Education & Learning
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Topic: Education & Learning
Posted By: Finnforest
Subject: Education & Learning
Date Posted: June 11 2010 at 09:32
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I’ve wanted to hear people’s thoughts on Education for some time, and recent discussion in the teenager thread reminded me. I want to hear from teachers especially, but also students and parents. Talk about your experience anywhere, not just the Are today’s kids getting a good education? If not, what specifically do you feel are the barriers? What needs to be done to improve and provide a well rounded education? What do we need in terms of teaching skills? Are teachers unions a barrier to good teachers, or do they help ensure good teachers? What responsibilities are parents/students living up to, or not living up to? What about charter schools, private schools, or home schooling? Are these a threat to public education, or do they make it better? What new techniques and technologies are truly worthwhile in the classroom, and what (if any) traditional techniques and tools should be kept? We hear a lot of blame game from politicians, and let me make clear, I do not want this to be a political debate. I want to hear what people really feel should change in our schools, to make them better and stronger. But let’s try to set aside political discussions about funding levels. That is a factor, but let’s talk about the other factors beyond that one. |
Replies:
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 11 2010 at 09:44
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So, who believes in God? Kidding Jim, kidding!  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 11 2010 at 10:01
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How about icons in schools? Just kiddin'  |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 11 2010 at 10:38
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I have very strong opinions about schools in the US. I've seen things from both sides (as a student and as a teacher). Here are my thoughts: 1. Schooling should not go beyond age 16. Six years of elementary schooling, then four years of secondary schooling. Done. Move on. 2. Many of the courses required in public schools prove to be worthless to the majority of students. How many of us use any math higher than basic algebra, for example? Public schools are essentially universities in themselves, and I do not think this is helpful. Course requirements should be pared down (more on that in a minute). 3. Zero tolerance for bullsh*t in high school. I mean this. You go to school and dick around? You are wasting taxpayers' money. You are robbing other students of a valuable eduction. You are not cute. No detention, no suspensions, no writing sentences 100 times. You get two warnings, and after that, you are out. See you at McDonald's. 4. No forced mainstreaming. That goes for kids with mental / behavioral issues or kids who can't read / speak / understand English. A teacher shouldn't have to dumb down lessons to accommodate others with special needs. I got so sick of having to jump through a million hoops to satisfy the ESOL (English for Speakers of Other Languages) and IEPs (individual education plans). Teachers can't even concentrate on the other 80% of the class. If you have special needs, you should be accommodated elsewhere until you can handle the rigor of regular classes like everybody else. 5. No state standardized tests. This is not to say they aren't good for anything, but after a lot of thought (and supporting them), I think we're better off without them. They cost a lot of money, and it's gotten to the point that teachers teach the test only, students freak out, and failing once means failing for the year. Bullsh*t. Teachers should be trusted to provide a rigorous curriculum, and held accountable if they do not (I knew teachers who gave word searches for extra credit that effectively passed students who goofed off all year. What good is that?). 6. Minimal homework. I mean this too. Would you like to go to work for 7-8 hours, then be sent home with 3 more hours worth of sh*t to do? No. Children should have time to be children. Other than some assigned reading, an occasional essay, or maybe a half-dozen math problems, no homework. 7. Here are basic classes students should be required to take and pass: -Algebra -Geometry -English (Grammar and Language) -Literature -Science (a general class on the scientific method, basic physics, biology, and chemistry) -US History -World History -Civics (this should go in depth with the Constitution, US government, law, taxes, and all things pertaining to citizenship in the US) -Life Skills (basic class dealing with avoiding/managing debt, how to balance a checkbook, how to budget, how to get a job, what to do if unemployed, how to do a basic tax return) -Physical Education (gym) -Health (nutrition, first aid, learning about and preventing disease including STDs, etc) -Religion (Islam, Judaism, Christianity with an emphasis on the Bible, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc) That's 12 requirements. If a school uses a semester schedule (which I support- 4 classes a semester instead of 7 or 8 all year), and students go for four years, that's 32 courses. That leaves 20 electives students can take to customize an education- foreign languages, art, music, higher level sciences, maths, histories, literature, mechanics, theater, etc). Computer skills should be integrated into the curriculum where appropriate. 8. Decent lunch with reasonable portions. Three chicken nuggets with a side of green beans, a roll, and a cup of milk is not enough for a 14-year-old male. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 11 2010 at 11:01
| Excellent points by Rob, obviously coming from someone who knows the system from the inside. The only point I don't agree with is No.3. |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: June 11 2010 at 11:11
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This is going to be a long and rambly post, so apologies in advance.. Some of you may have been aware that year I mentioned in passing that I was training to be a teacher. Specifically, I was training to teach Media Studies - a subject with a poor reputation in the UK, but in my opinion an increasingly vital aspect of any young person's education (but that's perhaps best left for another debate). Well, I abandoned my training roughly two months ago for a number of reasons, some of them not remotely related to the nature of the job I was undertaking, but there were aspects of the UK education system which played a definite role in my final decision to quit. In the seven months I spent working 4 days a week in two typical UK schools (both state schools, one in a rural area, the other inner-city) I got to see an awful lot... I saw a lot of very dedicated, overworked staff battling an overbearing and complicated ever-changing system obsessed with assessment to the detriment of actual teaching. Teachers are no longer expected simply to deliver lessons - they are managers, counsellors, organisers of special activities, child-minders, and more besides. The amount of responsibility and the competing demands on their time is immense. I had naively entered into teaching expecting it to be a secure job - turns out it's a career, a life choice. To be a successful teacher you have to be dedicated to improving the lives of young people and pretty much nothing else. Whatever happens, I hope this thread doesn't turn into parents bashing teachers without having the faintest understanding of the extraordinary work they do under immense pressure and endless constraints. Additionally, I saw a lot of dissatisfied students, many who simply had no wish to be there, no understanding of the importance of their education and absolutely no respect for each other, let alone most teachers (who I strongly believe must earn the respect of their students, not to simply expect it). I honestly think the situation is worse than it a mere five/ten years ago. Teachers have to persuade students and justify every single piece of work they set, they have to manage with vastly oversized classes, provide for children with all kinds of learning difficulties and prepare lessons which will challenge the very brightest students without alienating and frustrating those who are likely struggle with often simple work. Teachers can no longer expect