The 432 hz effect.. please help!
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Topic: The 432 hz effect.. please help!
Posted By: friso
Subject: The 432 hz effect.. please help!
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 06:33
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Hey there, I would like to ask PA members to join this experiment.
Throughout the course of history the pitch of music was based on the A-note being played on 432 Hz. In a lot of cultures it was (and still is) believed this is the optimal pitch for spiritual and relaxed listening. In the '40 of the previous century it was determined that the pitch of music should be based on a A-note of 440 hz. A lot of musicians protested against this decision. Recently I discovered this and started testing the difference between the two. I play the electric guitar and have decided to play on the 432 hz ancient standard due to the result. I would like to ask every-one to listen to these two samples (normal version and 432 hz version) of Pink Floyd - Marooned. Please comment whatever your experience was! I'm studying to become a music therapist and I want to use this information for a survey in the future. Many thanks! Friso Pink Floyd - Marooned (original) Pink Floyd - Marooned in 432 Hz |
Replies:
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 06:37
| Something's gone wrong with your links. |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 06:38
| sorry, i've been trying to get the movies into my post, but I don't know how it works... |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 06:44
| Use the insert hyperlink button and just add the URLs. |
Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 06:47
Wow, I thought that retuning made a huge difference since I immediately felt much calmer and relaxed when listening to the track... now how am I suppose to get back to my work after this? 
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 06:51
| I can't say what the difference is, but the original version sounded much better to my ears. |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 06:53
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Here's another one for metal-heads. Though I don't think it's the perfect sample, it does show the difference impact.
Metallica - Blackened original http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU_ggFovJNo&feature=related Metallica - Blackened 432 Hz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvvSEwDEd90 |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 07:05
| @Metallica: this time I don't hear any difference, except for what seems to be the effects of a stronger compression for the 432 HZ version. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 07:22
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I've seen this topic posted on many other forums that have anything to do with music. It's all garbage. I cannot think of anything more retarded than worrying about whether the album you are listening to was played based around the A note being a frequency of 432Hz rather than 440Hz. Sorry, but you have to be an idiot to buy into this theory that music based around the A note of 432Hz is somehow inherently more relaxing. When this was posted on Sevenstring.org, every single person there (since they are all musicians, unlike PA where not everyone is a musician) that posted in the thread apart from the OP who was trying to sell his theory, knew it was full of sh*t and just an absolutely absurd concept. ------------- 
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Posted By: The Runaway
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 07:28
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Petrovsk, do you have a SINGLE post where you're not angry at the OP?
------------- http://www.formspring.me/Aragorn224" rel="nofollow - Trendsetter win! The search for nonexistent perfection. |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 07:31
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^ Thank you for your constructive comment. However, I don't understand how people can 'know' it's bullsh*t since there is no collective way of perceiving music, nor is there a way to measure it.
I can understand musicians feel opposed to the suggestion of playing on 432 Hz, because it would make playing on some instruments quite difficult. It's hard to re-tune a piano and it get's even worse on a pitch perfect keyboard. But all this has nothing to do with this experiment. Please just listen to the samples and write about your experience. And though I can understand your very critical, I would like to read about just that. |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 07:55
Same here, although maybe if I didn't listen to them side-by-side it might be different. FWIW, I still love the end of that song.  |
harmonium.ro wrote:Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 08:47
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I don't understand this forum sometimes. For example, I'll see threads where people are talking about the loudness wars, and how "compression is killing music and making it too loud". Why do people say this? Because it's what they read in a bloody article that told them so. Don't worry about critical thinking and you know, actually researching the topic at hand, just believe what some stupid journalist tells you. Any audio engineer worth his salt will tell you that very heavy compression on single tracks has been something going on for decades, well before today's current trend of quite loud records. This tells me compression itself isn't really at fault. If I tell people the actual reasons why records have got so loud, and discuss the techniques used to get there, like limiting, clipping, getting the frequency balance right in the mix as to be able to get a louder mix without the bass farting out too much in mastering, and the fact that loud sounding records actually starts all the way from the way the musicians play and the tracking process, I'll just get blank stares, because that's not what it said in the brain dead article that told you "It's all the fault of compressors/compression!". But having made my own recordings and getting them to sound fairly loud (not as smashed as the most smashed of today's stuff, but still pretty loud), I understand it's a process that starts from playing tightly, tracking at appropriate levels, getting the frequency balance in the mix right, using clipping to tame transients on drum tracks, and further using clipping to tame transients to keep stuff out of the red zone, and that compression is only really used for shaping the attack, release, sustain or general tonality of an element in the mix and not as some kind of loudness booster. This is the result of actually trying something first hand, using critical thinking and just thinking for myself, rather than just being spoon fed what someone who has no idea what they're talking about wants me to believe. Now, more back to the topic at hand, read this article: http://www.omega432.com/music.html - http://www.omega432.com/music.html The opening paragraphs for example " 432hz vibrates on the principals of the golden mean PHI and unifies
