Religious lyrics ?
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Topic: Religious lyrics ?
Posted By: Marty McFly
Subject: Religious lyrics ?
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 12:23
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I'm little bit confused. I came from country where religion is almost extincted. In my part of Czech Republic, number of active believers is about 3% (something between facts and estimates, in the other words, I don't know anybody who do believe in god) so this forms my relation to religion too.
But I can speak English. I even can understand the lyrics, so I get one thing Moon Safari's Blomljud, lot of The Flower Kings (for example Church of Your Heart, probably the most famous song), Neal Morse's Question Mark (totally religious) and some things from Genesis (you know, the name and lyrics, behaviour of Gabriel at gigs, saviour hands raised etc) I love these songs, their quality is undoubtable. But for atheist like myself, doesn't these songs lose something from their message ? Doesn't these lyrics even ruin a thing for me ? I was just wondering, I keep listen to these songs a lot (try martymcfly89, my last.fm profile), in fact they're one of the most listened ones. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Replies:
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 12:33
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With me, as long as the religious overtones are not in your face apparent (like Jesus I love you and you are my saviour), I can deal with it. I can't tolerate Neal Morse. He should make all his solo material available as instrumentals. ------------- 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 12:34
| What he said. As long as they aren't preachy. |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 12:48
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Whoah, preachy. Preacher (to me this word means: "to talk others about Word [is there capital W?]), this is something awful to me.
Neal Morse is weird person. He has such a great voice (check Transatlantic - Live in Europe, Charlotte Suite / Abbey Road), he can play on various instruments, he's prolific. Well, simply talented prog musician, one of the best from modern times. It's also Roine's case, but he's a lot less religious. Also in this gig, he came to stage and raised his hands that they held about 90 degrees angle. You know, it just mentioned me his Christian career. Who knows, maybe this Jesus thing is giving him strenght to make his works, so we can be happy. And this preachy thing reminds me one song (parody one, on religious radio) from GTA II, part of this songs has lyrics: "Jesus my saviour, my favourite flavour", at least it is meant to be in parodic way) ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 13:00
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Morse is a little bit "preachy" because he has "found God" in the evangelical sense. Roine and The Flower Kings, to me, simply incorporate religious or mystic elements into the lyrics and music, an altogether different thing. I never found Gabriel particularly religious, aside from Passion which is, after all, a soundtrack to a story of Christ, but this is without lyrics. I still haven't figured out what The Lamb is about after all these years, but I sense a science fiction/mystical undercurrent rather than anything overtly religious. Much of his early Genesis work dealt with England as a past entity, and much of his later work with either personal issues or political issues, never religious ones. Nobody has ever really understood Jon Anderson's lyrics, and these, of course, very much deal with his own spiritual journey. On virtually every sleevenote for the past twenty years or so, he dedicates much of his music to "The Divine Mother". I enjoy religious influences or stories about personal journeys in any form of music, prog or otherwise, but I have always mistrusted "in your face" evangelical people. I find them too intense. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 13:57
I agree with this. Except the Morse-as-instrumental part. I think in "Sola Scriptura" his work was amazing. Yes, the lyrics are a little nonsensical for my point of view but the music is great.
By the way, that statistic you provided of your country is very interesting. And from my perspective, something to imitate.
Going back to prog, I could (actually, I would) tolerate even preachy lyrics if the music was incredibly good. It doesn't happen too often though. ------------- 
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StyLaZyn wrote:Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 14:17
Ultimately that's why I don't bother with Christian rock. But hey if there is anything out there with good music but preachy lyrics, I'd be willing to give it a listen. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 15:51
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I'm a Christian myself and I can't stand preachy stuff either. But there's a lot of preachy stuff, not only Christian. For example, I can't stand Banco because of their prachy "Darwin" (antireligion, evolutionism, etc.) |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 15:58
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I think "preachy" is a lame ass euphemism.
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 15:59
What often happens when people convert or really get bitten by the religious bug is they feel the need to spread the "message." When musicians do this, they have a ready audience, and even sometimes feel that they have been placed in front of people for that purpose. That very quickly turns me off, even if I like the person's music. I just don't like it when a musician gets all preachy and evangelizes through the music.  If I wanted that, I would go to church.
