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Topic ClosedMasterpieces distribution don't follow Gauss curve

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Masterpieces distribution don't follow Gauss curve
    Posted: September 20 2010 at 08:32
The title is a joke, but the idea comes from a poll still open.

Let's look at the distribution of the top 10 albums in their years of release:

3 albums in 1972
2 in 1973 and 1975
1 in 1969, 1974 and 1977

Now let's extend the count to the top 20:

5 in 1972
3 in 1973, 1974 and 1975
2 in 1971
1 in 1969, 1977 and surprise in 1981 (Rush) and 1992 (Anglagard)

The top 50 is:

7 in 1973
6 in 1971, 1972, 1974, 1975
3 in 1976 and 1992
2 in 1977 and 1999
1 in 1969, 1970, 1978, 1980, 1981, 1983, 1985, 2001, 2004 and 2005

All the albums after 1985 are progressive-metal or similar. (Ayreon, Opeth, Pain of Salvation etc...)

More than 60% of the albums in only 5 years.

Can we try to explain this distribution ? Nothing scientific, just to discuss.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 08:35
Cue Walter.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 08:43
There are lot of things in this world that are not normally distributed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 08:52
It seems that the 5 year period coincides with what many people call the "Classic Period" of progressive music. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 09:08
The top rated albums are a popularity contest, not a quality contest.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 09:10
Even more puzzling is the fact that the Beatles released 100% of their albums between 1963 and 1970! Surely we should expect the distribution to to trail out into the late fifties and mid seventies. How can we account for this anomaly?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 09:32
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

The top rated albums are a popularity contest, not a quality contest.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 09:35
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Even more puzzling is the fact that the Beatles released 100% of their albums between 1963 and 1970! Surely we should expect the distribution to to trail out into the late fifties and mid seventies. How can we account for this anomaly?
This made me laugh really hard in the library and now I feel awkward. Although I don't think anybody noticed, they all seem to be watching anime....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 09:47
Another cue, about reviewers, now:

the top 10 albums have been rated/reviewed 7642 times
from 11 to 20 just half: 3938 so the top 20 have 11580 ratings
from 21 to 50 we have 9435 ratings so the total for the top 50 is 21015

So top 10 has an average (easy to compute) of 764 rates per album
11-20 is 393 rates 
top 20 is 579
21 to 50 is 314
top 50 is 420

If I'll have time and willing, I'll compute the numer of reviews per year.

The comments about Beatles and the "Classic period" are fun, but I have a question:


Agreed that it's a popularity contest, as the ratings are subjectives, is it only because of mental closure that there are only 3 albums of the 21st century in the top 50? Why are they all prog-metal and not belonging to other contemporary subgenres?

Is there any relationship between the popularity of the top 50s and their sales ?


I'm not writing a book and I'm not a sociologist. What I say is that we have a quite huge amount of unstructured information and it's possible that with a bit of analisys we can discover something interesting.  

We have all the answers, now let's work to find the questions.Big smile 




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 09:59
Distribution by subgenres:

Top 10

3 symphonic prog
3 Psychedelic/Space rock
3 Eclectic
1 Prog-folk

Top 20

9 Symphonic
3 Psychedelic
3 Eclectic
2 RPI
1 Prog folk
1 Heavy
1 Jazz/Fusion

Note: All the psychedelic/space are Pink Floyd and 2 eclectic of 3 are King Crimson

Top 50

14 Symphonic
10 Eclectic
5   RPI
5  Prog-Metal
4 Psychedelic/Space
4 Heavy Prog
2 Prog Folk
2 Crossover
1 Tech/Extreme
1 Neo-Prog
1 Canterbury



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 10:00
Missed 1 Jazz/fusion in the top 50....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 11:40
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Another cue, about reviewers, now:

the top 10 albums have been rated/reviewed 7642 times
from 11 to 20 just half: 3938 so the top 20 have 11580 ratings
from 21 to 50 we have 9435 ratings so the total for the top 50 is 21015

So top 10 has an average (easy to compute) of 764 rates per album
11-20 is 393 rates 
top 20 is 579
21 to 50 is 314
top 50 is 420

If I'll have time and willing, I'll compute the numer of reviews per year.

The comments about Beatles and the "Classic period" are fun, but I have a question:


Agreed that it's a popularity contest, as the ratings are subjectives, is it only because of mental closure that there are only 3 albums of the 21st century in the top 50? Why are they all prog-metal and not belonging to other contemporary subgenres?

Is there any relationship between the popularity of the top 50s and their sales ?


I'm not writing a book and I'm not a sociologist. What I say is that we have a quite huge amount of unstructured information and it's possible that with a bit of analisys we can discover something interesting.  

We have all the answers, now let's work to find the questions.Big smile 






My last response was sarcastic, but I am a little puzzled by your question. YOu seem to be asking "why do all the most celebrated prog records come from the time when prog was the most popular?" which seems to answer itself to me. The lack of prog masterpieces in later years is due to:
a) fewer bands trying to write prog
b) a lack of exposure due to declining interest in the genre
c) lack of sufficient time to pass for widespread recognition
d) the nostalgia factor

So there may have been some really great prog records in the last decade (indeed there have been. Sleepytime Gorilla Museum.) But they are never going to be recognized in the ay Yes and Genesis' best albums are. There's also something to be said for getting there first. Any symphonic prog these days is going to be compared the classics and is destined to feel at least partially derivative.

Finally, prog as a genre is intrinsically tied to a specific time period. It's like asking why are all the best Film Noir movies from the 30's and 40's? Because the term "Film Noir" implies that period by definition, and even though there have been very fine attempts to mimic the genre since then, but these films will never be considered "the classics."