the properties of light, time, space, matter, gravity and magnetism with
biology, the DNA code and consciousness. By retuning musical instruments and using concert pitch at 432 hertz instead of 440 hertz, your atoms and DNA starts to resonate in harmony with the PHI spiral of nature." Does anyone here that possesses a brain, actually believe/buy into that? Tell me, someone, honestly tell me you think that isn't one of the most absurd and ridiculous things you've read in your life. I'm no genius by any stretch of the imagination, but via critical thinking, I am able to see that the guy who wrote this article is probably a complete whacko. Metallica's Ride the Lightning album is in fact, ABOVE the 440Hz A center, but did it stop millions of people from buying and enjoying the hell out of it? However the music was written, in whatever tuning, was how the artist intended for you to enjoy it. If it didn't sound good at 440Hz, it will not sound better at 432Hz. In fact, by the poor logic of some of the pro-432Hz articles, why stop at tuning down 8Hz? Surely it would sound better at 431Hz then? 429Hz? 420Hz? See what I mean, it just gets more and more ridiculous and absurd. Read this thread too http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/general-music-discussion/57796-432-hz.html - http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/general-music-discussion/57796-432-hz.html You'll notice a member called "GandalfDaBlack" who joined the forum just to push the 432Hz theory(as well as that idiot Brian T Collins, who made an account called "432Hz" just to plug his article) None of his arguments make any sense and you know what? At the end of the day, everyone just kept enjoying music, regardless of whether the guitars/bass guitars were tuned to C standard 430Hz, Bb standard 442Hz or drop A 437Hz. -------------
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 08:59
Quite a few in fact. -------------
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Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 09:04
I have read some. :D Blackened didn't change very dramatically either, btw. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 09:16
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Petrovsk, you still haven't explained why you think this is such nonsense other than that "it's obvious." That is not very scientific. I'm not saying it's true, but there are such things as resonance frequencies and it is not completely insane to suggest that alternate tunings may better tap into them and that this might somehow be nice. As far as the tracks go, I found the 432hz ones somewhat more powerful than the originals on a visceral level, although it may just be my ears. Since I have so much experience with 440hz, I vould instantly tell that the tuning was "off" and it may be the experience of being "out of tune" that I'm responding to rather than the specific frequency. ------------- 
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Posted By: friso
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 09:40
I must admit I'm starting to get a bit angry here. You discard information because of the fact it doesn't make sense. You remind me of something (Holland, 19th century, a man speaks: 'hey a train, it must be from hell, we'll die going faster then 25 km/h, blablabla'). Don't understanding something doesn't give you any right to judge. And besides this, you happen to get the wrong men in front of you. If you had known anything about quantum mechanics and related objects, anything about wave interference or anything about the difference between the sensory and the scientific 'wave/energy/matter' world you might have had the right to speak. But I guess you don't have that. Because if you would have, you would have known that all major sensory and processing activity of the brain and sensors of the human body work with (electronic) waves. They also have proven to be adjusted by forces from outside. Healing with sound has occurred in almost every great civilization. The Egyptians build complete temples with rooms that were designed to vibrate in in certain pitches. It is very likely that by making music that interferes with certain parts of our brain gives a an effect. No non-sense, just science. And besides that, this forum was intended to be an experiment and your mockery might have ruined it. You speak about people 'with their brain-dead articles', but you use articles your-self too that might be as 'brain-dead'as the others. Can you smell the difference? Conclusion. Let me please continue my experiment and let's discuss this (if you feel the need) with private messages or in an own topic. |
Posted By: Atomicunderware
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 09:48
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Unfortunately I think for this to really have any impact the instruments would need to be tuned using 432Hz prior to them being tracked. Interesting concept though, I had never heard of this before, I just took 440Hz for granted... Not quite sure what modern mastering techniques have to do with the discussion, but there you go... ------------- Froghead --- Esoteric - www.bereft.co.uk Pantheist - www.pantheist.co.uk |
Posted By: Kojak
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 09:59
| Does this touch upon the binaural, monaural and isochronic beats effect..?? I mean, like a similar effect? |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 10:00
Question not understood here... |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 10:22
If you bothered to read my post, I was talking about how gullible some of the members of PA are, and how it kinda throws out the window the idea that all "proggers" are intellectuals. My idea of an intellectual is not that of someone who just reads any random article written with a bunch of unfounded garbage and just believes it because they're told it's true. -------------
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Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 10:25
As a non-musician this makes no sense. The original was a better version of Marooned but mainly because it was higher-quality. I'm quite happy however they've been tuning it after the 40s, I don't have a single thing before 1950 on my player. |
Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 11:24
I would say that Friso has proven that he is not gullible in this sense - he is actually performing a test on these forums to find out if what he has read is true or false, instead of taking it on faith. That seems like the definition of science / verifying what he's heard to me. I tried listening to both and didn't notice any huge difference between the two at all to be honest - I noticed a feel of slight more calm listening to the 432 one but I'm not sure if that's because my brain expected me to or not. I recommend finding a way to test this effect without letting people know what it is your testing, so you that this effect is avoided. Also, testing it in different orders (432 first/440 after) etc. with different people.