At the same time, I don't mind people expressing their spirituality in more quiet, subtle ways. The difference I see is that religion is about doctrine while spirituality is about living experience. I really like it though,when a song has some religious or spiritual undertones or symbolism. This conveys a sense of meaning to me, that the artist has something to say. If it's interesting and meaningful, then I'll listen. If it's superficial, I won't.
I think about this kind of stuff a lot.  ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 16:16
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Religion and spirituality are OK, make Prog richer.
Evangelism is wrong, turn a song into a jingle promoting a faith against the others.
And I'm a Cathilic, but also against Catholic evangelism in Prog, but never heard a case, thought The Hangman and The Papist was,. but heard the lyrics and are more about religious intollerance, and one of the most beautiful tracks in history:
Forgive me God we kill hin in thy name"
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 16:26
If that's a euphemism, what do you think I really mean? ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 16:32
"Preachy" doesn't have to be restricted to Christian lyrics. Anything telling me to do anything can be "preachy." Most Morse lyrics (and Livgren lyrics) are not preachy, despite what others say. They simply describe a biblical perspective of life. If you don't like it, pass on it. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 16:39
Sure, telling people the Pope has horns and that the Holy Saints of Catholic Church are Roman Gods with a diferent name is not preaching against other faith.
 Livegren on the other hand is very moderate.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 16:46
Context, Ivan, context. Most evangelistic Christians are not (or would not be) happy with the idea of selling indulgences. Which is partly what Sola Scripture is about. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 17:08
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I actually haven't heard any of Morse's works since he left Spock's Beard, and haven't been interested in getting any of them because I've read reviews saying he's "preachy" about his religion. I honestly don't care about a musician's religion, and usually don't mind if it's brought up in a song. If the music is good, it transcends the lyrics. And I usually don't listen to the lyrics the first few times through a prog album.
That said, I'm not terribly interested in listening to a song with a sole purpose of proclaiming a musician's personal piousness, righteousness, love of God, Jesus, Allah, Rama, Buddha, Elron, Satan, whatever. I don't want to be told that there is a "one true way". Does this make it bad music? No. I just don't want to hear it. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 17:13
I quite agree. It just seems that religious lyrics are the most prevalent of the preachy type. Followed by political lyrics. I'm not too keen on those either, and they especially tend to date a song very quickly. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 17:26
Right. But how is a songwriter praising his God and savior through song "preachy?" That's what I do not get. I've heard very few songs telling anybody to convert. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 17:51
OK, but he's preaching.
I'm not happy with Jehova Witnesses leaving people die because they refuse transfusions, but I don't go attacking them, much less with some radical Christian Scientists refusing medical attention, it's their choice if they are adults.
Plus the Church doesn't sell indulgences since centuries ago, and they always use this excuse to attack.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 18:07
The album has nothing to do with Jehovah's Witnesses. And who cares if the church hasn't sold indulgences in centuries- the album is about the importance of Martin Luther. In his day, it was a big deal. Sorry, but I just reviewed Sola Scriptura and Morse is not "preaching." ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: mr.cub
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 18:15
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Aqualung pretty much sums it up for me. Religion fascinates me, but I have never found the comfort and assurances other people find in it. I like to believe in the existence of God, but it is extremely difficult for me to do so. I'm an agnostic who occasionally attends church and I'm naturally attracted to lyrical content that understands my spiritual dilemma of sorts...