In answer to your question about prog metal, I think that the reason those albums are highly rated is that right now, in the 21st Century, prog metal is really the only vibrant form of progressive rock doing new things (and this from a guy who doesn't really like prog-metal much.) What other genre today is expanding the frontiers of prog? Maybe post rock, but that is such a niche genre that it is unlikely to have widespread acclaim.


Edited by thellama73 - September 20 2010 at 11:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 12:22
The point about "mental closure comes from the poll "If you had to get rid of..." It's somebody's idea but now I don't remember who.
What I'm trying to do is just start a reflection for myself first. 

It's a fact that the golden period in prog was in the first half of the 70s, I'd like to understand if there's any reason other than the four that you correctly mention. What has caused the declining interest? 
I was there in that period, and my impression was that the majors decided to change the direction of the market and were supported by the media in this operation.  I initially rejected everything was coming from the yuppies world, missing also the few good things that appeared in the 80s. I have missed the 90s because I didn't realized that the times were changed and I'm back to prog since when I joined this site.

What happened in the real world in the meantime? Numbers and statistics are just a cue.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 12:33
I don't agree that the powers that be consciously changed the direction of music in the seventies. First of all why would they? If they were making money with prog, why not keep selling prog? Second, there has been a repeating pattern in music history of increasingly complexity suddenly giving way to much simpler styles. When Renaissance counterpoint became too complex, it was replaced by the simply Baroque. When Bach took Baroque counterpoint as far as it could possibly go, the Classical Period arrived with its very simple melody/accompaniment pattern. Artists like to advance within a style, but there comes a point where the music is too complex for the general public to easily appreciate. I believe that this is whathappened with prog, and the Ramones were a breath of fresh air for people who just couldn't take another double album set about Eastern philosophy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 12:58
the top 10 albums have been rated/reviewed 7642 times
from 11 to 20 just half: 3938 so the top 20 have 11580 ratings
from 21 to 50 we have 9435 ratings so the total for the top 50 is 21015
 
this fits the statistical expectations I have.no surprises here
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 13:01
The sum of many factors, likely. This is what I'd like to discuss about. I'm probably too left-winged, but I saw in this change of direction the successful attempt to reestablish a control over the artists that they have lost in the previous decade, and I don't mean the majors only. But that was my impression actually. It's more likely that the society was changing on its own and the change in music was only a natural consequence.

Why did somebody invent Sex Pistols and punk? Why the media started giving a so big importance to a mediocre pop band like the Bee Gees? Why did they declare a war against the rock dinosaurs?

I don't know the truth but I like to hear your thinking.  I also don't know where this thread is going, but I like how it is going.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 13:03
Originally posted by tuxon tuxon wrote:

the top 10 albums have been rated/reviewed 7642 times
from 11 to 20 just half: 3938 so the top 20 have 11580 ratings
from 21 to 50 we have 9435 ratings so the total for the top 50 is 21015
 
this fits the statistical expectations I have.no surprises here
Correct, but can you find a reason why it's so? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 20:08
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

The title is a joke, but the idea comes from a poll still open....
 
More than 60% of the albums in only 5 years.

Can we try to explain this distribution ? Nothing scientific, just to discuss.
 
I have said all along that the topofthepops at Prog Archives is too much of a fan thing. I have made a suggestion to redo/restart the whole poll and this time you can not vote for more than one album from the same band ... why? ... because you're going to flood your list with the same person/artist and that tends to distort the view and the understanding and fairness of the poll.  It is one of the reasons why I do not like the poll and finding the same band listed 3 times in the top ten ,... is very bad and tends to show that we do not listen to music at all ... just those bands ...
 
And then the worse part ... we compare everything to it!
 
The 90's is not all "metal" ... and Djam Karet is a very good example of it all and deserves a top ten rating ... but you're not going to get someone to listen to it if all they like is "metal" ... they won't "get it" ... and won't like it, even though Djam Karet is much more guitar heavy and designed than the over blown and too loud Dream Theater (these days) and so many other bands like them!
 
All in all, if you check those numbers again and check the duplicates, the actual numbers are even smaller ... and the issue then comes up ... it does not an artistic movement make!
 
I don't want to see "progressive" music die ... but for it to be more important we have to get off the road on the defining work in "progressive" to simply be 5 or 6 bands ... or we are going to kill it and the whole thing just go via the rest of the way anything else has gone ... the top ten way! And progressive will die because it has not sold that well during it's living time ... that is the history ... there were some exceptions, and YES,  GENESIS and ELP  and a couple of others, but they also fell apart and were no longer progressive and became just a song hit band for the radio! The music no longer progressive, or worse ... even interesting!
 
There is a lot more "progressive" music in other places the world over ... and the day we add those to the annals and history of it all, I think that we will finally make amends and help put "progressive" music in the history books ... but it's not gonna happen as long as all we are is "fans" ... and nothing else but fans! No one even remembers the Beatles's fans ... and all of us laugh at the girls fainting ... there's the fate of a lot of music ... for the wrong reasons! On top of it, you'r enot going to get that many of us to listen to anything but 3 albums! ... the last 3! Maybe 5 if we're nice!
 
It's a fake curve ... one of those that says .. "self-fulfilling prophecy" ... very new-agey I tell you ... you just need the crystals all around your ears so we know it's very cool and far out!


Edited by moshkito - September 20 2010 at 20:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 20:17
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Cue Walter.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 20:38
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

The top rated albums are a popularity contest, not a quality contest.


Quoted for truth. 70's symphonic prog is simply the most popular progressive music out there. There's a lot of terrific 70's prog albums out there, but there's just as much great stuff since 1980 as well. It's a shame that modern prog doesn't get nearly as much hype as the stuff from the 70's...

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