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Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 13:11
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Okay, a thing or two for all of you who either believe or not in this theory. Read it, damn. 1. A certain frequency (yes, even the frequency of the sound) can have effect on objects and living creatures, including humans, furthermore including human thoughts, state of mind and indirectly, health. 2. A frequency of 432 Hz is absolutely irrelevant on that matter. A 'frequency healing' is often lumped together with other modern movements and philosophic schools such are New Age, alternative therapies, neuro-linguistic programming, transcendental meditations, various methods of self-help and so on. Add into that crystallotherpay, aromatherapy, homeopathy, pyramidal forces and other things. 99% of all that is rubbish. The problem is to determine which one percent is right. Some things are undeniably utter bullsh*t, such is astrology. Some things might have some scientific plausibility. Ideas about UFOs, flying saucers, is overblown and naive, but the idea of a extraterrestrial life form is worthy of debating, even from the purely scientific point of view. The idea of 'life energy flow' which is elan vital in Europe, chi in China and prana in India is something I don't believe in, but I'm ready to remain open upon that issue. I won't touch the issue of spirituality, afterlife and religion here. I am a humanist and scientific skeptic that ask for scientific proof and verification. However, it seems that some non-scientific methods do work for people; perhaps it's all delusion, hoax and placebo, perhaps not. I do not know, and I do not pretend to understand. Romantic mysticism could be charming, but false theories need to be busted; the others which are valid will be proven one day. That's about it. There's no magic, just nature. Now onto the frequency thing. There's a plethora of methods, tapes, software and what not; binaural beats, brainwave synchronizers etc. They do work. But do they work properly? What they do exactly? Exhibit A. It's possible to listen to a certain pulsating frequency that will effect the listener: our brain is working in various frequencies: some ranges of those are labeled Alpha waves, Beta, Theta and so on. They change with emotions and other things human brain can evoke. Indeed listening to that can evoke hypnosis and trance in a person, perhaps help one to focus on studying, or becoming more self-confident. Indirectly, it will affect one's digestion, blood pressure and overall health. But it's not that easy. or simple. and not entirely true. It follows the assumption the human brain is in A mode (frequency) when it's sleepy, in B mode when it's focused, C mode when it's angry. Which is true to a degree (even high degree, some 80 to 90%), but not entirely. In fact sometimes it manifests itself in opposite, worse yet, unpredictable parameters than set as a hazy standards in neurology. The pattern is just too complicated and seemingly random to be encapsulated. We can imagine a brain as a set of 1000000000 switches, but there's no way brain will be happy/melancholic/euphoric by simply turning a certain set of switches on or off. I won't instantly reject the idea of frequency healing as wrong, but rather insuficcient enough to be effective. One day in the future, it might became possible: with a brain scan of an individual you'll be able to determine which frequency can help in which way. The itself is not nonsense. But the idea it can effectively be benefitial today, while it's still psychobabble rather than science, is to be approached with extreme caution. What about dirrect effect of music on body's health? Exhibit B. Even less plausible. Human individuals are different. If you hit a wine glass (or spin your wet finger on the edge of the glass), it will produce a sound (everything has a resonance frequency). If you hit a bigger wine glass, it will produce different sound. Hit my rib cage, it will produce different frequency than yours. Air in my lungs, plasma in my body, nerves transmitting electricity - they're all ever-changing, individual, different. Exhibit C. Even if it's all true - even if it can affect human health precisely - even if the frequency of 432 Hz is ideal for (all) humans (lower frequency makes more sense, our bodies are bags filled with water), for whatever reason, (and please don't slap me with quantum mysticism here): i. The music is not repetition of a single tone. There are chords (producing aliquote tones and overtones), there are scales (chromatic frequency is rising exponentially by a 12th root of two), there are song in different keys, there are bursts of hiss (wind instruments and cymbals) which have a frequency spectrum of the entire scale. ii. Why exactly 432 Hz? Someone mentioned relation with a golden ratio. How is that relevant? ii.a 432 either divided or multiplied with 1,61803399 give an nearly-integer, which is an interesting property, but a property of phi (golden ratio), not 432. You can try any sequence of numbers to multiply or divide with phi, and see how the sequence convergence it's near-integerity. Surely the value of 432 gives some (arbitary) rounded numbers, but that's only because of our convention, base 10. ii.b Hertz itself is defined as a cycle per second and second is arbitrary and self-referential unit with no foundation in physical constants. In conclusion, I won't dismiss the idea of frequency affecting humans, but the knowledge about that is too vague and minimal, and a frequency of 432 Hz seems even less relevant. I'm more than willing to see your feedback and perhaps learn something if I'm wrong in my observation. ------------- |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 13:17
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What about the brown note?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 14:02
This is correct. Every material object and being has resonant frequencies, whether it is a crystal glass, or the skull of an animal. Our sinuses, inner ears, etc., all vibrate to different frequencies, and is a major reason why some music can be wonderful to some and annoying to others. As for Petrovks comments, all are invalidated by his denial that compression can have a distinct effect on the listening experience. When poorly done, compression can fatigue the listener's hearing, and when done properly, can enhance the listening experience. Anyone with any modicum of training in audio engineering knows this. ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 14:09
The frequencies in Jimi Hendrix's Valleys Of Neptune are awful, I've been struggling all day with an incredible headache after listening to that  
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Posted By: yanch
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 14:25
| Did not notice any difference between them. Nice mellow Floyd track, that's all. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 14:37
To be honest that's what I thought of when I first saw this thread title, except the "brown note"* is much lower in frequency. * and is a myth.
