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The Quiet One 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
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Points: 15745
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 Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:05 |
 Peter wrote:
I could write a LOT on this topic, but don't really have the energy (or inclination to do so here).
I'll just say that I'm a big believer in education, overall. It has been good for me, and I try to make it good for others (I believe I often succeed). 
As for "are kids getting a good education," that depends on the specific country, culture, school, teachers, curriculum and kids. Maybe so -- maybe not.  |
This, though wouldn't call myself a "big believer in education", I certainly say that this thread has interested me and if I have the time and energy I'll write something from my own, student, point of view.
Great discussions, by the way, from Rob and Harry specifically.
Edited by The Quiet One - August 02 2010 at 16:06
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shivareemoon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 27 2009
Location: Argentina
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Points: 103
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Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:11 |
weird in the good sense 
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shivareemoon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 27 2009
Location: Argentina
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Points: 103
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Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:15 |
Topic for another thread "Why do teenagers like horror films?"
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Finnforest
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Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:19 |
I'm with you Shiv. I know the smart dudes around here don't agree with
me, but I do believe there is a connection between violent/thug culture and
a desensitization of behaviors. Most kids are still smart/good enough
to do the right thing, but I believe excessive sex/violence in the
culture does make it easier for *some* kids to cross lines.
Most here disagree, but I'm with you. I believe there is a connection
and that some kids are affected. Sadly the genie won't be going back,
and the bar just keeps getting lower.
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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shivareemoon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 27 2009
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 103
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Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:22 |
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
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Points: 15745
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Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:23 |
shivareemoon wrote:
Topic for another thread "Why do teenagers like horror films?" |
I don't like horror films...
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shivareemoon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 27 2009
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 103
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Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:24 |
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Goodie!!!!
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
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Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:26 |
Finnforest wrote:
I'm with you Shiv. I know the smart dudes around here don't agree with
me, but I do believe there is a connection between violent/thug culture and
a desensitization of behaviors. Most kids are still smart/good enough
to do the right thing, but I believe excessive sex/violence in the
culture does make it easier for *some* kids to cross lines.
Most here disagree, but I'm with you. I believe there is a connection
and that some kids are affected. Sadly the genie won't be going back,
and the bar just keeps getting lower.
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Epignosis wrote:
Look, I like porn, but it's not like I'm going out and having sex or anything. 
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Peter
Special Collaborator
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 9669
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Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:40 |
shivareemoon wrote:
Topic for another thread "Why do teenagers like horror films?" |
Historically, one reason was because when on theater dates, the young lady viewer would (hopefully) need a comforting arm from her swain. Both genders had an excuse to cuddle up. 
 Otherwise, I might theorize these and other reasons:
- Because teens are not children, but not yet adults -- their childhood fear of the dark (and what it might conceal) has not been entirely laid to rest.
- Because horror is gory, and thus offers a socially acceptable outlet for male teen angst and a testosterone-imbalanced apetite for blood and destruction. (See metal & gansta rap.)
- Because horror films often feature scantily clad, attractive young women... running! 
- Because the "bad" promiscuous girl character is usually the first to die -- this appeals to dateless nerds (of both sexes).
- Second to die is usually the victimizing jock -- nerds win again!
- Finally, because teens are crazy nocturnal monsters themselves, basically.... 
Edited by Peter - August 02 2010 at 16:56
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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shivareemoon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 27 2009
Location: Argentina
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Points: 103
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Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:44 |
After all, it's only a questionnaire and it's only after a long while that one really know one's students
And...I prefer not to get into the topic Epignosis has just introduced Very interesting thread!
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 30 2007
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Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:46 |
shivareemoon wrote:
And...I prefer not to get into the topic Epignosis has just introduced Very interesting thread!
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Well, you should know that I'm married, and that only half of the sentence I made was true.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: August 02 2010 at 20:31 |
Epignosis wrote:
shivareemoon wrote:
And...I prefer not to get into the topic Epignosis has just introduced Very interesting thread!
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Well, you should know that I'm married, and that only half of the sentence I made was true.
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You have two things to confess to your wife then.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: August 02 2010 at 23:49 |
llama, how on earth did your parents get away with self-study? As far as I know, every state requires you to take some tests to prove that you learned something or you have to go back to school, and you have to use some sort of curriculum that the state recognizes. And to argue with your point, how can you have a child be exposed to different viewpoints adequately if they're searching for all the information themselves? Unfortunately, humans are quite stupid, so once we form our opinions on something, we tend to reject any opposing evidence, and if your initial opinion is ill-informed this is bad! And if I were learning myself, I would never have actually studied Latin or math, and now I'm strongly considering going into a math based field. Although, to be fair, once I was in 7th grade or so I wouldn't have studied anything at all I just would have been on the internet all day....
Finnforest wrote:
I'm with you Shiv. I know the smart dudes around here don't agree with
me, but I do believe there is a connection between violent/thug culture and
a desensitization of behaviors. Most kids are still smart/good enough
to do the right thing, but I believe excessive sex/violence in the
culture does make it easier for *some* kids to cross lines.
Most here disagree, but I'm with you. I believe there is a connection
and that some kids are affected. Sadly the genie won't be going back,
and the bar just keeps getting lower.
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If that were true, then it would make sense that the rate of violent crime in the US keeps going up with the increasing reach of TV, movies, and video games. Oh wait, it's going down, that actually doesn't make any sense. And overall, this is one of the least violent periods in human history.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Finnforest
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Posted: August 03 2010 at 07:44 |
It appears from the 60s to today things have gone up despite the recent downturn. What is the graph about? Murder rate? Rape, assaults, all violence? I was talking about all violent acts and assaults, not just murder rate. I've read much about the oft touted dip in crime in the last couple years and I don't buy it. Not based on what I've seen around me. Also, it would be interesting to see your graph applied only to the youth age group, not the entire population. Got the graph for 13-25 year olds only Henry?
Edited by Finnforest - August 03 2010 at 08:56
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Finnforest
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Posted: August 03 2010 at 08:19 |
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Henry, it is important you keep in mind what I really am getting at, and not simply pulling graphs out of your.... The violence rate does not need to increase to support what I said. I said desensitization and culture may cause the number of assaults/acts to be somewhat higher than it otherwise would be. Crime may go up or down for other reasons independent of culture, but culture has some impact on its own.
Thus, if you want to say violence is less in 09 than it was some other time, ok, but I'm saying it could even be a few blips lower without the lowbrow culture, which i believe makes a few prone kids less inhibited to act out aggression.
That slight difference in cases is still a lot of tragedy.
Edited by Finnforest - August 03 2010 at 09:15
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: August 03 2010 at 12:11 |
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So you're taking a position that can't be refuted with evidence?
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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TheGazzardian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 11 2009
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8815
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Posted: August 03 2010 at 12:55 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
So you're taking a position that can't be refuted with evidence?
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He's taking a case that requires much more specific evidence. Number of violent acts is a very broad thing to measure and there is more at play than violent video games and movies in existence.
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TheGazzardian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 11 2009
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8815
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Posted: August 03 2010 at 13:17 |
I'm gonna hop into this topic with a bit of a rant. So far this has been a very interesting topic, some very interesting points have been made and there are some people here who are very passionate about this (especially Rob) which is great.
First and forestmost, I think the biggest problem with the education system today is caring. I've noticed this again and again in my life. I could go, right now, and teach myself how to build a birdhouse. There are tons of videos on youtube, tons of tutorials, I know people who are good with carpentry, etc. etc...yet I'm not exactly hopping up at my next chance and building a bird house.
Why is that? Well, I'm 22 years old, and as far as I am concerned, it doesn't in any way help me. I'm old enough now that I don't need to learn things that I don't want to learn.
But do you think a 7 year old is really thinking to themselves, when their teacher starts teaching them multiplication, that, "I may not want to learn it, but I'm still in school so I should learn everything like a sponge?". Of course not! They are thinking, "Man, look at all that snow outside! I bet it's great for making snowballs. I can't wait until the recess bell goes off, then I'm gonna chuck snow at Johnny! Haha, snow is fun."
When you get older, you start to learn to appreciate learning. Especially learning things that make your life easier. I'm a programmer, and I consider myself blessed to be in this field. Because, as a programmer, I am on a computer connected to the internet all day long - and so are thousands of other programmers - so whenever there's something I want to learn, some other programmer has probably blogged about it, posted a tutorial, etc. So I'm constantly learning new things. Knowledge is easy for me to gain. Yet I don't go out there learning every possible thing about programming I can. There's too much! So I learn it on demand, when it's useful to me, and pick up other tips and tricks along the way.
I think the most salient point in the above paragraph is, knowledge you seek out, you know better! Simple!
But why would kids seek out knowledge? I mean, they're busy watching TV, playing video games, checking their facebook, and climbing trees. None of these things really require them to learn. I think this is the biggest gap between children caring about learning, and children actually learning. They don't -care-. They don't see how it effects them. "Do good now or you won't go to a good school, and then you won't get a good job!". Until you actually live by yourself, try and survive off a $10 an hour job, and see how much work it is just to make ends meet, that doesn't make sense to you. As a kid, $5 is a big deal. $20 so. And adults can make $100 in a day? WOW! They're all rich! Why do they need to make more than that? And you can get that job without going to a good school? Holy snot!
This is hard to pull off in todays day and age, where kids go home at the end of the day and their parents raise them however they want. But I think that kids play and energy needs to be directed in different ways. Ways where they might run into problems. "Okay, I'm playing with Johnny and Nakama, but Nakama speaks Japanese, not English! And we have six balls, but there are only three of us, how many balls do each of us get to play with?" And suddenly they start learning Japanese and division and it makes sense to them. They can apply it to their day to day life!
This is the biggest thing where I probably stand apart from a lot of people. I don't view the answer to educational problems as stemming solely from the education system. I think kids are given too much leeway and not enough responsibility. I think that they should be slowly ramping up skills as they grow, outside of school. Doing apprenticeships where they learn skills that they can use in the real world, and that also demonstrate clearly to them why what they are learning in school is important.
I think kids should start learning a foreign language as soon as possible, grade 1 if feasible. Why? First of all, psychologically, our brains are set to learn languages faster when we are young. So if we're going to learn a foreign language, that is the earliest time to do so. Secondly, I think most people tend to look at solutions as if there is only one. But if you know, English, and you know French, now you can say, "I want a piece of pie." in two very different ways. This is very valuable, because it teaches you to look at any problem as having more than one solution, and that there isn't really a way that is right every time. It's great you can ask the time of day in french, but if the person you are talking to doesn't understand french, it does you no good. But asking in English to a french speaker is just as useless. You must learn when to use each of these solutions to the same problem (learning the time of day). And it also teaches you that one is not better than the other - they both work in different cases. This "gray area", I think, is something that a lot of people these days don't really think about. In many cases, it seems people seem to look at things in either black or white.
I do think history should be taught to kids. One thing I've noticed in this generation is a sense of deserving that kids seem to think they have. They deserve this. They deserve that. I want McDonalds. Well, I answered a math question right today. I have EARNED McDonalds. Mom, buy me McDonalds. You're not buying me McDonalds? Here's a temper tantrum.
A lot of things that kids get today, they get for free. Everything their parents give them. Dinner. (If you don't give your kids dinner, they might get taken away). Bed. Education. The Internet. On the internet, so much is free - games, facebook, everything. You can download movies and music from torrents like nobodies business. I've seen ten year olds doing it. They feel that they deserve these things. This sense of deserving takes away appreciation. If so much is free, and you deserve it, why should you appreciate how precious it is? It's leading to a culture of waste and gluttony.
If kids were taught history at a young age, saw that just a few scant hundred years ago, children had to work the fields with their parents, or could just as easily be killed in a raid against their town, or that a large fraction of children didn't live to adulthood, they might appreciate free time and the things that they do have much better.
I also think Religion is important, in both an historical, an ethical, and a day to day sense. It's only recently in western culture that atheism has spread so fast. Religion is still an important part of the world, and understanding these religions, whether as cultures or as something that will potentially be part of that persons life, is important.
I think I've ranted long enough...for now. |
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Textbook
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Posted: August 03 2010 at 15:23 |
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People with this "Everybody is so violent now, the world is going to hell, kids are stupid and useless, things just get worse and worse" attitude should not be teachers. A worrying amount of teachers are like that and I find them to be ineffective as educators even though they genuinely don't know it and will swear to you that that they are making a difference.
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Finnforest
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Posted: August 03 2010 at 15:25 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
So you're taking a position that can't be refuted with evidence?
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I've not seen specific evidence which refutes the exact thing I'm talking about, which would be evidence showing that hard core negative media in no way desensitizes young minds or elevates negative behaviours. On the contrary, I have read about studies which appear to link media to behaviour though I don't think it is as dramatic as some of these studies do. (and no I'm not going to hunt them down, too lazy) But in my opinion Pat, numbers do not always provide the only basis for an opinion. Anecdotal evidence and observation are not completely worthless. I have seen and lived with young people in the 70s (and have a good idea what the 60s were like via my sibs), and I've seen and talked to young people these days, and if you don't believe the culture has had an effect on the sensibilities and behaviours of people, i think you are mistaken. But again, if you guys have *specific* info which proves today's harsher media culture does not elevate somewhat the rate of all violent acts in the youth age bracket, i would certainly entertain it. Pat, just curious, do you believe that the prevalence of this harder-edged media has absolutely no effect on the mindsets/attitudes/actions/ of the people taking it in? It's not a trick question, I'm just curious of your more general opinion. I know you don't believe in massive direct causal (nor do i, I believe the effect is present but modest), ........but do you believe personally there is absolutely no effect? An example I'm curious about. Back in the old neighborhood, teenage guys would have fights, of course. Fists would fly, guys would fight each other, and it would end with maybe a bloody nose or a some shiners. It was not a huge deal. These days, even if weapons don't come out, I have noticed that youth fights will too often lead to someone ending up on the ground, while the aggressor then proceeds to kick the losing guy in and about the head, just pummeling him so that medical attention is often needed, sometimes the person even dies. What has led to the incredible increase in severity of the fight? What has caused the simple teenage fistfight to often escalate to something profoundly different than it used to be? Is there absolutely no correlation with today's youth being exposed to much more glorified violence in TV, music, and gaming? If you think not, fine. But what do you think causes this difference in severity?
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Education & Learning