A level (16-18) students to bring a pen to lessons. I've already touched on the biggest problem I think our education system is facing, and it's one that isn't likely to change under our new government - assessment. The British "league tables" system has meant that schools are now engaged in a constant battle for points. Every school wants to achieve the best possible results in order to maximise enrolment for the next year (every student is worth a lump sum added to the school's budget, let's not forget). This has resulted in a number of damaging things. Firstly, it's pushed teachers and schools towards training kids to pass exams. That's a very different thing to educating. Schools and teachers will do literally whatever it takes to ensure they get the highest possible pass rates because failing to do so carries with it all kinds of problems. This helps to render those results more or less meaningless, and a very poor reflection of an individual's level or learning or ability within a subject. Secondly, this grades-focussed approach has lead to the micro-management of day-to-day assessment. Students are all assigned target grades based on often spurious statistical data and their "achievement" is assessed merely by checking to see whether they are "on target" or not. I could go on for some time, I feel like I've barely scratched the surface here, but I'd better leave it for now. |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: June 11 2010 at 11:21
I missed this whilst I was writing my post (had to take a call in the middle of writing it) and I agree with you on a lot of your points, though obviously we're talking about different countries with different systems. However, I wanted to pick up on this one as I fundamentally disagree with it, though I can see exactly why you've come to this conclusion. What particularly worries me is that it doesn't take into account why students might "dick around" and whether there are fundamental problems that need to be dealt with there. The thought of a student with really severe problems beyond their control (unstable family scenario or whatever) being denied an education just because they dealt with their problems in an immature fashion doesn't sit comfortably with me at all. |
Epignosis wrote:Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 11 2010 at 11:35
First, your comments in your first post are spot on and really hit home for us in the US as well.  I did not do a very good job explaining #3.  Let me elaborate if may. You are absolutely right about problems at home. I of all people would understand that (given where I taught). At the same time, it simply isn't fair that students who are doing well have to put up with poor behavior (the same is true for teachers- teachers should be free to teach with minimal disruption). Perhaps problem students could be moved to an educational facility where they could learn as well as build character and get whatever special attention they need (I worked at a charter school that did this). The spirit of my #3 is simply that teachers and other students should not have to suffer on account of foolishness (whatever it's cause), that is all. I apologize if it came off as too harsh or not understanding.------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: June 11 2010 at 11:53
No worries, thanks for clarifying. You are absolutely right that teachers and students shouldn't have to put up with disruptive behaviour, but it's such a complicated problem to try and solve. There are also systems in place where really problematic students can be taken out of normal classroom environments and sent to so-called "pupil referral units" (which I imagine is not unlike the school you taught at) but I think this system reaches only the most challenging of students, and I expect there are thousands who would benefit from such an experience but never make it that far (presumably money is the overriding factor here... when is it not?). Mind you, I've no idea how effective these PRUs tend to be. The aim is to eventually send students back into mainstream education, but I imagine you end up with a lot of "repeat offenders". Personally, I have no valuable suggestions for how to deal with disruptive students. It was never a strength of mine during my brief tenure as a teacher. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 11 2010 at 12:04
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Some programs are more effective than others here. The one I taught at for two years was amazing. It only got closed down because of severe budget cuts, and we happened to be up for contract renewal that year. I also taught at a smaller such school, but it lacked any discipline whatsoever. It was also integrated in terms of gender (not good). Boys would hit girls, talk about sex in the classroom- whatever they wanted. And they got away with it. I quit after three weeks (especially since we the teachers were often held responsible). Complete rubbish, that school. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: June 11 2010 at 13:12
Hmm... I would've assumed that was the norm in the states. It certainly is over here these days. I've always felt that mixed gender schooling is preferable. Perhaps the most important thing about school is learning social skills to prepare you for life in the real world, outside the home. A friend of mine went to a girl's school, and she claims it just made boys seem like these strange, unknowable entities and made post-school life a lot tougher for her. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 11 2010 at 13:14
It is the norm, but not for a school of delinquents. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: June 11 2010 at 13:50
Ah, I see. Yeah, that might be a tad more problematic. |
Posted By: CinemaZebra
Date Posted: June 11 2010 at 16:08
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: June 11 2010 at 16:39
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I'm not exactly sure where to begin here. I'm only freshly out of college, meaning I have had very little time to reflect on my pre-college education. (Most of the time it has been on focused on college education pitfalls...buts thats not for this thread.) However, like most things in life I can mostly just point out problems, not offer solutions, which isn't too much of a help in actually fixing problems. But again, thats not for this thread. I've gone through 12 years of this public education system, and from what I've seen I'm not really a fan. I agree with alot of points brought up by Rob and David. The biggest problem I see is that teachers must teach to the test (meaning those achievement tests in 4th, 8th, 11th grade in the states) which is incredibly limiting. First of all, those tests test only math and english. While important, there's alot of the world left behind here. Science is one of the most important fields (IMO) that should be emphasised more in school. I also really like Rob's idea of a "Life's Skills" course. These topics are really left out in the cold. Even if you take a accounting/econmics class you really don't learn about avoiding debt, et al that Rob listed. Aside from these specifics, life skills seem to be thrown out the window completely in formal education. All that talk of learning more out of school then in school on how to survive in the real world is pretty sketchy, especailly if you don't have an upbringing with reasonable, intellegent parents/gardians/role models/etc to teach you these things that are very important, and that everyone will need.
I also agree that there is way to much of an emphasis on homework. No need to force students to do all that in one night. I remember, even back in middle school (grades 6-8) that we had summer reading assingments there they would give a list of (pretty terrible) books and we would have to read a specified number and complete an essay or book report or some further assignment based on the book(s) we chose. Well, I gotta say that really had the opposite effect. Alot of people I know were really turned off reading because they were forced to do it, over the summer, from a very sparse list of sub-par material. It certainly didn't increase my desire to read either. I can understand that summer could be a bit problamatic with forgetting recently taught materials, but perhaps these materials should be taught better in the firstplace. And we always reviewed the first week of classes anyway (at least in the lower grades).
But I guess my main grudge with my pre-college education (ironically very similar to my complaints with my college education) is that the teachers didn't really teach, or as I said, taught for the test. This is not a slight against the teachers themselves. I'm sure most were compotent people, that could actually teach, but for one reason or another they didn't. (Obviously there were just some bad teachers out there, but I suppose thats unavoidable.) Teachers should teach how to think for yourself, critical problem solving skills (and not just the kind in math where you need to find dimensions of a table), and not just be able to regurgitate information. Especially since in college that is certainly a more important skill. They should foster an positive attitude towards learning, and encourage students to constantly reach for more knowledge, inside or outside the classroom. Perhaps I'm just young and naive and you can't actually teach people these things. A utopian world I yearn for afterall....Either way, I believe in education. I think its very important. Knowledge is a keen weapon in life, and as I look around me at my peers (back then and even those that were in college with me) I am very saddened to see people not care about gaining knowledge and it frieghtens me a bit about the future when this generation gets more power. Perhaps other generations were just as fickle about these things at this age, obviously I have no way of knowing that, so maybe it all works out in the end afterall.
But then, that causes me to think. I have some excellent teachers over the years. But what made them so good? Is it that they made their classroom experience so much better that I was relaxed and open to creativity, possibilities, etc? Or did they just teach what was important in the long run? Or did they just have a special skill, where they really fit into the profession they chose? I'm leaning towards the first option myself. It seems to me that in an atmosphere thats enjoyable, comfortable, etc I'm more inclinded to be interested in what was being taught, even if I didn't really care for the subject matter. I guess this goes back to fostering that desire to learn, that the best teachers I have had certainly did. I suppose it also depends where in the education cycle you are as well. Though, there should always be plenty more to learn, and even in the last semester of 12th grade students should be taught something. Really taught. Of course, they are just so burnt out at that point, can students really care? But I'm rambling now...this point was brought up before.
So, to finish, I'll just say I did pretty well in high school. I'm sure a part of it was that I wanted to learn, to gain knowledge about the world (and conversely having people there that didn't care). But the point is, did it really prepare me for the real world? More than college did IMO, but probably not much in the grand scheme of things. Guess I'll find out, being I'm just knocking on that door now.
Apologies for a much longer post then I intended to make. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: June 12 2010 at 09:35
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My goodness there is so much great content here, and almost all of it are things I've heard echoed by parents before. -more discipline of problem students -less emphasis on standardized tests -more life skills training -less homework -targeted curriculum adjustments -simplification of mission So the question remains...if parents can figure out so many common sense solutions to improve K-12, why does it seem so difficult to get changes through to the classroom? What are the barriers to real reform? I've been out of the education system for so many years, I'd love to hear more from our younger set, those who are still in high school. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: June 12 2010 at 10:26
Eh, I don't buy the "unstable family directly correlates to behavioral problems" thing at all. If the kid is mentally ill/mentally unstable, of course having family problems may potentially exacerbate this. I can understand that, because I went through it personally as someone who lived their entire teen years and probably even longer than that with mental illness and having had problems with being able to really talk to my parents properly made things worse by wrecking havoc on my paranoia and anxiety issues. But there is no excuse for a kid who is completely mentally healthy, but just has family problems, to be acting up at school. If you have the luck of having a healthy mind, you should be able to make the good decisions not to act like a fool at school. If you choose to act like an idiot, an immature little brat, bring on the punishments. I've known more than a few kids who have had to endure pretty bad family situations (alcohol and/or drug addict fathers, divorced parents, fighting parents etc etc) but were always well behaved at school, because they were just mentally healthy. ------------- 
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 12 2010 at 10:55
I once had a student who would literally run laps through and around the school (this was at the crappy school I quit after three weeks). He would laugh at you and just run around. The teachers would have to chase him down and tackle him (again, really crappy school). Really smart kid, but Lord did he try us. Come to find out, he had no father at home, and his mother was on drugs. He took care of his sister and himself. He did the cooking. Meaning he had to act like a grown up the rest of the day. School was the only place he could be a kid. He was someone who needed more help than the system was prepared to give. And no, he didn't belong in the classroom if he was going to be disruptive, but he wasn't just being awful for no reason. But that's a more extreme case. I agree that in most cases, problem students should be held completely responsible for their own behavior. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: June 12 2010 at 11:11
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I agree with many of Rob's points. Maybe it's just because "Old Man Syndrome" has hit me WAY too early in life, but I find it almost impossible to relate to most kids in their mids teens despite the fact I'm only just barely out of my teen years (21 years old), just because of how many of them behave. The "Cool to be dumb" attitude is just absolutely rife in the lower socio-economic area schools in Melbourne, and obviously, a problem across the world, but this thread is more about the local, rather than global experience, so I'll speak about the issue in such a manner. Anyway, back to the "Cool to be dumb" thing. It just seems that teachers in Australia have absolutely zero idea of how to curb that problem. First off, it starts off as the kids that were raised with no father or something like that and as a result, it's totally screwed with them mentally, and they are constantly compensating for having no dad by acting tough, refusing to do the school work, effectively just making themselves dumb. Then there are the kids who don't really have the problems, just due to the fact they are bored teenagers who just don't give a sh*t about worldly things and understanding other cultures and haven't experienced real hard ship, they want to create their own culture, and create their own hardships and experiences. These kids want to get in on the aforementioned crowd who genuinely had it rough, and then it's just this vicious cycle. Kids that just come to school to socialize, to be "cool" and "tough", to "rebel" (which is by far the biggest irony, because the less educated and the less you understand, the less chance you have of being able to make a difference, which is why the true rebels are often highly educated, worldly, intelligent people). And then, it's not enough for these kids to play out their "Tough" and "Coolguy/girl" antics at school, so they take it to the street, in the form of harassing random people on the street, petty theft, assaults and even stuff like drug dealing. This really came to light recently when I was stopped by a few kids in their mid teens that asked me for a dollar, some cigarettes and then proceeded to ask if I'd just hand over my skateboard (I just kinda walked off, and I think they realized I was older than them and could absolutely smash their faces in with my skateboard if I needed too, so they laid off and didn't follow me). These are exactly the type of kids that want to be perceived by their peers are tough, and cool, and being too educated is considered nerdy and uncool , hence you're not gonna fit into the crowd. Yeah, teachers will go on about "peer pressure' as topics at school, but I know for me at my school, they sure as hell didn't really go into the core values that might have actually had a chance at penetrating the kids brains and making them understand the value of actually being educated and that being dumb is actually not at all cool, because inevitably in the long term, the "cool to be dumb" kids suffer most financially and with their general day to day standard of living. And perhaps, while I'm there, if kids play up, hell yeah, hand it to them real good, rather than a slap on the wrist with a 10 minute lunch time detention. Like in the US, kids that waste their time in schools here are wasting Australian tax payers dollars, so better that the kids use their time productively. If not, boot them out, and they'll understand real hardship, finding a job and being able to fend for themselves, which is going to too much time out of their lives for them to be worrying about standing around at train stations walking around with that pretentious tough kid attitude. History, an absolute must subject IMHO. A solid understanding of history helps to create more worldly people that understand there is something bigger and more important than themselves. Life Skills? HELL YES. Absolutely a great idea. Real computer skills are an absolute must too. It boggles my mind that 10 years into the 21st century, that I have to hear stories from IT techs getting calls from relatively young people asking about things like how to re-install a corrupt a driver for the printer so that the printer works or even idiots that call asking why stuff isn't working, but they haven't even turned the damn thing on. Some people think it's enough to just be able to click the mouse around use the web browser. NO, THAT ISN'T ENOUGH. People need how to actually learn to use a computer properly, understand what the hardware in their computer actually does to a reasonable degree, and to be able to troubleshoot every day problems. There is no excuse not to be able to do/know that kind of stuff if you're between the ages of 18-40, unless you were legitimately brought up in a ghetto house hold that couldn't afford a computer, but otherwise, for the well off first world peoples, there is NO excuse. I'm just inclined to think you're a complete drooling idiot if you don't understand the reasonable basics to properly get around a computer and to be able to solve problems and constantly have to call IT tech support. Religion? No, sorry Rob, but NO kid should have to be forced to do a religion class. A lot of your points were great, but you lost me on that one. Religion is not an essential thing and I know myself, as a staunch atheist, I would have been DAMN pissed off if I had to waste my time doing a religion class when I could be studying something like history or grammar. If a kid wants to do the religious class, cool, but putting kids through it even though a lot of them are not going to enjoy it at all and a fair chunk will be atheist. I personally also find some aspects of religion to be repulsive and offensive, and I would not want to be subjected to a class that would not at all sit well with me on a personal level. Anyway, I might have more later seeing as I have a pretty big beef with the Australian education system, but time for bed, heh. -------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 12 2010 at 11:26
Interesting. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: June 12 2010 at 11:30
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^ Stuff that happened vs. Fairy tales |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 12 2010 at 11:40
I think you are missing the point. When there are 2.1 billion Christians (of various sects), 1.5 billion Muslims, and almost 1 billion Hindus in the world, it would seem to be important to know what it's all about whether you subscribe to any religion or not. It's hard to understand history in context without understanding major religions, I would think. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 12 2010 at 12:14
I realize you don't want teachers to have to tolerate people causing trouble, but this is simply a horrible idea.I want stricter discipline, too. In my high school, it was that teachers who had cool subjects (theater, journalism) had the ability in the structure of the class to let the students do their own thing and reward their independence with a good grade if they did it well, and then they were considered cool. It's tougher for other teachers who don't have that freedom. Maybe this will be a deterrent to a lot of kids acting up, but here are some assured unintended consequences: 1) Rates of high school dropouts will skyrocket. Some kids won't obey, and you're just egging them on to quit school or be "fired" from it. Kids often don't know what's good for them, and graduating high school is 100% necessary. Times are not like they used to be. 2) You will turn school into a soulless institution. Some kids way get one or two warnings without catching themselves when they show human emotions in your robot school. Then they'll come to school worried every single day that they'll do something wrong and get fired from school. And you thought bullying was stressful. The point is students need to graduate high school in modern society. We should increase discipline up to, but never including expulsion for all but the most serious offenders.