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Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 14:38
That has been busted. |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 15:11
I totally agree! There are way better listening-test available. The fact you hear the difference in pitch makes it however hard to hide which sample is heard. Why 432 Hz? Because it has been used for more then two thousand years all over the world. Furthermore I find it interesting that people think ancient civilizations would go threw so much as building complete concrete temples out of amazingly heavy rock to build a sound-resonating system that has no use at all. Why always see ancient people ;ole Egyptians as imbeciles? Let's try to find out if they were perhaps right! That's what this experiment is about. Furthermore I don't thing it has anything to do with figures. The Hz is based on the second and the second is a human invention that has no logical or important length in physics. And finally... there's a small range in the electro magnetic radiation we call 'light', to witch we respond best. There are a certain amounts of smell's we can decipher best. Why not a certain frequency for sound? |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 15:16
| I have studied art history, and never encountered the affirmation that ancient architecture ever had explored resonance. I am referring to academical literature on the matter, of course. That sounds interesting, I'll investigate. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 15:21
To go with your light analogy, there is - it's (very roughly) 20 Hz - 20 kHz It's not like there's a single color that has any magical properties
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Posted By: friso
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 16:16
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^ I never mentioned magical properties. I do not believe in any form of magic. I believe in a natural resonance that might work better with the human body than others.
As with the light spectrum.. there's one wave-length that influences water molecules to start moving and rise in energy. This makes a micro-wave work. This is also a form of interference on a specific wave-length. |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 16:32
 ------------- |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 23:26
If you read Vitruvius' Ten Books of Architecture (the most ancient and one of the most definitive works on the subject) there is actually a great deal about resonance chambers being placed in auditoriums. Not being a physicist, much of it was over my head, but it's worth checking out. -------------
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 01 2010 at 03:47
Indeed - but in saying this, you indicate that you recognise the issues of over-compression, which certainly seems to be fashionable these days. *cough Metallica cough*
Made me laugh, I must admit!
Yet someone had the genius idea of releasing Miles' "Kind of Blue" almost a semitone lower than Miles played it - and it's a classic.
The pitch CAN affect the overall sound, postively or negatively, but I'm not going to get all scientific just yet - surely it's obvious?
Just because someones arguments are poor, it doesn't mean that there isn't anything scientifically provable behind them. I dojn't see a problem with testing a theory scientifically - and if the science proves that the theories are hokum, then that's just as good as proving that they're sound in principle.
True. Ultimately we are just big clumps of atoms all virating furiously at whatever mean tempo we are vibrating at, and must respond to external vibrations.
Not necessarily.
So very, very true.
How about the energy flow of atoms or subatomic particles, particularly massless ones, which exist more or less in energy form?
Oh, I don't know... but let's not go there this time
I think that the key assumed point here is that A=432Hz, and the other notes are relative - but I guess that's moot - I agree, and the scientific observations I made above are good indications that, as we're all different and music demonstrably affects different people in different ways on different occasions, we cannot therefore specify any "golden frequency" or "silver bullet" that will heal everybody, even if it were verifiably true that it works (but as with most new age "medicine", I would strongly suspect that it's 99.999999% placebo).
Some ancient civilisations believed that the world is flat...
The real question here is why was it used for more than two thousand years?
Another, related question would be "If cannabis has been used for over 8000 years, why don't we all smoke it now?"