Jon Anderson based Tales off Shastic Scriptures; I find this and the eastern mysticism throughout his lyrical work intriguing as well. To me if it fits the music well, I have no problem with the lyrical content as long as it doesn't look down upon the listener (feeling their views are fact and superior to another) or insult the listener and his freedom to formulate his own opinion. ------------- 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 18:29
You didn't exactly explain what you thought I really meant and I certainly wasn't trying to be insulting. I'm usually pretty obvious if I am.  Livgren penned a lot of lyrics that had religious and/or spritual themes. I'm no expert on Christian rock, but when I think of preachy I think about this commercial I've seen for a Christian rock compilation album(s) where they show clips of the audience doing that whole talk to the hand thing. I'm guessing you might just know which one I'm talking about. Those tunes seem to be more about the preaching than about the music. All Jesus Jesus this and Lord Lord that. Contrast that with Bach's Jesu Joy Of Man's Desiring. It's obviously dedicated to Jesus, but anyone can listen to that and go "hey that's some cool music" regardless of your faith or lack thereof. |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 18:31
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Is this preachy? "Rejoice For the king is hereYes he's with us now Whispering in your ear" or "And the glory of the Lord Shall be face to faceAnd the glory And the glory of the Lord Shall dwell in this place And the Spirit And the Spirit of the Lord Shall be like a cloud Be ye holy And the Spirit of the Lord It shall fill the house" -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 18:34
Just a little bit.  How about this? Requests your earthly presence at The vicarage for tea. And the graven image you-know-who -- With his plastic crucifix -- Hes got him fixed --" Jethro Tull My God admin edit: posting full lyrics is a copyright breach, please don't do it. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 18:35
It all depends on how it is told. I enjoyed the album by Amaseffer, even though it's a biblical story. I see nothing offensive in telling the story of Martin Luther, if it is done in a historical sense. I understand he was important, historically. Just don't tell me I have to worship him. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 18:35
It is why i don't listen to Morse. It's over and over and over. One or two songs,OK, I can deal with that. -------------
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Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 18:55
Also, the way he left Spock's Beard, saying he couldn't play music that didn't deliver his message was something of a giveaway. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 19:04
Morse does not tell you to worship him. And why would you? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Bitterblogger
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 19:06
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The Only Way People are stirred, moved by the Word. Kneel at the shrine, deceived by the wine. How was the earth conceived? Infinite space-- is there such a place? You must believe in the human race.
ELP (Greg Lake, lyrics)
Most here on Prog Archives know this one. It certainly is about religion, and has a point of view, although if you read carefully, it's live-and-let-live ("who lights your way? Only you can say.") And how clever the title (and use of organ, the Western church instrument) capturing the no-doubt-in-my-mind arrogance both sides display.
admin edit: posting full lyrics is a copyright breach, please don't do it. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 19:07
Nope. Those words are scriptural; I see nothing wrong with representing the Bible in prog. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 19:10
And that is OK if it's what you like. -------------
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Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 19:13
Now, I didn't say Morse did preach, just that I assumed he did from the reviews of his albums, and his parting statement when he left SB. But if the lyrics posted above are his, they sound like prayers, more specifically, the type of prayers that often pass a Christian rock lyrics. They do not seem terribly creative, and actually quite boring. The music behind them would have to be spectacular to make it worth listening to. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 19:23
Of course they are not "creative." They are from the Bible. Where else should a Christian derive his lyrics? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 19:23
Everything is OKAY in prog so long as you like it. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: cobb2
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 19:27
| I treat religious lyrics like any other epic fantasy... |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 19:35
And Prog is full of fantasy. -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 19:40
By the way, have you listened to Rick Wakeman's In The Beginning? An album in which the female vocalist reads excerpts from the Bible with Rick doing music. I'd have to say that's non-preachy. I think you'd like it. Of course if you want to go into a whole weird area, there is always The Residents Wormwood....
From his own creative intellect perhaps? And weren't the Biblical texts creative in their own right? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 20:06
If I sang lines from The Odyssey, I don't think that counts as being creative lyrically. Also, I've much (not all) of Wormwood. It is based on poor interpretations of the culture of the Bible (like the story of Jephthah- he did not burn his daughter, for instance). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 20:27
Well, they do take some creative license to put it mildly. Not to mention deliberately picking out some of the weirder parts of the Bible.I dunno, have you tried singing lines from The Odyssey in a higher register? ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 20:42
Of course it has nothing to do with JW, that was my example, but say whatever, Morse is preaching, teaching Luther from a Christian perspective and attacking other religion......That's why I believe evangelism in Rock is wrong.
You say he's not preaching, to the text I go
So in my hour of pain and sorrow Please, Jesus, walk me through the dark 'Cause if I die with him I will rise again With heaven in my heart Oh God, help me to have heaven in my heart My God he has a plan and I can do no other God help me, here I stand, this is the only way Please man, this is not a historical perspective, this is clear preaching Look I got two big horns like a lamb
Even though Peter was married I can't Look I've got great big armie like a General I may have a mistress but at least I'm a hetero This is an attack to principles of the Catholic faith that subsist until today like celibacy, you may agree or not with it, but it's part of our beliefs...No relation with indulgences, just an excuse to attack. We'll take the Roman Gods except the names will all be changed
This is an attack to the Saints, has no relation with indulgences, is just an excuse to preach attacking a different belief.
