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Certif1ed View Drop Down
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2010 at 09:23
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:


My only point was that merely playing a song with the intstruments tuned to 432 Hz instead of 440Hz does not change much in terms of listening pleasure, except for people with perfect pitch.
 
 
You can't simply say it has little or no effect if you haven't bothered to measure it (which is the point of this discussion, after all).
 
That's just lazy.


Edited by Certif1ed - July 05 2010 at 09:25
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2010 at 12:34
^ and how exactly do you measure listening pleasure? 
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Points: 4160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2010 at 12:40
By pleasurometer, you silly!
Percussion, sir!
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mono View Drop Down
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Points: 652 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2010 at 03:50
^ I'm sure scientologists have a device just for that!
https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence
https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects
https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2010 at 04:29
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ and how exactly do you measure listening pleasure? 
 
How exactly can you comment on whether or not it is affected if you don't even know how to measure it?
 
You really haven't been folowing this thread at all, have you?
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2010 at 04:46
^ well, how can you comment on the beauty of a painting if you can't measure it? Simple: You just do.

I haven't read every post of this thread - but I don't have to. I'm pretty sure that none of the posts contains a perfect recipe for quantifying enjoyment of music.
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2010 at 05:23
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ well, how can you comment on the beauty of a painting if you can't measure it? Simple: You just do.

I haven't read every post of this thread - but I don't have to. I'm pretty sure that none of the posts contains a perfect recipe for quantifying enjoyment of music.
 
I simply mean that you've said that you can't tell the difference - and yet you haven't even tried, so I was wondering how you could possibly know.
 
My posts have at least suggested ways in which it might be measured and tested - the notion that there might be a "recipe" is, after all, the entire point of this thread (you should read it sometime - it's jolly interesting).


Edited by Certif1ed - July 06 2010 at 05:23
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2010 at 05:28
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ and how exactly do you measure listening pleasure? 

Listening is never a pleasure, which is why I listen to prog.  Hours and hours of guaranteed listening agony. LOL

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ well, how can you comment on the beauty of a painting if you can't measure it? Simple: You just do.

I haven't read every post of this thread - but I don't have to. I'm pretty sure that none of the posts contains a perfect recipe for quantifying enjoyment of music.

Speaking of measuring paintings, I give you, Salvador Dali's masterworks...

http://www.salvadordalimuseum.org/collection/collection_highlights.html

Go for the really big ones. Tongue

The Discovery of America by Christopher Columbus (1958-1959)

Dalí's tenth masterwork is The Discovery of America, completed in 1959. This work, which is almost 14 feet tall...
Discovery of America by Christopher Columbus, Dali
The Ecumenical Council (1960)

This canvas honors Pope John XXIII for uniting the churches through the Ecumenical Council. The coronation of...
The Ecumenical Council, Dali
Galacidalacidesoxiribunucleicacid (Homage to Crick and Watson) (1963)

This unusually titled work is called Galacidalacidesoxiribunucleicacid, and subtitled “Homage to Crick and Watson."...
Galacidalacidesoxiribunucleicacid (Homage to Crick and Watson), Dali


The Hallucinogenic Toreador (1969-1970)

Dalí conceived this painting while in an art supply store in 1968. In the body of Venus, on a box of Venus pencils,...
The Hallucinogenic Toreador, Dali


These four are amazing and may help you with the 432 Hertz rent-a-car affect. TongueLOL

http://www.salvadordalimuseum.org/


Edited by Slartibartfast - July 06 2010 at 05:33
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 512 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 03:15
 
I couldn't hear any difference, except the 432hz version was slightly slower.
 
It wound me up, no end.
 
 
 
 

 Dali @ 432hz. 
 
320 X 240, btw.
 
 
 


Edited by Rabid - July 08 2010 at 04:06
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Points: 512 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 04:40
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

There's no difference - it's all relative. Why not use 441Hz, or 421Hz, or 445Hz? As long as the whole piece is in tune, I couldn't care less.
 
Exactly.......and you're ALWAYS going to have trouble locating a tuning-fork @ 432hz, anyway......not many people make them.
 