I was lucky enough to be at college in Northampton, where one of only a tiny handful of Saxon round churches exists - and I was priveleged to perform in it. The acoustics were so astonishing, that you'd have a hard time convincing me that the Saxons didn't design and build it like that principally for the acoustic properties. It's an incredibly ambient and peaceful church...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holy_Sepulchre,_Northampton - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holy_Sepulchre,_Northampton
http://www.stseps.org/welcome.htm - http://www.stseps.org/welcome.htm
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: mono
Date Posted: July 01 2010 at 03:54
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As we are all physically different, I find rather unplausible that a certain pitch would be globally considered as <place your feeling here>. One simple and true effect of sound waves (or waves in general) is the one of very low frequencies played at high level (which requires quite some power, and sometimes are impossible to reproduce). These make (no particular frequency values) our BODY (not the brain or any quirky "element") resonnate and have some interesting effects, like infrabass making the thorax shiver etc... The brown noise "idea" comes from here, and is not completely stupid, as different parts of our body, like any other object have resonnance frequencies (that are different for different body shapes of course), and these are funny to experiment with. I wouldn't be surprised if, after a day of experimentation in a lab that can reproduce 10- Hz frequencies, engineers could find a frequency that makes a particular subject lose blatter control :). For example, some sub-20Hz frequencies played "loud" (even if not audible) can make you feel veeery uncomfortable (physically) due to vibrations of some of your body parts (the biggest ones :) ). ------------- https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 01 2010 at 11:52
Good luck with that.
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Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: July 01 2010 at 12:15
Your description of compression is correct (other than the use of the term clipping - you don't want anything to clip or you will get unwanted distortion), but one of the most important elements in the mastering processing chain is Limiting, which is a specialized compressor designed to maximize the loudness of the track. This is used in all modern masters to bring it up to broadcast levels consistent with other releases, and is what is being misused in the aforementioned loudness war. ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: July 01 2010 at 12:25
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There's no difference - it's all relative. Why not use 441Hz, or 421Hz, or 445Hz? As long as the whole piece is in tune, I couldn't care less.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: July 01 2010 at 14:59
Thorax shivering...you had reminded me of that...my friend used to play E chord(!) on his Jazz bass (with active pickups) through old Acoustic amplifier, twice as big as my fridge. all the bass frequencies were boosted and volume cranked up to max. I had to grab myself by a neck...and my sight was blurry (not surprising, since the entire garage was vibrating, along with everything and everybody inside). But those were cool times...10 minute Farfisa organ solo followed.  ------------- |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: July 01 2010 at 15:44
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I was gonna post something here relevant and interesting, but then I noticed the thread was flame war ------------- 
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 01:26
It may be that the distortion is wanted...
 Of course, with digital recording, clipping does result in unwanted, or at least, very unpleasant distortion.
In analogue systems, the distortion created by clipping can add warmth or excitement, depending on which frequencies are causing the clipping.
Of course there's a difference - if the key pitch is different, the entire piece will sound different and have a different "flavour". This is something that J. S. Bach explored when he wrote the 48 preludes and fugues.
Recently, I heard a remaster of Led Zep II on the Quiex label, and hated it. I ran it back to back with my first pressing on the same system, to prove that it wasn't simply the equipment making it sound unfamiliar, and it turned out that it had been remastered at a slightly different speed, which raised the pitch by nearly a semitone.
This is the equivalent of making A > than whatever frequency was originally used, so the difference is entirely tangible.
I don't see any flaming  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 01:49
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First of all, friso, there was no one standard of tuning before 420 hz because of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_interval - the wolf . There were countless numbers of them, which is what the Well Tempered Clavier is about, so it's not really a battle of old vs new. You can't just change A back to 432 hz because the rest of it wouldn't fit within equal temperment. And I have no idea why you're citing the Egyptians: they built a lot of cool things, but they weren't exactly the most level-headed civilization... I really can't tell the difference between the two videos. Maybe it's my crappy laptop speakers (and I cbfed to dig out my headphones), but the second actually sounds slightly higher than the first, rather than lower. In any case, I highly doubt that the vast majority of people have a sensitive enough ear to hear the difference of a third of a semitone, especially for non-musicians.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: mono
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 05:08
You simply shift all frequencies by a factor of 432/440 (multiply all frequencies by this factor) and all fits in. It's just a matter of reference. It's like moving the pitch bend wheel down veeeeeery slightly. Is that it or did I get you wrong? ------------- https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else |
Posted By: mono
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 05:11
I've seen people actually vomit because they were standing too close to the woofers in a hardcore concert. Or they were drunk, I don't know :)... ------------- https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 06:54
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Some ancient civilisations believed that the world is flat...