So please, it's obvious he's preaching.
Iván admin edit: posting full lyrics is a copyright breach, please don't do it. -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 20:57
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I kinda like this one from Marillion: Why do the gods Sit back and watch So many lost What kind of mother Leaves a child in the traffic Turning tricks in the dark What kind of god? admin edit: posting full lyrics is a copyright breach, please don't do it. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 22:51
I still don't see how that's preaching.He's basically showing us what Luther may have thought as he went through these trials. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: May 28 2009 at 23:49
No it's not... but yeah it's not creative either. To be fair these are some of his worst lyrics. He has some great lines, even in his Christian stuff.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 00:28
You said the magic word MAY (According to Morse)
That's preaching, placing him as almost an equivalent of a saint, when as a act we know he thought differenty things along his life.
What about the clear attacks against another Church?
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 00:42
| Blah Blah, "I can't handle viewpoints different than mine", blah, blah. Pretty much sums up this thread. Grow some skin people. If you have any will power in applying your philosophy/religion/whatever, you shouldn't feel turned off by other people's views or even direct attacks. Have the courage of your convictions for Spaghetti's Monster's sake. |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 00:47
Because singular viewpoints held by an overwhelming majority never leads to anything bad (cough, Crusades, cough.) Why can't people celebrate differences for a change? Why are they always treated like battle lines? |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 07:19
I used the word "may" Ivan because i didn't know if Morse was paraphrasing something Luther himself may have actually said. I still don't know that but it just seems like reasonable thoughts from someone going against a powerful organisation. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 07:38
Placing who on the equivalent of a saint? Imagine that...a Church being negative about another Church. Such a wonderful God to guide his flock into different beliefs. Russian roulette for the soul. -------------
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 09:10
I actually think this discussion is far more "preachy" than any of the music in question .... heck, they don't even have the guts to mention " The Soft Parade" .... the rest is just piddly stuff used as a fill-in for a "lyric" ...
It also gets the attention of people that don't know any better!
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 09:41
Anyway to get back to the original; posters question about lyrics, if they offend me then i don't listen to it,but for me lyrics are secondary to the music. There are some albums though where the lyrics really do add to the my enjoyment of it, like "Sola Scriptura". ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 09:55
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Religion hasn´t really served the artists and knowlegde of mankind. I therefore wander why one would love to sing about it. I myself see inspiration to write great songs as a devine gift, but no reason there to refer to age old beliefs called monotheistic religions that just were confenient at the time. We now all have acces to knowlegde and this will hopefully lead to wisdom and ethics. Now, that´s something to sing about! Critisize your society for it´s flaws! And luckely, a lot of artist do just that. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 09:56
Just as a note, The Last temptation of crist, as not an religous film in the Classic sence.
Made by Allan Parker,  ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 09:57
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 10:16
Someone did a movie about the governor of Florida? ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 11:16
Maybe the word Saint is not perfect,because they deny the existence of saints, but this album is selling us the idea of a wonderful man that based his acts in God against the "corrupt·" Cathollic Church, but by own confession in the notes of the album Mr. Morse never included Luther's real feelings, of course he never mentions quotes that you can't say may passed by the head of Luther, but words he said.:
Of course this is not included in the album, only talks about the terrible Catholic Church, in the notes he mentions this sick anti semitism of Luther, but says something like he decided not to mention in the album, because Luther did great things (or something like that).
 Yes the Catholic Church made terrible mistakes, but the Pope John Paul II asked for pardon to the people.
It's not God who guides men into this path, because of free will, man decides what to do.
I remember my mentor in the University, the great theologist Father Francesco Interdonatto (SJ) told us that the Catholic who didn't respected a Mosque or a Sinagogue was not a Catholic, because Allah, the God of the Jewishs and the God of the Christians is the same one, the same God of Abraham.