But if you want to try a REAL experiment, have your keyboard player tune at 440hz, bassist tune at 257hz,
guitarist tune at 569hz and singer sing at 16hz (slip him some Mandrax), and spend the evening seeing how many beer-cans you can succesfully dodge. Your singer might take a few hits, but I bet he'll be the most 'relaxed'.
"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 05:10
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ well, how can you comment on the beauty of a painting if you can't measure it? Simple: You just do.

I haven't read every post of this thread - but I don't have to. I'm pretty sure that none of the posts contains a perfect recipe for quantifying enjoyment of music.
 
I simply mean that you've said that you can't tell the difference - and yet you haven't even tried, so I was wondering how you could possibly know.
 
My posts have at least suggested ways in which it might be measured and tested - the notion that there might be a "recipe" is, after all, the entire point of this thread (you should read it sometime - it's jolly interesting).


I often play the guitar while it isn't tuned precisely to 440Hz ... but I've never noticed any difference.
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Points: 512 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 05:10
Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:

Quote Originally posted by Petrovsk Mizinski


But having made my own recordings and getting them to sound fairly loud (not as smashed as the most smashed of today's stuff, but still pretty loud), I understand it's a process that starts from playing tightly, tracking at appropriate levels, getting the frequency balance in the mix right, using clipping to tame transients on drum tracks, and further using clipping to tame transients to keep stuff out of the red zone, and that compression is only really used for shaping the attack, release, sustain or general tonality of an element in the mix and not as some kind of loudness booster.


Your description of compression is correct (other than the use of the term clipping - you don't want anything to clip or you will get unwanted distortion), but one of the most important elements in the mastering processing chain is Limiting, which is a specialized compressor designed to maximize the loudness of the track. This is used in all modern masters to bring it up to broadcast levels consistent with other releases, and is what is being misused in the aforementioned loudness war.
 
You're telling me, m8........TV stations do it all the time. REALLY p*sses me off when you're watching a programme, and then the ads come on at full blast.....you have to turn them down.....then the programme comes back on and you can't hear it, so you have to turn it back up again. Sorta gets on yer tits when you have to do it 30 times per night. Why cant they just set the limiter at -16Db and adjust the goddam master volume on the mixer????????????????????
 
Angry
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 05:12
Originally posted by Rabid Rabid wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

There's no difference - it's all relative. Why not use 441Hz, or 421Hz, or 445Hz? As long as the whole piece is in tune, I couldn't care less.
 
Exactly.......and you're ALWAYS going to have trouble locating a tuning-fork @ 432hz, anyway......not many people make them.



I won't bother locating any tuning-fork, since my amps had tuners built in since about 1995. Wink And for most of them you can adjust the reference pitch to 432Hz, if you want to. Most digital keyboards also allow for micro-tuning.

Originally posted by Rabid Rabid wrote:


 
But if you want to try a REAL experiment, have your keyboard player tune at 440hz, bassist tune at 257hz,
guitarist tune at 569hz and singer sing at 16hz (slip him some Mandrax), and spend the evening seeing how many beer-cans you can succesfully dodge. Your singer might take a few hits, but I bet he'll be the most 'relaxed'.


Well put, but besides the point of the thread.Wink
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Points: 652 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2010 at 05:28
Originally posted by Rabid Rabid wrote:

 
You're telling me, m8........TV stations do it all the time. REALLY p*sses me off when you're watching a programme, and then the ads come on at full blast.....you have to turn them down.....then the programme comes back on and you can't hear it, so you have to turn it back up again. Sorta gets on yer tits when you have to do it 30 times per night. Why cant they just set the limiter at -16Db and adjust the goddam master volume on the mixer????????????????????
 
Angry


Because the only limitations ads have on their audio is a dynamic limiation. So they compress like animals so that you HEAR THE PUBLICITY VERY WELL.
When you buy a publicity spot and deliver your ad, the TV/Radio station is NOT allowed to tweek your volume down, unless it doesn't comply with the dynamics allowed (clipping etc...).