Yeah, but the Egyptians had a better science of the universe than the modern world until the mid nineties. |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 06:54
| I would like to ask people to just do the test and write about it. This debate is useless. I don't want to be told if it's truth or not, I want to test it. |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 06:58
This wolf thing has totally nothing to do with it. I'm not talking about intervals within scales. I'm talking about complete scales played 8 Hz lower in frequency. A slightly lower pitch in general that is. |
Posted By: mono
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 07:11
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It's not a test, but a SURVEY you're making. Even if 500 people tell you they see a difference, it could very well mean they're all imagining things (exagerated of course). I personnally see no difference "emotionnally", but maybe that's because I already have my mind made up. Plus, if you ask a question, you have to be prepared for people debating about the THEORY, which is here much more reliable than a "test", whatever the results are. Did you really expect to have 99% of people telling you they were stunned by the difference? ------------- https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 07:42
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I did a bit of Internet research about Egyptians and resonance and unfortunately no academical research has surfaced, only, indeed, pseudo-science. All sorts of "experts" in "ancient spirituality" are "explaining" all sorts of stuff from religious rituals that are not actually documented to engineering, the end of the world and astrology... only quoting themselves, not academical research Here's such a "scientist":  This dudette is actually a singer/musician whose most academic offering was the participation at a Da Vinci Code conference (?), her performance is now broadcasted on The Travel Channel. She is an "expert" in Mary Magdalene, Gnosticism and sound healing. http://www.grahamhancock.com/biog.htm - This extremely successful writer that comes across a lot when searching for Egyptians and resonance is a guy whose major concern is the "truth" in mythological civilizations and other history "mysteries". He's a sort of a more reasonable Erik von Daniken. http://robertbauval.co.uk/ - This guy is also concerned about astrology and immortality. One of his most "interesting" claims is that "the ‘meshing’ of the Egyptian calendars (the ‘civil’ and ‘stellar’) were
the cause of momentous events in Ancient Egypt". However the representatives of "alternative history" (how these guys call themselves) are upset on him because they feel he is going to much from the occult to "orthodox" Egyptology. http://ravenwoods.tripod.com/index.html - Here 's an intereting site which explains a lot Etc, etc. Of course the ancients believed in this stuff and called it "science". Their efforts to understand and explain cosmos, human being, destiny etc. are fascinating and are now studied as academically as cultural phenomena, not as science. Taking these ancient beliefs again and trying to sell them now as (occult) "science" like these "alternative" guys do is, like Petrovsk said, pseud-science, charlatanism. But that doesn't mean that the ancient's intuitive "science" didn't have good ideas, worth exploring today. "Sound therapy" is of course bull***t if it tries to heal diseases by playing the patient certain "cosmic" music based on the ratios extracted from the alignment of his planets , while studying the effect of sound over perception, therefore over neuro-processes and eventually over the possible effect on the body is indeed something scientifical.  |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 09:11
You notice this because you have perfect pitch. I don't have it, and to me there is no discernable difference. Isn't it likely that you're simply used to a particular pitch, and that something sounds odd to you if it's slightly off that pitch? I don't think that there's any objective difference between 440 Hz and 432 Hz. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 09:18
| I listened to the samples again last night, starting with the 432 version, it was harder to tell the difference that way, I think, I can't say if it was any more relaxing or not though. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 10:41
I was under the impression that because of the way the octave pitches add up, moving them around would cause dissonance in one of the other notes. But reading Wikipedia more closely, it seems I misunderstood. But my point remains that it's incorrect for friso to claim that for all time until the modern period A was 432 hz, because http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_pitch_standards_in_Western_music - that was not the case .
The mid nineties of which century? Because I'm pretty sure this statement is going to false for any of them, unless science of the universe has some meaning I'm not aware of (and you are a follower of Ra). And pet peeve, Certified, but nobody ever believed that the world was flat. It's obvious the world is round if you are anywhere near a large body of water. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 13:37
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Did a vehicle
Come from somewhere out there... ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 02:59
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Just to land in the Andes?
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 05 2010 at 03:32
Having perfect pitch is simply a tool which I could use to help explain why I liked one version and not the other.
Have you done the specific comaprison I mentioned?
If you had, you'd notice differences straight away - the fact that the pitch is different makes the music slightly faster, and puts more empahsis on treble than bass frequencies. Of course, some of this is the mastering EQ, but speed obviously changes a lot more than pitch.
The point is that the two are different, and to my taste, one is not as pleasant to listen to as the other - I merely sought ways to explain it. There could of course be other reasons, as I did not perform an exhastive scientific exploration - this suffices in exactly the same way as playing the album at 45 RPM would.
Sorry, Henry, but it's true - although not for Mediaeval times, as is widely supposed. Dig back a bit further, and you'll find stuff from the Babylonians through the Egyptians (although not all) to even the early Greeks, who used the Flat Earth as the basis for experiments, and described the earth in this fashion in maps, which we have copies of - showing the entire known land mass surrounded by ocean on what would seem to be a disk rather than a sphere.
You are correct, however, that this belief was not as widely held as a many people seem think - but nevertheless, viewing the horizon standing near a large body of water might easily lead one to assume that the earth is a kind of curved disk with a kind of gas-filled dome above it, with, perhaps, the nearest high mountain range as the high point on that curved disk - possibly the abode of the gods?
Maybe I should have used the "Earth at the centre of the universe" as my metaphor? ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: July 05 2010 at 04:21
No, but since I don't have such an intimate relationship with the original version, I doubt that the difference would be that important to me. (see next answer, too).
I think that both changes in speed and EQ are much more important than a slight change of pitch - except for people with perfect pitch, who are used to specific pitches and perceive notes that are slightly off as - well, slightly off, while people like me, who have relative pitch, can be perfectly fine with the recording as long as all the notes are in tune with each other.
Well, today you can change pitch and speed independently (of course not without a dramatic reduction in quality due to rendering artefacts). My only point was that merely playing a song with the intstruments tuned to 432 Hz instead of 440Hz does not change much in terms of listening pleasure, except for people with perfect pitch. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: July 05 2010 at 07:51
You can't seriously believe that, surely? I am astonished. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 05 2010 at 09:23
You can't simply say it has little or no effect if you haven't bothered to measure it (which is the point of this discussion, after all).
That's just lazy. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: July 05 2010 at 12:34
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^ and how exactly do you measure listening pleasure?
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: July 05 2010 at 12:40
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By pleasurometer, you silly!
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Posted By: mono
Date Posted: July 06 2010 at 03:50
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^ I'm sure scientologists have a device just for that!
------------- https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 06 2010 at 04:29
How exactly can you comment on whether or not it is affected if you don't even know how to measure it?
You really haven't been folowing this thread at all, have you? ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: July 06 2010 at 04:46
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^ well, how can you comment on the beauty of a painting if you can't measure it? Simple: You just do. I haven't read every post of this thread - but I don't have to. I'm pretty sure that none of the posts contains a perfect recipe for quantifying enjoyment of music. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 06 2010 at 05:23
I simply mean that you've said that you can't tell the difference - and yet you haven't even tried, so I was wondering how you could possibly know.
My posts have at least suggested ways in which it might be measured and tested - the notion that there might be a "recipe" is, after all, the entire point of this thread (you should read it sometime - it's jolly interesting). ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 06 2010 at 05:28
Listening is never a pleasure, which is why I listen to prog. Hours and hours of guaranteed listening agony.
Speaking of measuring paintings, I give you, Salvador Dali's masterworks... http://www.salvadordalimuseum.org/collection/collection_highlights.html - http://www.salvadordalimuseum.org/collection/collection_highlights.html Go for the really big ones.
These four are amazing and may help you with the 432 Hertz rent-a-car affect. http://www.salvadordalimuseum.org/ - http://www.salvadordalimuseum.org/ ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Rabid
Date Posted: July 08 2010 at 03:15
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I couldn't hear any difference, except the 432hz version was slightly slower.
It wound me up, no end.
Dali @ 432hz.
320 X 240, btw.
------------- "...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..." |
Posted By: Rabid
Date Posted: July 08 2010 at 04:40
Exactly.......and you're ALWAYS going to have trouble locating a tuning-fork @ 432hz, anyway......not many people make them.
But if you want to try a REAL experiment, have your keyboard player tune at 440hz, bassist tune at 257hz,
guitarist tune at 569hz and singer sing at 16hz (slip him some Mandrax), and spend the evening seeing how many beer-cans you can succesfully dodge. Your singer might take a few hits, but I bet he'll be the most 'relaxed'. ------------- "...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..." |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: July 08 2010 at 05:10
I often play the guitar while it isn't tuned precisely to 440Hz ... but I've never noticed any difference. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Rabid
Date Posted: July 08 2010 at 05:10
You're telling me, m8........TV stations do it all the time. REALLY p*sses me off when you're watching a programme, and then the ads come on at full blast.....you have to turn them down.....then the programme comes back on and you can't hear it, so you have to turn it back up again. Sorta gets on yer tits when you have to do it 30 times per night. Why cant they just set the limiter at -16Db and adjust the goddam master volume on the mixer????????????????????
 ------------- "...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..." |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: July 08 2010 at 05:12
I won't bother locating any tuning-fork, since my amps had tuners built in since about 1995. And for most of them you can adjust the reference pitch to 432Hz, if you want to. Most digital keyboards also allow for micro-tuning.
Well put, but besides the point of the thread. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: mono
Date Posted: July 12 2010 at 05:28
Because the only limitations ads have on their audio is a dynamic limiation. So they compress like animals so that you HEAR THE PUBLICITY VERY WELL. When you buy a publicity spot and deliver your ad, the TV/Radio station is NOT allowed to tweek your volume down, unless it doesn't comply with the dynamics allowed (clipping etc...). TV Programs (in general) on the other hand seek a better dynamic (a whole show generally has more dynamic changes than a 30sec ad), so the general volume is lower. ------------- https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else |
Posted By: purple_hazer
Date Posted: July 31 2010 at 13:37
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Posted By: Musicgeek412
Date Posted: March 22 2011 at 10:23
 From what I have I read about tuning pitches in Europe, it was anything BUT one fixed pitch. (such as 432) I don't know about around the rest of the world, but it isn't true until you can prove it, and good luck proving what pitch people in Tibet (or what have you) were using 2000 years ago.
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Posted By: Musicgeek412
Date Posted: March 22 2011 at 10:38
It is pretey clear just by listening that different intervals have more porfound effects than different fixed pitches. And THIS is actually what Bach was taking advantage of.