I would probably put foreign languages in the required section, and for 2-3 years. I would add a course in Critical Thinking, Skepticism, and Philosophical Overview in the required section. Nothing but an overview of philosophy, but with an intense study in critical thinking to balance with all that religion fluff.  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 12 2010 at 12:15
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I'd like to see an emphasis on philosophy (and formal logic) from an early age. I'd rather philosophy/ ethics be taught than religious studies (religious belief systems would come into the philosophy course). I'd like to see more ideological studies, I'd also like a more holistic approach to learning where the connections between all of the courses are made clear to the students (and how it relates to one's life), and more emphasis on practical applications of the knowledge. Make it relevant. If you're teaching history, compare it to the issues of the day. One thing I found lacking in high-school/ elementary school which was very important to college was class discussion based on one's readings of the night before. The chance to actually discuss what we'd read made me want to do my reading and assignments. I was a very vocal student, which would get me into trouble in pre-university schooling, but in university I really appreciated the opportunity to share my perspectives. Forum-life has become a poor substitute for those classroom discussions for me. As for unions, they can cause problems with the quality of teachers due to the job security. In high school I had one teacher who instead of teaching would cut his toenails in class. He was terrible and bumped around from school to school since they couldn't fire him. Eventually they bumped him to a very high-paying administrative position (where he could do nothing) to get him out of the classroom. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 12 2010 at 12:33
I would agree, except the foreign language studies at every school I've ever been too is terrible. Very few people wind up even close to fluent the way languages are taught here. I don't know why, but it doesn't work. I took five years of Spanish (including two years in college). I have a very rudimentary understanding of the language. I can speak basic sentences slowly, read and write it to an extent, but I comprehend very little spoken Spanish. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: June 12 2010 at 13:36
Agreed. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 11:43
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New York gives credit for wrong answers. http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/how_do_you_pass_ny_school_tests_tCqFKo40FhcwkO5SoPYWRI - http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/how_do_you_pass_ny_school_tests_tCqFKo40FhcwkO5SoPYWRI Instead of pushing our youth to success, we broaden the definition of success. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 20:58
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Oh yes I did see this on break earlier today. Yeah, what a shock. I don't even want to comment. I'm taking a break from debate threads for a spell while I work on tunes with our new teamies. I don't know how I'm going to make it through this election cycle though, listening to these BS political ads on tv.....oh man. I'm switching off before a vessel bursts. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:00
Cheers Jim! Have a brew. I am. The sky won't fall at once. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:02
Well, too late tonight Rob, but this weekend.....the elixir of the Gods will flow
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:04
So shall the wrath of my wife if I stare at your signature a moment longer! ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:09
 Can't beat Cylons......they are built to be perfection. Was just reading your early post again, with your mulit-point plan. Great stuff there. I might use some of it if I get to jaw at some politicians at the Fair this year. |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:11
 You'd hate having me as your student.   |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:12
If you manage to make any profit, send me some beer money. And by profit, I mean...you should run for office... I didn't mean that at all. I just wasn't paying attention. Because I'm drinking beer. And it's late. And your signature. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:13
If you want I could stare a little while for you. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:14
Piss off, it's still my turn!  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:15
Do I get partial credit for at least trying? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:15
You don't know my history as a teacher, do you? I'll give you a hint. I wrestled in high school. The techniques I learned then helped me deal with situations that may or may not have come to pass in the school where I taught. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:16
*shrugs shoulders* Are partial erections possible?  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:18
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Honestly, I'm not the best student. I'm loud, I tend to swear quite a bit, I lots of times don't pay attention, and I'm all around a student teachers hate. But even when I don't pay attention, I still manage to get 80s-90s on my tests and large assignments because I'm all around really smart. I'm also the partying type (although lots of times I like to insult the music people play at said parties ).
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Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:20
There has to be an in between phase...  I think the fact that my chemistry teacher once tore a phone book in half kept my class in check, besides the trolls. It also helped that he was a bit of a pyromaniac. Weird first post on a page.  |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:21
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I taught at a school that only handled young people who had been kicked out of public school. It was the best job I ever had. How I do miss it. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:24
This makes me think... I've never been suspended in my life. I wonder why. |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:26
  Theres a The Work song I'm thinking of right now. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:28
I took a few bruises, but my students didn't mess with me. The only one who really tried didn't make it past my podium. Mr. Nelson got him first. Lucky him, I say. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:33
Oh jeez.  |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:34
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Epi, I did not read through the entire thread, but I noted a number of your original '8 theses' .
My son was a complete slacker in high school, as in doing just enough to get by. I went to parent night. His Chemistry teacher was aghast. "Do you know what your son said to me?" (I'm thinking, please don't let the answer be "I want to tittie f**k you.") I sez, "No." She sez, "He asked me what does it take to get a C in this class."
That's my boy. No aspirations in high school. But he was no idiot. He now has a Master's degree in Education from a very well-respected program, and would be teaching except 'round these parts they are laying off teachers, not hiring them. His student teaching was impeccable, connecting with the kids. He'd come home (he was doing the student teaching here) and complain about the slackers. "They just don't care. I don't get it" I sez, "It's just payback, dude. Ya reapin' what you sowed."
I think he'll do well. He does connect with the unmotivated kids, because he's been there, done that.
As an aside, I think for one of his high school history classes he skirted the final exam by making a CD mix of many of my Zappa albums for one of his teachers. Good enough. Happy student, happy teacher, and in the long run no harm done!
------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:35
Yeah, you could probably make me behave in that case. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:39
Hmph. Sounds like someone I used to know. *whistles* That's why I propose a shorter time in high school. Your son was a slacker in high school because he was probably too good for what they had to offer. Some of my students were slackers because they were amazing at things public school didn't prepare them for (like fixing cars, construction, or serving in the cost guard). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:50
The thing was man...most of the students in my class liked my class. Trust me- teachers can get bored just as much as students. We want to keep it interesting. Here are some things I did: 1. Jeopardy every Friday. We had our test, and after everyone was done, it was game show time with LIVE BUZZERS. Winners got full size candy bars. Fridays rocked. 2. Open book tests. Yep. Every one of them. No excuses. The book is there. You didn't read it because you weren't here that day? Get to reading now. I'll wait. 3. I dressed up as James f**king Joyce. No kidding. I wore the cap, eye-patch, beard, cane, and suit all day long and spoke in an Irish accent. My students had no idea what to think. Neither did my co-workers, because I acted the part in the breakroom too. 4. Study rock and rap lyrics. The kids loved this. Who says poetry was only written by dead white guys? Pink Floyd, Rush, Seven Nations, T-Pain, Tupac and so on. 5. Biggest thing- I wasn't out to get them, and made this clear. They just needed to put forth effort. They needed to learn they could succeed in something other than selling drugs or surviving in a gang (1/3 of my students were active members in gangs). I recall one student went to jail for months on a sexual assault charge. He came back to me asking for me to tell him about Jesus. He said he was tired of that life and wanted to be a preacher. That's when I say "f**k the separation of church and state," here's a kid who wants to move away from terribleness. I won't deny him that. And he didn't even know I was a Christian, because I never told my students that! I sure hope Johnny is doing all right. God I miss them.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:51
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I used to get awful grades in high school, but at every conference my teachers would go on about how smart I was. And then I started going to the tech center for half the day for the programming program and I had a solid A for the entire time I was there. In fact I spent the last month I went there goofing off.
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:52
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What classes did you teach? What grades? What kind of institution? Do you still teach? I wasn't aware you were a teacher. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:57
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Ahh Jeopardy games. Rare do we do those. I usually win or come close to winning, too. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:59
I taught English for two years in a charter school for those who had been kicked out of public school here in Central Florida. I taught High School boys (9-12 grade). Their choice was essentially to graduate from our program or go to jail. I do not teach anymore because in 2008, the school was up for contract renewal, and it didn't happen. This was due to major budget cuts across the state. Ironically, and unfortunately, other programs similar (and inferior) to ours are still open. I know because I applied and worked for two of them. They are absolutely horrendous. Zero discipline. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 22:00
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I used to get annoyed with open book tests, I prefer to plow through the test and be done with it.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 22:01
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Pat, you are in Philadelphia. Perhaps you know of CEP (Community Education Partners). That is for whom I worked. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 22:02
The book was always an option. If you didn't want / need it, then go for it. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 22:04
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I don't want to get into a whole big thing here, but I teach music and I was homeschooled my entire life until college. It seems to have worked for me. I'd like to take this opportunity to clear up some misconceptions about homeschooling. We did not have a designated class time. My parents did not teach me. I was never forced to study any subject. If I expressed an interest in something, my parents would get me a book and say "let me know if you need help or have any questions." When SAT time rolled around, they said "You need to do the following things if you want to go to college. Your call." So I did and scored quite well. Straight A's in a top ranked school.. I sincerely believe that children are built to learn and that if you don't stifle them by cramming education down their throats before they're ready (pre-school? Really?) they will do just fine. ------------- 
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 22:04
Cool stuff man. I enjoyed a brief stint teaching although I hated it. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 22:05
I was actually recruited by them. They're a good program from what I understand. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 22:05
Of course. And I generally didn't use it, until I was done anyway. Even then sometimes I was in the middle of a good book and decided to read that instead. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 22:09
| My older son is in a pre-school, but it's hardly "ramming education down his throat" - they learn in a way appropriate for their age, it's almost all play, and they mostly learn how to get along with other children, follow directions, etc. Children that young are sponges, anyway, you don't need any sort of rigid educational structure with them, they absorb everything they come in contact with. |
Posted By: NecronCommander
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 22:10
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Rob, you would have been the damn coolest teacher I would have ever had. I can't speak much about the public school system, since I have been fortunate to be in private schools all the way up to my current year (freshman in college.) However, your previous posts make me a tad worried. The things you did for you class and your students were brilliant, and they certainly agree with all of the statements you've made about your views on the education system (which I almost completely agree with as well), but I worry that it would be very easy to see those methods in the wrong light. I can see parents misinterpreting your techniques as tomfoolery or an "immature" approach to teaching. Just my 2 cents. But then again, I'm still a student myself and have a very limited view of the educational system in the United States.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 22:11
Amazing program for what they do, and I've seen a few. Not like some sh*tholes. The most recent sh*thole I worked with had no discipline. I witnessed boys assault girls, and nothing happen at an administrative level. One student talked sex during my lesson...I sent him out of the room to where they were supposed to go according to procedure...he came back eating candy five minutes later and resumed his explicit discussion. He should have been in jail, but that's how he repaid the leniency of the state. That'll teach 'em. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 22:13
Besides my philosophical issues with public education, its stuff like that I don't have the patience for. I don't know how you do it. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 22:15
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I once harbored a notion of trying to teach math somewhere but I want to teach, not babysit a bunch of jerks. Plus engineering pays better. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 22:16
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Ugh don't remind me of the practical superiority of your degree. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 22:16
My point was that different children are ready to learn things at different speeds. I was reading by age 3, my sister took much longer. Standardizing these things and saying "all children must be able to read by age 6" can be very harmful to a child's development. -------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 22:17
I can appreciate you feelings here. Trust me...I had a couple of minor run-ins with the administration.  I think it's all about context, really. These students needed to live what they learned. And learn how to live. If they died in a stunt or gang fight (and believe me, a couple of them did), then learning Shakespeare would do nothing for them! HOWEVER... Shakespeare happened to be one of the authors my boys loved the most. Julius Caesar was their favorite. It was all about trust, honor, and revenge- things that are similar to gang life. It also taught them how dangerous it was. Believe me, the curriculum was rigorous, but relevant. Jeopardy was more than a game, and they deserved it after working hard all week. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 22:23
1. A great staff. I loved the people I worked with. 2. A great administration. My students collectively wrote witness statements about me accusing me of racism. My administration realized they were full of sh*t and backed me up. They supported their staff. 3. A rapport with the students. A lot of these kids...they do come from sh*tty situations, but make poor choices in response. We just had to show them there was a better way to handle things. And we took care of them. Food, clothes- we didn't just sent them home needy. The other schools I worked for had none of these things. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 22:31
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Not to mention that if you can work your way through a Shakespeare play, parse the language, understand it, absorb it, you have a great ability to use that in the real world. As then you can understand a SQL stored procedure (just a language), and eventually make a decent living, if yer so inclined. It's all just language that follows rules and it's very easy to see where the rules are faulty. Not saying this would work for everyone, but it worked for me, a competent English Major who has been gainfully employed in high-tech for something like 25 years, in spite of it all. Purely educationally speaking, I have no business doing what I do for a living. On a broader scale, parsing a John Donne poem just ain't that different from solving why some networking thing isn't working. May not work for everyone, I dunno. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 15 2010 at 22:36
Believe it or not, a lot of youth don't make that connection at all. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: July 16 2010 at 06:47
| I think they're encouraged not to by teachers. Go tell an English department that resolving computer network issues is like reading John Donne and watch the incredulous spluttering commence. |
Posted By: shivareemoon
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 15:26
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This is my humble contribution to the thread...
I'm a teacher of English as a Foreign Language in Argentina I've graduated recently, some months ago. Today actually I handed out a questionnaire to a group of students for them to answer The questionnaire was about their likes and dislikes and they could remain anonymous (It is good when you start with a group to get to know them) The students are 13 to 16 years old- I imagine some of them are re-attending the course-
The thing is, a high percentage of them said their favourite type of movies was horror movies
I tend to think they don't like what they percieve about reality and horror movies work as an escape from it Am I wrong?