Iván
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Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 11:29
| ^ Your mentor kicks some unbelievable ass Ivan. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 12:08
Yes,he was a great man, recognized as Great Theoligist by the Vatican, one of the hardest proffesors I had, he asked us not to study or memorize, but to understand.
He wore the same shirt all the semester, old but clean, used a motorcycle, I believe from WW II, gave classes all day, never absent even when dying on cancer, and still had time to play sports in the beach all summer, I heard he said that his place was with the sinners, but I honestly believe he just loved the beach.
Despite he was Italian (A big red faced man) he rests in a humble tomb in Peru that he loved so much.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 12:11
Neal found out after the album was finished that Martin Luther was anti-jewish and he debated if he should still release it but was encouraged to do so.I'm glad he did.I personally am an Isreal backer all the way.They're God's chosen people in my opinion.Do you want the story of Martin Luther censored? Because it's pretty hard to tell his story without making the Catholic church look bad.It's just history. By the way i have no doubt God guides people today, you don't have to rely on some person in their fancy clothes. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 12:18
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Very comfortable position, hidding those terrible words that would make hitler pale, and attacking other Church, well I understand it's harder to say "The catholic Church was bad but Luther wanted to vanmish the Jewishs from the face of the earth"
You say iot's hard to talk about Luther without attacking the catholic Church,n but seems very easy to attack the Catholic Church and hide Luther's history under the carpet.
Haver you ever heard a Catholic, Jewish or Moslem song attacking Luther?
Nope, we don't care at all, we don't loose our time hating those who some call brothers in christ or make evangelism through Rock.
Sorry, but that's the reason why I don't agree with Christian, Catholic or Jewish Rock if it does evangelism, they destroy the credibilty of music.
As Hank Hill said "Can’t you see you’re not making Christianity better, you’re just making rock n’ roll worse"
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 12:41
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Evangelism is telling the Good News of God's grace. That's what the word means. As a Christian who owes his life to Jesus, I can't think of anything more deserving of my time and energy as a musician and songwriter than to write songs reflecting the truths of the Bible. After all, the whole book of Psalms is nothing but songs ultimately praising and honoring God... ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:16
I will leave it as such, regardless of what I consider flawed logic. This thread should remain on topic. -------------
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Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:18
How about a song reflecting the fallacies and contradictions of the Bible. Or does that offend? ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:19
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While I find the lyrics of Morse's solo albums to be repetitive, dull, and largely uncreative, I also don't have any problem with listening to them. I'm not a Christian, though I used to think I was (and am probably more of one now that I don't think of myself as one, if that makes any sense, as my outlook is much more humble than it was back then). My biggest issue then is really the sameness and lack of creativity I hear in so many of Neal's lyrics. Does Jesus have some problem with people getting creative with the Good News? Because it often seems that way to me. Plus, the guys in Glass Hammer are Christians but feel no need to write about it in their lyrics. Many of their lyrics reflect their beliefs in more subtle ways. I just find that putting spirituality into lyrics doesn't have to be an exercise in repeating the same things over and over and over again. I also wonder just who Morse is writing these lyrics for? I suppose for God, because he isn't going to sway, or even attract the interest of, anyone who isn't already a firm believer like himself. I enjoy his music (except for much of the most recent album), and find the lyrics tolerable and unoffensive enough that I can appreciate his albums for what they are. But I really wish he'd get more creative with the lyrics (and actually, I liked ? primarily because he DID use actual scripture mixed in with his own lyrics and I think that album worked the best lyrically of all of them). |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:22
Remember, it was the great Dr. Gregory House who said: "Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise there would be no religious people." ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:28
I like that character.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:44
If there were any... ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:44
 ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: jimidom
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:44
However, I can see how some could mistake singing the praises of the Lord for preaching. If you truly want to hear preaching in rock & roll, listen to Bob Dylan's Slow Train Coming. I myself prefer the allegorical approach of early King's X. ------------- "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:48
I have nothing to add to or withdraw from this statement.------------- 
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:55
I believe Neal when he says he didn't know about Luther's anti-Jewish stance because until i read that in the liner notes myself(and then looked it up on Wikipedia) i didn't know either.So maybe your right that that part of his life or character has been swept under the carpet.It was news to me. I've been thinking your too sensitive about it but maybe i've been too insensitive.Sorry. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 13:59
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While a strong opponent of religion (see my avatar), I have to say that religious inspiration has given mankind some of the absolute best musical pieces of all time... just listen to the works of JSBach, GFHandel (though more secular), Anton Bruckner, and countless others who took inspiration from their faith.