TV Programs (in general) on the other hand seek a better dynamic (a whole show generally has more dynamic changes than a 30sec ad), so the general volume is lower.


Edited by mono - July 12 2010 at 05:29
https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence
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https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else
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Points: 3 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2010 at 13:37
Originally posted by friso friso wrote:

Originally posted by TheGazzardian TheGazzardian wrote:



Originally posted by Petrovsk Mizinski Petrovsk Mizinski wrote:


Originally posted by Atomicunderware Atomicunderware wrote:

Unfortunately I think for this to really have any impact the instruments would need to be tuned using 432Hz prior to them being tracked. Interesting concept though, I had never heard of this before, I just took 440Hz for granted...
Not quite sure what modern mastering techniques have to do with the discussion, but there you go...
If you bothered to read my post, I was talking about how gullible some of the members of PA are, and how it kinda throws out the window the idea that all "proggers" are intellectuals.My idea of an intellectual is not that of someone who just reads any random article written with a bunch of unfounded garbage and just believes it because they're told it's true.

I would say that Friso has proven that he is not gullible in this sense - he is actually performing a test on these forums to find out if what he has read is true or false, instead of taking it on faith. That seems like the definition of science / verifying what he's heard to me.
I tried listening to both and didn't notice any huge difference between the two at all to be honest - I noticed a feel of slight more calm listening to the 432 one but I'm not sure if that's because my brain expected me to or not. I recommend finding a way to test this effect without letting people know what it is your testing, so you that this effect is avoided. Also, testing it in different orders (432 first/440 after) etc. with different people.



I totally agree! There are way better listening-test available. The fact you hear the difference in pitch makes it however hard to hide which sample is heard.

Why 432 Hz? Because it has been used for more then two thousand years all over the world. Furthermore I find it interesting that people think ancient civilizations would go threw so much as building complete concrete temples out of amazingly heavy rock to build a sound-resonating system that has no use at all. Why always see ancient people ;ole Egyptians as imbeciles? Let's try to find out if they were perhaps right! That's what this experiment is about.

Furthermore I don't thing it has anything to do with figures. The Hz is based on the second and the second is a human invention that has no logical or important length in physics.

And finally... there's a small range in the electro magnetic radiation we call 'light', to witch we respond best. There are a certain amounts of smell's we can decipher best. Why not a certain frequency for sound?
to the bolded, seriously, the second is an arbitrary unit of measure but that doesnt mean you can just deny the whole frequency thing. if you used a different unit of measure the frequency wouldnt dissappear it would just be another arbitrary number describing the same phenomena. sounds like a relativity argument to me and with relativity everyones right Tongue
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Points: 2 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2011 at 10:23
Originally posted by friso friso wrote:

Originally posted by TheGazzardian TheGazzardian wrote:



Originally posted by Petrovsk Mizinski Petrovsk Mizinski wrote:


Originally posted by Atomicunderware Atomicunderware wrote:

Unfortunately I think for this to really have any impact the instruments would need to be tuned using 432Hz prior to them being tracked. Interesting concept though, I had never heard of this before, I just took 440Hz for granted...
Not quite sure what modern mastering techniques have to do with the discussion, but there you go...
If you bothered to read my post, I was talking about how gullible some of the members of PA are, and how it kinda throws out the window the idea that all "proggers" are intellectuals.My idea of an intellectual is not that of someone who just reads any random article written with a bunch of unfounded garbage and just believes it because they're told it's true.

I would say that Friso has proven that he is not gullible in this sense - he is actually performing a test on these forums to find out if what he has read is true or false, instead of taking it on faith. That seems like the definition of science / verifying what he's heard to me.
I tried listening to both and didn't notice any huge difference between the two at all to be honest - I noticed a feel of slight more calm listening to the 432 one but I'm not sure if that's because my brain expected me to or not. I recommend finding a way to test this effect without letting people know what it is your testing, so you that this effect is avoided. Also, testing it in different orders (432 first/440 after) etc. with different people.