I also think teenagers are a vulnerable group which is in need of protection apart from education
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 15:31
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I like reality and I like horror films too
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 15:36
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I could write a LOT on this topic, but don't really have the energy (or inclination to do so here).
I'll just say that I'm a big believer in education, overall. It has been good for me, and I try to make it good for others (I believe I often succeed).
 As for "are kids getting a good education," that depends on the specific country, culture, school, teachers, curriculum and kids. Maybe so -- maybe not.  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: shivareemoon
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 15:49
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 15:59
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You're making a big logical jump from kids liking horror movies to that trivializing violence.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:01
If you haven't noticed yet, shivareemoon is really, really weird.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:02
Look, I like porn, but it's not like I'm going out and having sex or anything. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:05
This, though wouldn't call myself a "big believer in education", I certainly say that this thread has interested me and if I have the time and energy I'll write something from my own, student, point of view.
Great discussions, by the way, from Rob and Harry specifically.
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Posted By: shivareemoon
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:11
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weird in the good sense
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Posted By: shivareemoon
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:15
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Topic for another thread "Why do teenagers like horror films?" |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:19
I'm with you Shiv. I know the smart dudes around here don't agree with me, but I do believe there is a connection between violent/thug culture and a desensitization of behaviors. Most kids are still smart/good enough to do the right thing, but I believe excessive sex/violence in the culture does make it easier for *some* kids to cross lines. Most here disagree, but I'm with you. I believe there is a connection and that some kids are affected. Sadly the genie won't be going back, and the bar just keeps getting lower. |
Posted By: shivareemoon
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:22
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:23
I don't like horror films...
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Posted By: shivareemoon
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:24
| Goodie!!!! |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:26
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:40
 Otherwise, I might theorize these and other reasons:- Because teens are not children, but not yet adults -- their childhood fear of the dark (and what it might conceal) has not been entirely laid to rest.
- Because horror is gory, and thus offers a socially acceptable outlet for male teen angst and a testosterone-imbalanced apetite for blood and destruction. (See metal & gansta rap.)
- Because horror films often feature scantily clad, attractive young women... running!
 - Because the "bad" promiscuous girl character is usually the first to die -- this appeals to dateless nerds (of both sexes).
- Second to die is usually the victimizing jock -- nerds win again!
- Finally, because teens are crazy nocturnal monsters themselves, basically....  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: shivareemoon
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:44
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After all, it's only a questionnaire and it's only after a long while that one really know one's students
And...I prefer not to get into the topic Epignosis has just introduced Very interesting thread!
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 16:46
Well, you should know that I'm married, and that only half of the sentence I made was true. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 20:31
You have two things to confess to your wife then. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 02 2010 at 23:49
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llama, how on earth did your parents get away with self-study? As far as I know, every state requires you to take some tests to prove that you learned something or you have to go back to school, and you have to use some sort of curriculum that the state recognizes. And to argue with your point, how can you have a child be exposed to different viewpoints adequately if they're searching for all the information themselves? Unfortunately, humans are quite stupid, so once we form our opinions on something, we tend to reject any opposing evidence, and if your initial opinion is ill-informed this is bad! And if I were learning myself, I would never have actually studied Latin or math, and now I'm strongly considering going into a math based field. Although, to be fair, once I was in 7th grade or so I wouldn't have studied anything at all I just would have been on the internet all day....
If that were true, then it would make sense that the rate of violent crime in the US keeps going up with the increasing reach of TV, movies, and video games.  Oh wait, it's going down, that actually doesn't make any sense. And overall, this is one of the least violent periods in human history. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: August 03 2010 at 07:44
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It appears from the 60s to today things have gone up despite the recent downturn. What is the graph about? Murder rate? Rape, assaults, all violence? I was talking about all violent acts and assaults, not just murder rate. I've read much about the oft touted dip in crime in the last couple years and I don't buy it. Not based on what I've seen around me. Also, it would be interesting to see your graph applied only to the youth age group, not the entire population. Got the graph for 13-25 year olds only Henry? |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: August 03 2010 at 08:19
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Henry, it is important you keep in mind what I really am getting at, and not simply pulling graphs out of your.... The violence rate does not need to increase to support what I said. I said desensitization and culture may cause the number of assaults/acts to be somewhat higher than it otherwise would be. Crime may go up or down for other reasons independent of culture, but culture has some impact on its own. Thus, if you want to say violence is less in 09 than it was some other time, ok, but I'm saying it could even be a few blips lower without the lowbrow culture, which i believe makes a few prone kids less inhibited to act out aggression. That slight difference in cases is still a lot of tragedy. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: August 03 2010 at 12:11
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So you're taking a position that can't be refuted with evidence?
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: August 03 2010 at 12:55
He's taking a case that requires much more specific evidence. Number of violent acts is a very broad thing to measure and there is more at play than violent video games and movies in existence.
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Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: August 03 2010 at 13:17
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I'm gonna hop into this topic with a bit of a rant. So far this has been a very interesting topic, some very interesting points have been made and there are some people here who are very passionate about this (especially Rob) which is great. First and forestmost, I think the biggest problem with the education system today is caring. I've noticed this again and again in my life. I could go, right now, and teach myself how to build a birdhouse. There are tons of videos on youtube, tons of tutorials, I know people who are good with carpentry, etc. etc...yet I'm not exactly hopping up at my next chance and building a bird house. Why is that? Well, I'm 22 years old, and as far as I am concerned, it doesn't in any way help me. I'm old enough now that I don't need to learn things that I don't want to learn. But do you think a 7 year old is really thinking to themselves, when their teacher starts teaching them multiplication, that, "I may not want to learn it, but I'm still in school so I should learn everything like a sponge?". Of course not! They are thinking, "Man, look at all that snow outside! I bet it's great for making snowballs. I can't wait until the recess bell goes off, then I'm gonna chuck snow at Johnny! Haha, snow is fun." When you get older, you start to learn to appreciate learning. Especially learning things that make your life easier. I'm a programmer, and I consider myself blessed to be in this field. Because, as a programmer, I am on a computer connected to the internet all day long - and so are thousands of other programmers - so whenever there's something I want to learn, some other programmer has probably blogged about it, posted a tutorial, etc. So I'm constantly learning new things. Knowledge is easy for me to gain. Yet I don't go out there learning every possible thing about programming I can. There's too much! So I learn it on demand, when it's useful to me, and pick up other tips and tricks along the way. I think the most salient point in the above paragraph is, knowledge you seek out, you know better! Simple! But why would kids seek out knowledge? I mean, they're busy watching TV, playing video games, checking their facebook, and climbing trees. None of these things really require them to learn. I think this is the biggest gap between children caring about learning, and children actually learning. They don't -care-. They don't see how it effects them. "Do good now or you won't go to a good school, and then you won't get a good job!". Until you actually live by yourself, try and survive off a $10 an hour job, and see how much work it is just to make ends meet, that doesn't make sense to you. As a kid, $5 is a big deal. $20 so. And adults can make $100 in a day? WOW! They're all rich! Why do they need to make more than that? And you can get that job without going to a good school? Holy snot! This is hard to pull off in todays day and age, where kids go home at the end of the day and their parents raise them however they want. But I think that kids play and energy needs to be directed in different ways. Ways where they might run into problems. "Okay, I'm playing with Johnny and Nakama, but Nakama speaks Japanese, not English! And we have six balls, but there are only three of us, how many balls do each of us get to play with?" And suddenly they start learning Japanese and division and it makes sense to them. They can apply it to their day to day life! This is the biggest thing where I probably stand apart from a lot of people. I don't view the answer to educational problems as stemming solely from the education system. I think kids are given too much leeway and not enough responsibility. I think that they should be slowly ramping up skills as they grow, outside of school. Doing apprenticeships where they learn skills that they can use in the real world, and that also demonstrate clearly to them why what they are learning in school is important. I think kids should start learning a foreign language as soon as possible, grade 1 if feasible. Why? First of all, psychologically, our brains are set to learn languages faster when we are young. So if we're going to learn a foreign language, that is the earliest time to do so. Secondly, I think most people tend to look at solutions as if there is only one. But if you know, English, and you know French, now you can say, "I want a piece of pie." in two very different ways. This is very valuable, because it teaches you to look at any problem as having more than one solution, and that there isn't really a way that is right every time. It's great you can ask the time of day in french, but if the person you are talking to doesn't understand french, it does you no good. But asking in English to a french speaker is just as useless. You must learn when to use each of these solutions to the same problem (learning the time of day). And it also teaches you that one is not better than the other - they both work in different cases. This "gray area", I think, is something that a lot of people these days don't really think about. In many cases, it seems people seem to look at things in either black or white. I do think history should be taught to kids. One thing I've noticed in this generation is a sense of deserving that kids seem to think they have. They deserve this. They deserve that. I want McDonalds. Well, I answered a math question right today. I have EARNED McDonalds. Mom, buy me McDonalds. You're not buying me McDonalds? Here's a temper tantrum. A lot of things that kids get today, they get for free. Everything their parents give them. Dinner. (If you don't give your kids dinner, they might get taken away). Bed. Education. The Internet. On the internet, so much is free - games, facebook, everything. You can download movies and music from torrents like nobodies business. I've seen ten year olds doing it. They feel that they deserve these things. This sense of deserving takes away appreciation. If so much is free, and you deserve it, why should you appreciate how precious it is? It's leading to a culture of waste and gluttony. If kids were taught history at a young age, saw that just a few scant hundred years ago, children had to work the fields with their parents, or could just as easily be killed in a raid against their town, or that a large fraction of children didn't live to adulthood, they might appreciate free time and the things that they do have much better. I also think Religion is important, in both an historical, an ethical, and a day to day sense. It's only recently in western culture that atheism has spread so fast. Religion is still an important part of the world, and understanding these religions, whether as cultures or as something that will potentially be part of that persons life, is important. I think I've ranted long enough...for now.
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: August 03 2010 at 15:23
| People with this "Everybody is so violent now, the world is going to hell, kids are stupid and useless, things just get worse and worse" attitude should not be teachers. A worrying amount of teachers are like that and I find them to be ineffective as educators even though they genuinely don't know it and will swear to you that that they are making a difference. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: August 03 2010 at 15:25
I've not seen specific evidence which refutes the exact thing I'm talking about, which would be evidence showing that hard core negative media in no way desensitizes young minds or elevates negative behaviours. On the contrary, I have read about studies which appear to link media to behaviour though I don't think it is as dramatic as some of these studies do. (and no I'm not going to hunt them down, too lazy) But in my opinion Pat, numbers do not always provide the only basis for an opinion. Anecdotal evidence and observation are not completely worthless. I have seen and lived with young people in the 70s (and have a good idea what the 60s were like via my sibs), and I've seen and talked to young people these days, and if you don't believe the culture has had an effect on the sensibilities and behaviours of people, i think you are mistaken. But again, if you guys have *specific* info which proves today's harsher media culture does not elevate somewhat the rate of all violent acts in the youth age bracket, i would certainly entertain it. Pat, just curious, do you believe that the prevalence of this harder-edged media has absolutely no effect on the mindsets/attitudes/actions/ of the people taking it in? It's not a trick question, I'm just curious of your more general opinion. I know you don't believe in massive direct causal (nor do i, I believe the effect is present but modest), ........but do you believe personally there is absolutely no effect? An example I'm curious about. Back in the old neighborhood, teenage guys would have fights, of course. Fists would fly, guys would fight each other, and it would end with maybe a bloody nose or a some shiners. It was not a huge deal. These days, even if weapons don't come out, I have noticed that youth fights will too often lead to someone ending up on the ground, while the aggressor then proceeds to kick the losing guy in and about the head, just pummeling him so that medical attention is often needed, sometimes the person even dies. What has led to the incredible increase in severity of the fight? What has caused the simple teenage fistfight to often escalate to something profoundly different than it used to be? Is there absolutely no correlation with today's youth being exposed to much more glorified violence in TV, music, and gaming? If you think not, fine. But what do you think causes this difference in severity? |