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DreamInSong View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Writing Methods, Instrumentation and Structure
    Posted: August 12 2010 at 23:55
Hi, I'm a pianist and been playing for twelve years. I'm also an amateur composer and I've been writing for ten of those years. I'm not really sure what genre my writings are (just as I'm sure many of you avoid genre labels), but my compositions have often been described as ballades or melodic compositions. If I had to guess, I'd imagine they can be classified as rock (since that's 80% of what I listen to, I'm sure the influence is there).
 
 Anyway, the majority of my pieces are for solo piano; however, I'm no longer satisfied with writing just for one instrument. I'd like to be able to start writing more complex and layered songs. The major problem is that I do the majority of my writing through improvisation. This can prove difficult when attempting to write a part for another instrument and I'm unable to write unless I'm at a piano. I was hoping you all might share some of your writing methods, the advantages and disadvantages of each, and where do you find inspiration? For those of you who write lyrics, do you write the music first and then the lyrics? Are they written together? etc...

  Another problem that comes with improvising on piano, is that I have no idea about the capabilities of the other instruments, things like: Can a guitar easily play this note and then this one? Which notes can violins play together? At what point is a note excessively high for a french horn? What general dynamics should I use to allow for each instrument to be clearly heard? Perhaps you all will be able to answer some of these questions. Any tips on writing for a specific instrument would be superb!

  Additionally, my old piano teacher recommended a book for me a while back, I've forgotten the name, but it supposedly answers questions such as these. If anyone knows of such a work, I'd thank you for its name.

  The next issue I'd like to tackle is percussion. I've never written anything for percussion (unless you count piano) and have no idea what an ideal rhythm section should do for the music. I'd want it to compliment the music, but what have you all found to be effective methods for that? Should it emulate the melody, create a contrast or just stick to the beat?

  Finally, structure. Most of my songs are structure and well-formed, but writing through improvisation is tricky. It can be difficult to find and ending and commit to it; to hit a climax, come back down and stop. Hopefully, the writing methods you all suggest will help out with this problem. One thing that I've found to help, is to go into writing with a structure in mind. I'm not sure if there is a name for this, but my personal favorite is A-B-C-B-D-E-A'. If you all could teach me a bit about different structures, it would really help my music. What does the structure of a prelude look like? A nocturne? A symphony? etc... Most importantly, how can use structure to create the falls and climaxes I envision?

Thank you all very much for reading my mass of text, and thank you for your suggestions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 00:09
As far as all the questions about theory goes... I dont know. But the best way to add other instruments is to first collaberate with other instrumentalists. Ask a guitarist to play what you have written for him, if he looks at it and says that chord isnt easily playable then ask him what he would reccomend as an alternative, if you dont like what he recomends then ask him to play it another way, or play an example on piano for him to work with. Not only is collaberation a good way to learn the answers to your questions and get music written but it is also extremely fun when its with good company!
 
As a side note: dual composition is also a great process that me and my brother often practice wherin we work on songs via improv or notation together so as we have a broader knowledge base than either might have alone.
who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 06:11
A lot of questions Tongue
 
I may suggest a method that i have used, to help me out of the monotony that tends to creap in when you write music.
Go into google - write lines like : Cord progression - heavy metal cord progression - jazz cord progresion -
Latin cord progression. ect. ect. - music theory. and whatever else pops up under your seach.
You should then get idears, you can use, test and twinkle.
 
NB.: I allways make music first, then add lyrics.  
 