What I mean was, the way Bach tuned his keyboard, B-C wouldn't have been the same as C-Db, nor C-E the same as Eb-G. This actually gave the keys more distinguasable colors, something we don't have in equal temperament.
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Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: March 22 2011 at 13:46
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This really doesn't make any sense. A pitch out of context affects you no differently than other pitches (other than really high or really low), its intervals that elicit the tension/dissonance/consonance. It's pretty easy for something to "seem" more relaxing when someone says "these are often more relaxing, listen to it." Yeah the other day when playing fretless I did notice how calm everybody got when I slid down a little below the fret.......please.
Not to mention, have fun if you're playing with any real ( I say real instead of analog because I hate digital equipment) keyboards. I don't know about you, but tuning my Hammonds isn't my favorite thing to do. AND WOW TO COMMENTS ABOUT REMASTERS BEING AT A DIFFERENT SPEED!!! That difference in sound has nothing to do with the overall pitch (yes it is slightly altered) and has to do with the tone being different due to the entire speed of the album being altered (to achieve the different pitch). For example, the drums are going to sound much different (see the mixes of Turn of a Friendly Card for an example). Do people think? If you're favorite song had been played a half step down from the beginning you wouldn't feel any differently about it.
------------- Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell? I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance. |
Posted By: Moche175
Date Posted: April 26 2013 at 11:30
| Check out http://www.pentagonalskies.com" rel="nofollow - www.pentagonalskies.com . It's a full-length rock opera recorded completely with A=432Hz tuning. You can listen to and read along with the entire production online (free of charge). Definitely worth the time! |
Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: April 26 2013 at 18:19
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^ Welcome aboard.
------------- http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: May 20 2013 at 11:47
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Listen to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdB-8eLEW8g" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdB-8eLEW8g And than to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFRhhcA4Q6w" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFRhhcA4Q6w (It might help to only hear the intro on the first link.) There is definitely a difference here.
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Posted By: JessicaRegan
Date Posted: June 07 2015 at 07:45
| I am so glad to see you have taken notice of 432hz....within 13 years hopefully we will be listening to it on the Wireless :) |
Posted By: JessicaRegan
Date Posted: June 07 2015 at 07:46
| Facebook : Jessica Regan Newcastle NSW Australia :) |
Posted By: JessicaRegan
Date Posted: June 07 2015 at 07:52
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Just thought I would mention that I also have had trouble getting the word out there re: 432hz...if I was in a movie and had a really low top on I would swear that this topic is being watched and monitored..... It would also be a really good plot line to include that clearly the Government whomever that may be does not want this information out there.....because it causes less stress and peace....therefore no chaos and money for the greedy. :) |
Posted By: JessicaRegan
Date Posted: June 07 2015 at 07:53
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money for the greedy..... = 440z peace = 432 hz to refine
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: June 09 2015 at 19:35
what in the living f**k?  |
Posted By: Cailyn
Date Posted: June 10 2015 at 00:28
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Clearly some seriously whacked conspiracy theory. I am certain that no empirical double-blind study exists that validates even a tiny fraction of this nonsense. Beethoven is heavenly at 432 or 440... ------------- http://www.cailynmusic.com |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: June 13 2015 at 04:49
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The 432 Hz sounds muffled. There has obviously been done something with it, even during recording they were turning the buttons, I think. The 440 Hz, on the other hand, sounds a bit shrill. I think I'd go for 438 Hz, based on these samples. ------------- 
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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 11:25
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432 / 440hz argument is a non argument. Most people THINK they can hear a difference, they can't. It's psychological. Saxes used to be sold as "high pitch / low pitch" to cope with this. Most "high pitch" saxes became unsaleable as people worried that they wouldn't play in tune with other low pitch saxes. In the rare case that anyone could tell the difference... what you do is either slightly slacken your jaw OR move the mouthpiece back a few millimetres. Problem - non problem, even - solved. ------------- |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 07:10
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As a sax player, one of the things you get taught is "You play in tune. The sax doesn't". And this is quite correct. Most saxes will get near to a note, but you basically have to adjust the pitch yourself to fine tune it. This comes with practice. So. If we assume that I have to play in *perfect* pitch, I go on stage (with a directional microphone and oscilloscope or a digital tuner) and take extra care with every single note. The audience, who would all have directional microphones and oscilloscopes, would obviously be paying special attention. Of course, we'd have to take atmospheric pressure into account, tuning, say, the drum kit up and down for difference in sea level. And better not use Gibson guitars, because, Fact Fans, the 24 3/4 scale on most Gibsons is fretted up incorrectly, so you get minor intonation errors. I'd expect nothing less than my picky fans to play our music on vinyl, heaven forfend that their record deck didn't revolve at precisely 33.333 recurring RPM, otherwise that'd put the pitch out, too. ------------- |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 07:13
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PS Beethoven. If we're on nit-picky correctness, the standards for orchestral timing changed in the 19th century. Beethoven used to be played a lot faster. ;-) Seriously, was this thread a good idea ???? ------------- |