I totally agree! There are way better listening-test available. The fact you hear the difference in pitch makes it however hard to hide which sample is heard.

Why 432 Hz? Because it has been used for more then two thousand years all over the world. Furthermore I find it interesting that people think ancient civilizations would go threw so much as building complete concrete temples out of amazingly heavy rock to build a sound-resonating system that has no use at all. Why always see ancient people ;ole Egyptians as imbeciles? Let's try to find out if they were perhaps right! That's what this experiment is about.

Furthermore I don't thing it has anything to do with figures. The Hz is based on the second and the second is a human invention that has no logical or important length in physics.

And finally... there's a small range in the electro magnetic radiation we call 'light', to witch we respond best. There are a certain amounts of smell's we can decipher best. Why not a certain frequency for sound?
 
 
From what I have I read about tuning pitches in Europe, it was anything BUT one fixed pitch. (such as 432) I don't know about around the rest of the world, but it isn't true until you can prove it, and good luck proving what pitch people in Tibet (or what have you) were using 2000 years ago.
 


Edited by Musicgeek412 - March 22 2011 at 10:27
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Points: 2 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2011 at 10:38
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:



Your description of compression is correct (other than the use of the term clipping - you don't want anything to clip or you will get unwanted distortion),
 
It may be that the distortion is wanted... Tongue
 
Of course, with digital recording, clipping does result in unwanted, or at least, very unpleasant distortion.
 
In analogue systems, the distortion created by clipping can add warmth or excitement, depending on which frequencies are causing the clipping.
 
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

There's no difference - it's all relative. Why not use 441Hz, or 421Hz, or 445Hz? As long as the whole piece is in tune, I couldn't care less.
 
Of course there's a difference - if the key pitch is different, the entire piece will sound different and have a different "flavour". This is something that J. S. Bach explored when he wrote the 48 preludes and fugues.
 
Recently, I heard a remaster of Led Zep II on the Quiex label, and hated it. I ran it back to back with my first pressing on the same system, to prove that it wasn't simply the equipment making it sound unfamiliar, and it turned out that it had been remastered at a slightly different speed, which raised the pitch by nearly a semitone.
 
This is the equivalent of making A > than whatever frequency was originally used, so the difference is entirely tangible.
 
Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

I was gonna post something here relevant and interesting, but then I noticed the thread was flame warDead
 
I don't see any flaming Confused
Yes, and no.
 
It is pretey clear just by listening that different intervals have more porfound effects than different fixed pitches. And THIS is actually what Bach was taking advantage of.
 
What I mean was, the way Bach tuned his keyboard, B-C wouldn't have been the same as C-Db, nor C-E the same as Eb-G. This actually gave the keys more distinguasable colors, something we don't have in equal temperament.
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Points: 1601 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2011 at 13:46
This really doesn't make any sense.  A pitch out of context affects you no differently than other pitches (other than really high or really low), its intervals that elicit the tension/dissonance/consonance.  It's pretty easy for something to "seem" more relaxing when someone says "these are often more relaxing, listen to it."  Yeah the other day when playing fretless I did notice how calm everybody got when I slid down a little below the fret.......please.

Not to mention, have fun if you're playing with any real ( I say real instead of analog because I hate digital equipment) keyboards.  I don't know about you, but tuning my Hammonds isn't my favorite thing to do.

AND WOW TO COMMENTS ABOUT REMASTERS BEING AT A DIFFERENT SPEED!!!  That difference in sound has nothing to do with the overall pitch (yes it is slightly altered) and has to do with the tone being different due to the entire speed of the album being altered (to achieve the different pitch).  For example, the drums are going to sound much different (see the mixes of Turn of a Friendly Card for an example).  Do people think?  If you're favorite song had been played a half step down from the beginning you wouldn't feel any differently about it.


Edited by himtroy - March 22 2011 at 13:52
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Check out www.pentagonalskies.com. It's a full-length rock opera recorded completely with A=432Hz tuning.  You can listen to and read along with the entire production online (free of charge).  Definitely worth the time!
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^ Welcome aboard. Wink
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