 
 
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 16:26
Yeah, really a lot of questions. Tricky ones, too. I have to think. So far I will only say that when I compose, it’s usually a mixture between the improvisational and the intellectual approach. More later.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 19:54
I suppose I operate similarly. Generally, if I'm playing a traditionally melodic instrument, I play the piano. (Not that I play well mind you.) And I generally just mess around until I find something I like and just go with it. Its amazing what you can find by just messing around with an instrument. I've come up with many good melodic lines (at least IMO) this way. From there, I decide what I want to do with it. If I want to expand it to add the instruments for a band, then I try and formulate a general outline of what I want to happen and how I want the piece to develop. This is generally very broad and is mostly in terms of what mood or atmosphere I want that particlar piece to have. If needed I'll come up with extra riffs or such to add on top of things and just let things flow from there. I try not to overthink what I'm playing or what I want the song to do. Sadly, most of these things are indeed trial and error processes. You start with something, play it a couple of times, come up with another, perhaps better, idea and run with that. Perhaps you try to combine the two ideas or just say scrap all of it.
 
Perhaps its just because I don't come from a music theory background, but I find (at least at this point) that the best way (for me) is to just improvise and go from that. Even if its just to get main riffs. For me, its much easier to actually write or at least plan a piece once I have some basis (if I want it to have some basis of course). I'm also pretty much tone deaf so I can't really "envision" the notes in my head or just by spurting notes around a page know what whatever I just wrote is going to sound like.
 
As for "the capabilities of the other instruments"...I like to think of it as things don't have limitations. Now that thinking probably fails at some point. But I mean...you can tune a guitar to any configuration really to make whatever you want to play easier or harder. I try not to get bogged down in "standard tuning" or whatever. Now I have no idea how violins work in that regard so I don't know if the same logic can be applied to them, but taking a guess of the top of my head I assume it'd be the same general idea. At the end of the day, it really depends what you want your music to sound like. I mean, if you want to write classical symphonies there are probably greater restrictions to what can and can not be. But even then...there could be liberties to take. Hey...you are asking this on a prog website. Tongue
 
Same thing goes with percussion. It all depends what you want the music to be. If you want a ballad, simple percussion that keeps the beat for the most part is generally whats sought for. Ditto for you standard rock song. I recommend (at least for what I like, which is different than you) changing things up. Have a part in the song where the percussion keeps the beat, but then changes to a contrast. Have a part that doesn't focus on the set...have bongos, castenets, glockenspiels lead the way. Of course, this is just an example. But I think it makes my point. Aside from that, I find (non melodic) percussion very easy to write. Perhaps its because I'm a drummer, but there is seemingly more freedom there, at least how tradition goes. Melody isn't important, harmony isn't particularly important. Rhthym and timbre are your main tools generally. And there are plenty of percussive sounds that could be explored.
 
For you final point of structure...I should say that I embrace the experimental when creating music (for the most part). So, I try not to get bogged down in structures that force the composition into a box. Sure, repeating things is fine, even pattern development works, but I rather not go into it with a preconcieved notion and "let the music guide me" so to speak. As for the more specific structures of preludes and what not...I imagine those could be found online or in music theroy/histroy textbooks. At least, I remember going over them in a class I took, but can't remember the specifics at the moment. Embarrassed 
 
So most of that was probably fairly useless or incomplete...but so it goes. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 20:34
Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

...I generally just mess around until I find something I like and just go with it. Its amazing what you can find by just messing around with an instrument...
 
...I rather not go into it with a preconcieved notion and "let the music guide me" so to speak...


This is essentially what I've been doing and I end up spending months writing a never ending 15 minuet piece... but earlier today my piano/composition teacher compared my music to that of Yes' "Close to the Edge"... so maybe I'm doing okay Big smileEmbarrassed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 20:34
If your keys have midi interface get yourself one of the many professional pc music suites. You can record your improvs and dabble with them using mutlitracking. Midi will allow you to play and record all instruments with the keys and allocate an instrument to them. Midi also has certain advantages with instrument selection- The notes that are not within the range of the instrument will not play. Also anything recorded on midi channel 10 will be played as the selected drum kit. Recording instruments that you don't know such as guitar on keys is not difficult as long as you understand what octave range they are in.

Put some sort of click track down on track 10 before you improvise and all will be in time.

This will make it easier to 'muck around' until you have something you want to expand upon, re-record and bring to fruitition.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 15:23
As said befor and I agree....make an attempt to work with other musicians. I personally write from total inspiration. I grew up in a town which was highly populated with occult activity. I had nightmares for years. I would wake up, run into the studio, lay down tracks which were inspried from the nightmares. Some of them I used for a cheap low budget B film about vampires. When the film student gave up on the project, I re-constructed the ideas for a cd titled "The Arrival Of Nightmares".

I spent quanity time writing in front of a lighthouse while travelling on the road. All of the music I wrote was inspired from nature and the lighthouse.

What happens quite often is you perfect a piece and record it ....but maybe you place it on the shelf. Then about 4 years after the fact, you find yourself composing the most interesting and beautiful piece which has something missing and you don't know what it is. You go through the tapes on your shelf. You run across that special piece and you recorded 4 years prior to this new one, and combine the two making the entire affair worthwhile. Sometimes you have to be patient and let your recording ideas collect dust for a while. Always record your ideas because they could be the vital missing piece to a much later inspired composition. It's a fun way to do things.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 23:49
As said a million times over, an animal will find comfort with nature. It can be inspirational to humans through music for example but, it can also be a stupied brutal force. I understand the spiritual side to it, but I protest against becoming deluded with it......which occurs with a huge percentage of hermit musicans who live on a mountain top.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 23:59
A lot of composers write the entire piece for piano and then expand the orchestration. I have never found this workable, personally, but lots of the greats did it that way, including my favorite composer, Franz Liszt, Sounds like it might be worth a try in your case.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 00:01
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

A lot of composers write the entire piece for piano and then expand the orchestration. I have never found this workable, personally, but lots of the greats did it that way, including my favorite composer, Franz Liszt, Sounds like it might be worth a try in your case.


I've done that on guitar, but can't pull it off on piano.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 10:34
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My apologies for this very long and rather self-centred post.

 

To start with one of your simpler questions: I cannot know what book your teacher recommended, but it may have been Principles of Orchestration by Rimsky-Korsakov. You can also find a lot of resources on the Internet. An article like this one answers another of your questions:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_horn

 

NB! Like many other wind instruments (clarinets, saxophones, trumpets etc.), the French horn is a transposing instrument. If you use MIDI files, that doesn’t make any difference. But if you use real instruments (which of course is better if you have the right musicians at hand), you must know how to transpose. If you write a piece in C major for a horn in Bb, you need two sharps, and a written D will sound like a C.

 

I don’t play the violin, but my experience is that you should be a little cautious when it comes to double stops (playing two notes at a time). I once played in a band with a violinist, and she wasn’t very happy with fifths. Thirds, fourths and sixths are apparently easier due to the tuning of the instrument (it’s tuned in fifths: G, D, A and E).

 

It’s not easy to write idiomatically for the guitar unless you play the instrument yourself, and even the best guitarists have their limitations. My best advice is to buy a cheap guitar and learn to play. I don’t know where you live, but in Norway you can get an excellent beginner’s guitar for less than 200 dollars. The normal tuning is E, A, D, G, B and E. (Keep in mind that classical [nylon string], steel string, 12-string and electric guitars are different instruments and must be treated differently.)

 

I’m afraid I don’t know much about percussion. Again, check Wikipedia and other resources on the Internet.

 

Musical form (open the links in the article):

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_form

 

Inspiration is a problematic word. I may find inspiration in the orange baby lizard I saw two days ago. And then again, maybe not.

 

Earlier, I nearly always made the music after the lyrics were written, but then I didn’t write the lyrics myself. Now it’s often (but not always) the other way around, or I work on the words and the music at the same time. In a few instances I’ve even written new lyrics to old songs, and once I made a song while I was asleep. The lyrics are by Catullus, so they were definitely made before the music, but it was remarkable that I remembered the music when I woke up. The result is here:

 

http://www.supload.com/listen?s=cxKRbw

 

Most of my main ideas stem from improvisation (though no improvisation is really free; you’re always guided by your skills and knowledge, for better or worse). However, composing isn’t only about ideas, it’s just as much about what you do with your ideas to achieve the result you want. Personally I spend a lot of time writing notes, following the rules (or, rather, guidelines) of counterpoint where I find it fit and breaking them if I think it creates a more pleasant or interesting effect. In studio I often try different instrumentations — if for instance a flute is hardly audible, I can try an oboe instead, or maybe double it with a clarinet.

 

Forgive me for droning on about myself — and shamelessly promoting my own music — but I feel the need to be more specific, and that requires musical examples. Here is The End, the first song in my opera/song cycle Ashflame:

 

http://www.supload.com/listen?s=O0zjwX

 

The vocal part — or rather, from where the oboe picks up the tune — was made by “improvisation”. The intro, however, is based on the simple motif G-C#-D-G-Ab (which will recur in The Writer, the Play and the Critics, only in 6/8 and starting with an E). On top of that I placed a melody in the alto flute (a melody that will recur in another song not yet recorded). The polyphonic work here is clearly not improvised, and I believe it could not be improvised.

 

Note that at the end of the oboe solo (and also later when I sing … free to go) there’s a parallel octave between the oboe/voice and the bass. This “mistake” would make me flunk an exam, but the effect is exactly what I want.

 

Another example — the instrumental Afterthoughts and Permutations:

 

http://www.supload.com/listen?s=nMpv7p

 

(You may think I’m a sucker for the curtain sound, but the fact is that between these two tracks there are nine others without it.)

 

The first part is based on an instrumental in 5/4 for classical guitar. It’s what you would call “improvised”: It’s made on the instrument and written down later. Then I arranged it, using strings and woodwinds.

 

The second part is completely opposite: Most of it it’s pure maths. I’m not a mathematician, but I found a way to permute a tone row of 24 tones (actually 12 tones played forwards and backwards) and thus create nine more rows. Based on this, I made a fugue theme (or “subject”) and composed a fugal exposition. From the 13th bar I introduce the tone rows one by one, using a technique called stretto (Engfürung in German), meaning that the next permutation (or “answer”) starts before the previous one is finished.

 

It’s probably more or less impossible to detect the structure without reading the notes (and even then it would take some hard thinking, I guess). After the fugal exposition I ignored the traditional principles of counterpoint completely and tried to compose an atonal piece of music working entirely on it’s own terms. To balance the density of the music I went for a transparent instrumentation, using the symphony orchestra more like a chamber orchestra.

 

The time signature is 2/4 all the way through. The rhythm is, believe it or not, inspired by a passage in Mr. Blue Sky by ELO. Still, it’s probably the most complex piece I’ve made in terms of rhythm.

 

Links to the rest of the recorded parts of Ashflame, in the right order:

 

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=66430

 

Final advice: Use the Internet (and especially Wikipedia) and, if possible, try out your ideas with MIDI files. Good luck!

 

(Sorry for this long post, but you asked for it.)

 

Cheers!

 

Espen

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I say nothing is nothing
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 23:47
Originally posted by DreamInSong DreamInSong wrote:

Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

...I generally just mess around until I find something I like and just go with it. Its amazing what you can find by just messing around with an instrument...
 
...I rather not go into it with a preconcieved notion and "let the music guide me" so to speak...


This is essentially what I've been doing and I end up spending months writing a never ending 15 minuet piece... but earlier today my piano/composition teacher compared my music to that of Yes' "Close to the Edge"... so maybe I'm doing okay Big smileEmbarrassed
 
I'll grant you that is a problem. Admittedly the hardest things for me to do is stopping the piece. What I try to do is just pick an ending that I'm ok with and as I round off the rough edges and come up with a better way to end it then I just change it.
 
The working with others suggestion is also a good one. I've finalized songs that way in the past as well. Esoecially if your not so well versed in alot of instruments (like me) playing with someone who actually knows the instrument is usually a big help. 
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I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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