Yes, the question would be: "wouldn't they have composed those works anyway without religious inspiration?" The answer is: we will never know, and thank their god for inspiring them to create some of the absolute best music that has been created.
Now, in today's rock, I think both crazy religious fanatics and anti-religious madmen have the same right to preach. It's in my power to decide what sermon to listen. And HOW to listen to it.
In the end, if the music is good, they could be singing about the life and work of Jonah inside the whale that the piece would stull deserve a listen.
But, as Torman Maxt proves, that combination is rare. -------------
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Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 14:03
Oh, please. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 14:05
Your claim that there are contradictions and fallacies is just as useless as my claim that there are none. You would have to cite an example, and I would have to show how it is not an example. However, this is not the place to do it. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 14:18
Whatever
 ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 14:23
------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 15:01
Your avatar is a symbol of Satanism, which is completely derived from religion (i.e. the Old and New Testaments of the Bible). So it's kind of a contradiction to suggest that Satanism is anti-religion when it owes its very existence to religion. Other than that, I agree with your post completely. |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 15:06
Someone make a thread in General Discussion.  -------------
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 15:10
House is the best! Love that show. Especially Ms. Morrison.  -------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 15:13
By "place," that's what I meant. This isn't the thread. I'd be happy to answer objections. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 15:30
Yes, I know.  -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 15:35
Yeah, and she's no longer in the cast. Boooo!!!!  She does play Kirk's mom in the new Star Trek movie though. Yay!!  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 15:58
No way...she's not on House? Must have been a war between her and 13 for the most babe-ilicious.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 16:07
Do you beńieve that listening someone compare our religious leader and the direct representative of Christ on earth according to our beliefs with a beast with horns is being oversensitive?
Do you believe that reading how Mr. Morse compares our saints with pagan gods is being over sensitive?
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 16:28
I guess i believe that people are people. Luther was a great reformist regardless of his anti-Jewish beliefs. In fact God tends to use people who are far from perfect, the Bible has a lot of examples.You put people(saints) on a pedestals like the Romans put gods on a pedestal.That's his comparison. As far as Morse comparing the pope with a beast with horns i missed that in the lyrics. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 16:40
Themn why does he criticizes the Pope of those days, if "In fact God tends to use people who are far from perfect, the Bible has a lot of examples"
If you criticize somebody, you have to be better than him, a person who wants to exterminate a race (well two, he doesn't like the gysies either) or wtrites aberrations like this that would make Hitler proud:
Can criticize nobody.....For God's sdake, Mein Kampf is a nursery rhyme book conmmpared with this abomination that everybody seem to ignore.
Saints are people who received the grace of God, not a pagan divinity.
Just in case you missed that part:
Look I got two big horns like a lamb
Even though Peter was married I can't Look I've got great big armie like a General I may have a mistress but at least I'm a hetero Iván -------------
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 16:58
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That last paragraph by Morse is out of line,thanks for putting it up there,i don't have the cd with me here at work. And i had no idea that Luther went to those lengths in his hatred against Jews. Like i said i just read some of his bio in Wikipedia which mentioned he was anti-Jewish. No wonder Neal almost didn't release this album,maybe he shouldn't have? ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 17:05
------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 17:12
Well, the truth is that Catholic Church didn't loved the Jewishs either, the Inquisition is a prove of that, but the point is that all the religions made mistakes but is important to notice them and give a step back as John Paul II did when he asked for pardon of the acts that were commited long before his time.
What is absurd is to keep atacking ourselves as enemies when we venerate the same God, even the Moslems and Jewishs accept the God of Abraham as their God.
I remember reading that when the puppet of Mike Rutherford in Land of Confusion (Or one similar) was used to represent Christ (I believe in a BBC program), the ones that protested were the Muslims, that was a nice gesture, being that Jesus is not even the principal Profet for them, but they showed respect.....Don't know if this is an urban myth, but Muslims have great respect for Christ
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 17:25
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Wow, Ivan, that's some nasty stuff. I didn't know that about Martin Luther. Thanks for posting it.
