change the subject. Anymore real life stories about eating meat that has the head and eyes intact?
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 09:56
My wife's family likes to get a whole roast pig for big parties/occasions, I think they leave the head on for that. Otherwise, I've never really had "meat" with a head intact, but I've had fish many of times with the head on.
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 10:18
^^I will not eat a head of a cow or a lamb - the skull with gnashing teeth and cooked eyes is not appealing to me. I will gladly eat animal's ass - it's the tastiest muscle. I eat occasionally brains (my family loves sheep's brain with scrambled eggs) but I dislike the taste.
However, I have no problem with eating small fish - entire body, along with head and intestines, but I prefer it without it (it's bitter and it spoils the meaty taste).
Also, when I was a kid, I used to catch small shrimps and limpets (sea snails) with my father. We were using them as a fishing bait, but also eating them - alive, in one piece.
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 10:30
Also: I love frogs and wild boar. Goulash made of bear is one of the most delicious things ever. I dislike horse meat. I would like to try sea urchins. I would not eat spiders or scorpions to save my life (although I swallowed one spider accidentally ), but wouldn't hesitate to try some insects, such are grasshoppers,often on the menu in Asian cuisines.
I wouldn't mind cats or dogs - I don't know if I would like them though.
And to stir up some controversy - I don't see a taboo in human flesh. If I'm starving on a desert island, why not? I wouldn't object if one is going to eat me after I die - if that can save someone's life.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 11:05
Easy Money wrote:
^ Ha ha, would you believe a salted raw potato was a favorite snack of mine as a child.
I appreciate the honest answers from those who didn't side-step or change the subject. Anymore real life stories about eating meat that has the head and eyes intact?
Side-stepped! As if I'd dare such a thing.
Steaks don't come with head attached, neither do pork cops or roast leg of lamb - even chickens are too big for one person to eat and are not presented on the plate intact, so the only critters we can eat that can be served avec le tête are fish, seafood and possibly small birds (unless hamsters and mice are back on the menu after 1500 years of culinary abstinence). Aside from small birds, (though I can't recall a specific recipe where they are served complete with head and beak), I think we've all addressed the issue of fish and shell fish (and like Moris, I have eaten http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitebait - whitebait where you eat the whole thing, head and all - and rather enjoy them).
So what creatures are you referring to?
------------- What?
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 13:22
^ I ordered chicken in a small French cafe and it came with head, neck and eyeballs all intact, it was also cooked at a lower temperature than is usual in the states. It was no big deal to me, I ate it, it also came with a really good salad too, yum yum.
In "real" Chinese restaraunts like the kind you find in older neighborhoods in San Francisco, it is not unusual to get the whole bird with your order, some people like the feet and beaks.
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 13:26
Dean wrote:
avec le tête
Now picture your old French teacher scolding you.
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 13:31
clarke2001 wrote:
And to stir up some controversy - I don't see a taboo in human flesh. If I'm starving on a desert island, why not? I wouldn't object if one is going to eat me after I die - if that can save someone's life.
Remind me not to go on a three hour tour with you.
Posted By: lastplaneout
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 13:44
ExittheLemming wrote:
Can someone tell me what the moral argument for vegetarianism is? I don't think killing animals and eating them is immoral in the slightest but ain't the cruelty, privation and extermination of some species a completely separate issue? (and not an insignificant one as I admit we have become indifferent to some repugnant agricultural practices over the years yet remain quite rightly horrified at cruelty inflicted on say, a domestic pet)
I'm not sure that there is one universal moral/ethical argument for (or against) vegetarianism, just as people decide to become vegetarian or vegan for different reasons. Peter Singer (probably the most widely respected animal rights scholar) would argue that the argument for vegetarianism comes from an expansion of utilitarianism (i.e. one can do the most good by deciding not to eat animals). This doesn't necessarily imply that animals have the same rights as humans, just that animals do have interests that ought to be considered in the decision.
I do absolutely agree, however, with the poster who argued that the ability to be a vegetarian is one that comes from our advancements in agriculture and industry. I've always considered my own vegetarianism to be something of a privilege.
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 14:40
Easy Money wrote:
Here's another interesting thing to look at,
Although I rarely eat meat, if I do have the occasional chicken or fish that has the head and eyes intact that does not bother me much, yet others I know that are much more into meat than myself might find eating such a thing difficult.
Do any of you meat-eaters find eating an animal with the head and eyes intact difficult, do you eat meat that way on a semi-regular basis?
No philosophies please , just personal experience.
I have yet to do this, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed. In fact, I hear the eyes and brain of certain animals are some of the tastiest parts. Fish eyes are common to eat in Japan, and so forth. It wouldn't be my first choice, but I'm not so ignorant that I assume it's somehow less gross to eat any other part of an animal.
As odd as this could read, there are humane ways of slaughtering animals. And I of course think putting them through torture is absolutely wrong. I just disagree with the argument that some people make that animals should have the same rights and responsibilities as humans. Could you imagine being a witness in animal court, then going to visit your murderous pet in animal prison?
Posted By: lastplaneout
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 14:51
There might be some evolutionary advantage in being disgusted by nervous system tissue. There are diseases that are transmitted through the consumption of nervous system tissue (and that aren't necessarily killed by cooking). Mad Cow disease, Kuru, and Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease are all examples. So maybe individuals who are disgusted by eating brains would run less of a risk of contracting these disorders.