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Epignosis 
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
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Points: 32524
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 Posted: July 05 2010 at 13:34 |
 octopus-4 wrote:
Biblos is phenician and was the name of a city in today's Lebanon. Book is the correct translation effectively.(I remjember it from school, I didn't check on wikipedia).
There's a number of bibles other than barbecue, but given the relationship between the Jewish/Christian and Satan who is a relevant character in both the stories, I think the barbecue can be ignored unless it's a reference with Hell and how souls were expected to be treated there... 
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I'm a Christian and don't believe in Satan or the traditional notion of hell. 
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
Status: Offline
Points: 7826
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Posted: July 05 2010 at 13:43 |
Epignosis wrote:
octopus-4 wrote:
Biblos is phenician and was the name of a city in today's Lebanon. Book is the correct translation effectively.(I remjember it from school, I didn't check on wikipedia).
There's a number of bibles other than barbecue, but given the relationship between the Jewish/Christian and Satan who is a relevant character in both the stories, I think the barbecue can be ignored unless it's a reference with Hell and how souls were expected to be treated there...
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I'm a Christian and don't believe in Satan or the traditional notion of hell.
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Just out of curiosity what do you think happens if you're a bad person when you die? I don't think I've ever heard a Christian say that before...
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
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Posted: July 05 2010 at 13:51 |
BaldFriede wrote:
RoyFairbank wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
This thread has been centred mostly around religion concerning "God", but I just realised that much of the Black/Doom metal, some of which, is featured on this site, including other types of bands like Luciferīs Friend and Black Sabbath - hell, Coven did a full black mass on one of their albums, - also feature religious lyrics albeit with a different approach altogether...
Speaking as a European, I grew up with no kind of religious beliefs other than my parents teaching me to appreciate life itself - and much of the religion I saw or heard of, was very much attached to war, indoctrination and one-mindedness. Recently in the Bush junior years, many of my friends and people around where I live, have come to detest every single thing that even remotely touches the subject religion. I try and explain to them, that I find that as much discriminatory and wrong - as the exact opposite they are fighting, but who can really win conversations, when you are dealing with people who donīt care?
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No, no, no (with regards to the first part of the post). Most real human religion outside a few Eastern and extinct religions (which are really very similar) has taken the form of worship of Jehovah and tribute to his parasitic churches and bowing to his chosen ruling class and serving in the army of his chosen country...
This is what we call an "institution" and "ideology."
The devil-worship stuff is just a joke by mindless drug-addicts to sell records and is predicated on the existence of Jehovah worship, making the devil-worship stuff seem risque and controversial.
It is has none of the building blocks of a true religion.
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You get institutions and ideology everywhere, not just in religion. Capitalism is as much an ideology as any religion. Religion is not bad per se, but when it becomes a mass movement it is no longer to be trusted, just like any other mass movement. I am a member of a small religious community of 14 (a High Priestess actually). We worship Gaia, the ancient Greek Goddess of the Earth. We don't ask anyone to switch off their brains and believe in some dogma, we just feel a spiritual gratitude towards Mother Earth which we express.
I see the world as a process with lots of sub-processes. I am deeply convinced that any sufficiently complex and self-referential process develops a mind, a consciousness. Our brains are such processes, for example, or more correctly our bodies, since the body is an important part of that process. Since brain scientists don't have the slightest idea where our consciousness comes from (trust me,they don't), this hypothesis is as good as any other. Now the most complex process in the world, with myriads of self-references, is the universe; it is hence just logiccal for me to believe it has a mind, a consciousness, which I call "God".
With what right do I call the hypothetical mind of the Universe "God"? Well, the definition of God is that it (I prefer "it" over "he") is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient entity. The Universe certainly is omnipresent. It is omnipotent too; everything that can happen in it. And, as astrophysical and quantum physical studies show, the universe appears to have a kind of holographic structure, so that all the information in it is somehow in each particle. Hence we have omniscience too.
Now why do I worship Gaia then instead of the universe? Quite simply
because her manifestations are directly accessible to me while the
universe as a whole is out of reach. It's mind is so much above me that trying to communicate with it would be like one of my blood cells trying to communicate with my brain, only the difference in scale is a lot larger even in the case of me and the universe than in the case of my brain and the blood cell. "The ways of God are inscrutable" is more than just an empty saying.
I am quite certain that you will sneer at my beliefs, non-religious people usually do. But none of my beliefs is in contradiction to anything modern science tells us.
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I will never sneer at people with religious beliefs per se. I hate when people use religion as scapegoats for their own inadequacies, meaning that they turn away from reason and science, because the scriptures tell them otherwise. Religion should set people free - not incarcerate them. Darwin was a religious man, but then again Hitler was too...
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: July 05 2010 at 13:56 |
J-Man wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
octopus-4 wrote:
Biblos is phenician and was the name of a city in today's Lebanon. Book is the correct translation effectively.(I remjember it from school, I didn't check on wikipedia).
There's a number of bibles other than barbecue, but given the relationship between the Jewish/Christian and Satan who is a relevant character in both the stories, I think the barbecue can be ignored unless it's a reference with Hell and how souls were expected to be treated there...
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I'm a Christian and don't believe in Satan or the traditional notion of hell.
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Just out of curiosity what do you think happens if you're a bad person when you die? I don't think I've ever heard a Christian say that before...
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Will answer in the appropriate thread...so...I'll catch you in the General Discussions.
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 13976
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Posted: July 05 2010 at 13:59 |
J-Man wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
octopus-4 wrote:
Biblos is phenician and was the name of a city in today's Lebanon. Book is the correct translation effectively.(I remjember it from school, I didn't check on wikipedia).
There's a number of bibles other than barbecue, but given the relationship between the Jewish/Christian and Satan who is a relevant character in both the stories, I think the barbecue can be ignored unless it's a reference with Hell and how souls were expected to be treated there...
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I'm a Christian and don't believe in Satan or the traditional notion of hell.
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Just out of curiosity what do you think happens if you're a bad person when you die? I don't think I've ever heard a Christian say that before...
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As I wrote a bit more seriously some posts ago, in my home town we grow up with our heads full of Catholic concepts (I'm from Rome). My concept of Hell (i'm not a believer, but it's poart of my culture) is Dante's Inferno, and he took the idea from the Catholic church of the 13th century.
I am atheist, so I think that when one dies, the electric connections between the neurons switch off together with your brain and your soul.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
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Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:00 |
octopus-4 wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
RoyFairbank wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
This thread has been centred mostly around religion concerning "God", but I just realised that much of the Black/Doom metal, some of which, is featured on this site, including other types of bands like Luciferīs Friend and Black Sabbath - hell, Coven did a full black mass on one of their albums, - also feature religious lyrics albeit with a different approach altogether...
Speaking as a European, I grew up with no kind of religious beliefs other than my parents teaching me to appreciate life itself - and much of the religion I saw or heard of, was very much attached to war, indoctrination and one-mindedness. Recently in the Bush junior years, many of my friends and people around where I live, have come to detest every single thing that even remotely touches the subject religion. I try and explain to them, that I find that as much discriminatory and wrong - as the exact opposite they are fighting, but who can really win conversations, when you are dealing with people who donīt care?
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No, no, no (with regards to the first part of the post). Most real human religion outside a few Eastern and extinct religions (which are really very similar) has taken the form of worship of Jehovah and tribute to his parasitic churches and bowing to his chosen ruling class and serving in the army of his chosen country...
This is what we call an "institution" and "ideology."
The devil-worship stuff is just a joke by mindless drug-addicts to sell records and is predicated on the existence of Jehovah worship, making the devil-worship stuff seem risque and controversial.
It is has none of the building blocks of a true religion.
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Anton Lavey might have challenged that opinion if he was still alive... Satanism isnīt just mindless drug-addicts trying to be controversial. It is on the other hand a Religion that evolves around real human emotion and instinct, and how we often feed on them - making it the exact opposite of that of Christianity - where people often are taught to suppress these aspects of life. That is why sex is not a bad and unhealthy thing in Satanism.
Iīm with you a 100 percent, when it comes down to a lot of the Black/Doom metal bands, and how they choose to present their so-called religion, because most of them are influenced by the Norwegian Varg Vikernes (The man behind the band Burzum), who savagely killed a guy from a rivalling band, -burned down old wooden churches. Not a nice guy at all.
-Actually, he is so screwed up, that when he was in jail (The guy just got out after 16 years!?!) trying to make music for himself and his fans, he always found a way to link his very brutal Dark metal back to some form of Blues, and that was Negro music - as he put it - starting all over again, only to face the exact same problems... He wound up playing some sort of old Norwegian folk-music
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Dressing black instead of white or putting a cross upside-down can't be called a religion. It's like the "countrary sioux" who were used to do the countrary of everything...to be a Satanist you have to be a Christian first. |
I would not put it that way, but I understand where you are coming from... Satanism is a revolt against the Christian way of thinking (Satan actually means opposer), - I see no justification for labelling Satanists as people who wear black clothes and upside down crosses. Maybe you too have linked the religion with the bands playing Black metal. That is like saying: All Christians wear ties and drop bombs on the middle-east...
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:09 |
J-Man wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
octopus-4 wrote:
Biblos is phenician and was the name of a city in today's Lebanon. Book is the correct translation effectively.(I remjember it from school, I didn't check on wikipedia).
There's a number of bibles other than barbecue, but given the relationship between the Jewish/Christian and Satan who is a relevant character in both the stories, I think the barbecue can be ignored unless it's a reference with Hell and how souls were expected to be treated there...
|
I'm a Christian and don't believe in Satan or the traditional notion of hell.
|
Just out of curiosity what do you think happens if you're a bad person when you die? I don't think I've ever heard a Christian say that before...
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The 'fallen angel' concept of Lucifer is actually a misinterpretation of existing passages in the bible. 'Satan' is actually a very inconsistent character throughout the book if viewed as one being. Taking these things into account, it's baffling why so many Christians actually DO believe in the mythological depiction of Satan. It's not scriptural at all, really.
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rod65
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 248
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Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:13 |
J-Man wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
octopus-4 wrote:
Biblos is phenician and was the name of a city in today's Lebanon. Book is the correct translation effectively.
(I remjember it from school, I didn't check on wikipedia).
There's a number of bibles other than barbecue, but given the relationship between the Jewish/Christian and Satan who is a relevant character in both the stories, I think the barbecue can be ignored unless it's a reference with Hell and how souls were expected to be treated there...
|
I'm a Christian and don't believe in Satan or the traditional notion of hell.
|
Just out of curiosity what do you think happens if you're a bad person when you die? I don't think I've ever heard a Christian say that before...
|
Interesting detail here: The character Satan seems to have developed over the many centuries during which the books that make up the Bible were being composed: c. 1000 B.C. to c. A.D. 200. Curren tideas of Satan have more to do with Medieval literature than with scripture itself. Ideas of Hell also developed over time. Much of the contemporary understanding of Hell is not scriptural, but comes rather from Classical and Medieval sources (Virgil, Dante, etc.). The revolutionary message of Jesus, expressed most clearly in Luke's gospel, is that salvation is actually not dependant on behaviour, but is a matter of grace--literally the underserved gift of a loving God--and faith. Other books in the new testament, ex. Matthew's gospel, place greater emphasis on works, but the organization of the gospels, with Matt comming first, i.e. closest to the Old Testement and its focus on Mosaic Law, actually suggests a gradual building up from a fairly traditional titt-for-tatt approach, to the radical shift we see in Luke.
For the record, BTW, I am not a Christian and am thus not defending my beliefs. I am simply discussing my reading of a very important book.
Anyway, the message toward which the gospels build seems to be that anyone can be saved. This message does not get much air play as it flies in the face of most people's binary thinking. It is easier to think in terms of what we deserve: we can measure both ourselves and other people by that yard stick. But much of Luke, at least, suggests that this is not the yardsick that is most relevant in the end. And if the oganizing principle of the universe is Love, as J.C. suggests on more than one occasion, then grace in fact makes more sense than the essentially economic version of salvation and damnation that gets most of the air play and is ultimately not much more than a logical extention of the old system of sin, sacrifice, and atonement, or failure to atone.
Digressing a bit--I seem to be doing that a lot in my posts today--but I think it is worth while bearing in mind that when we say "religion," even when we are talking about a religion that unfortunately has the rap of being fairly oppressive in some contexts, we need to remember that interpretations vary, and second-hand knowledge, i.e. the type that is most common in popular culture, is usually unreliable.
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 13976
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Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:14 |
[Quote]
I'm a Christian and don't believe in Satan or the traditional notion of hell.  [Quote]
Christian and Catholic are not the same thing. The second is a subset of the first, like progressive and symphonic prog. I think Satan, as character, is mentioned in the episode of Christ's temptation in the desert, while Lucifer is the Greek myth of Prometeus revisited and Baal Zabab comes directly from another religion.
It's quite an interesting discussion, but I'd like to go back to music. I say again, until one is honest I have no problem wioth religious lyrics as religion can be an important side of one's life even if not mine. I don't know if Ozzy (just to name one) is a true Satanist and how much Black Sabbath were honest.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:14 |
Holy crap! Sixteen pages already!! I don't mind religious lyrics and prog. Religion involves belief in supernatural things and prog lyrics often explore supernatural subjects. But give me an intense instrumental that makes me go "Oh my God!!!" over religulous based lyrics any day. 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 13976
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Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:16 |
David Gilmour is supernatural guitar playing
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:30 |
octopus-4 wrote:
David Gilmour is supernatural guitar playing |
Gilmour is also an Atheist.
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Religious lyrics ?