What is the context of that "hetero" line. I can't tell from your original posting if it goes with the verses above it. Is he singing from the supposed viewpoint of the Pope? ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 17:38
I am clueless about the absolutely out of context phrase, not something The Pope Leon X would say or even think in 1518, I'm sure nobody was tolerant with homosexuals then.
It's in the song "The Conflic" from Sola Scriptura
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 17:41
I like that line. That's pretty much because I agree with it though. However, I din't see it so much as an indictment on the CC, but rather on organized faith as a whole. There's quite a few evangelicals that hold marriage to be inconsistent with ministry, not just the CC. The gay thing is even more applicable given the homophobia of modern US religions. Yea ML got pretty intolerant. However, most of that was in his later years, well after the 95 theses. In his earlier writings he actually encouraged compassion in dealing with jews. I halfway wonder sometimes if some of his works weren't doctored by others for their own agendas b/c his viewpoitn varies wildly over the course of life. Maybe one just kicked him in the shin or something. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 18:07
Then is out of Context, because this is suposed to be a work about the Reformation, not about Neal Morse's views about modern Church.
I supposed that was preaching about his own beliefs, because the term is from Greek origin and for that reason not used in 1518.
More reasons to believe he's preaching.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 18:21
I agree Ivan that showing love and compassion for people who have different beliefs than us is a powerful thing.And your example of John Paul II is a good one.------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 18:23
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I like the lyrics of Sola Scriptura, and I agree with them, both historically and as a Christian. I'll leave it at that since this is not a thread to debate the pros and cons of Catholicism or Martin Luther. I am a fan of the Reformation, but do not support anti-Semitism. I'm also a fan of artists saying whatever they like in their music and no one whining about it. Have I ever railed against the anti-Christian and anti-conservative lyrics that pervade most prog rock? Not once. Oh and EDIT: If artists want to preach, GOOD. I attend service twice a week that has preaching. It's good for me. If it's not for you, don't listen to it. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 18:29
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Also, Ivan, I do not worship Allah, the god of Islam. I've read the Koran, several teachings of Mohammed, and if you agree with your professor that Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God, you are mistaken: "The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'" (Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176) Muslims and Jews worship the same God? To use your word...please. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 18:40
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I'm wondering at this point...should this really be in the prog lounge? This has become more of a Protestant v. Catholic debate now instead of actually being about religious lyrics in prog. Let's move this to general discussions. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 18:47
for Robert.------------- 
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Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 19:26
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I Know I'm kind of late for the train on this topic but I like religion in my lyrics in some cases...
Lawdy lawdy lawdy Miss Clawdy!
God damn the pusher man!
Good God y'all!
Jesus was a heartbreaker.
Ring of fire...
Sabbath bloody sabbath...
"Abe said where you want this killin done? God said, do it out on highway 61."
http://www.garageband.com/song?|pe1|S8LTM0LdsaSnZFiyam8 - http://www.garageband.com/song?|pe1|S8LTM0LdsaSnZFiyam8
Stuff like that.
If I wanted gospels and psalms from befuddled missionaries (and I dont), I would not listen to Prog or any form of Rock music. ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 19:38
The relations between Jewishs and Moslems is another problem, but this doesn't mean Allah is not the God of Abraham.
Still you doubt that Allah the God of Abraham?
Remember that the Bible recognizes Ishmael as the father of the Arab race and Ishmael is Abraham's son:
So, don't you believe in the Holy Bible?
BTW: My teacher was not only a Priest, but a recognized theologist who spent years studying the holy texts of many religions plus a good and tolerant man of God, If I have to choose to believe in your interpretation and his....I go with his interpretation.
Despite this fact, the Quran and the Bible are clear Abraham worshiped Yahveh according to the Bible and Torah but also Allah according to the Quran.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: May 29 2009 at 19:50
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It's a simple theological matter Ivan. If the god of Islam teaches something contrary to the God of Christianity, they cannot be the same god. It doesn't matter what "ties" Islam has to Ishmael. They are two different and mostly contrary religions. After all, Christianity believes Christ is God. Muslims do not. It's fairly simple. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |