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The Monodrone 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 21 2010
Location: Indiana, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4489
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 Posted: May 21 2010 at 18:32 |
 jampa17 wrote:
ptkc123 wrote:
rushfan4 wrote:
First off, I like The Incident. Second off, you will be hard press to find too many people in the forum that will agree with you on your assessment of The Incident. Most forum members seems to dislike The Incident as much, if not more than Black Clouds and Silver Linings. Shouldn't detract from your liking The Incident, but I am just saying. (Trust me I've seen enough snipes at both bands to last me a thousand lifetimes). |
I didn't say that I liked The Incident, though I do like it, I was just stating that I believe Porcupine Tree have a better sense of direction and non-stagnation vs. Dream Theater, even if The Incident wasn't their best album; I believe it shows great musical transition and I think their next album will be much greater than The Incident. I'm glad to hear that you enjoy The Incident! ; ) |
Look dude... I know you mention it as a joke, so I honesty ignore the comment, but someone hit it again and just let me tell you that The Incident is a plain boring kind of conceptual album... I wonder why there's always someone talking good about PT in every single thread we have hear... we are talking about a Prog Metal band and you mention a space rock band...? I mean, if don't want that people pick up against PT, isn't better to stay to the focus of the discussion...? an Alternative Rock band with long arrangements, for me that's all about PT and there's nothing further... but I don't care and I won't bash them just because they are boring to me... just I won't mention them... I don't care... enough to say I don't care if Steven Wilson is ruin PT or not... is his band and he can do whatever he likes with it...
Portnoy is the same, and I as a fan have a lot of extra material thanks to him... he dedicates himself to give more to the fans... if you like it or not... is your problem...
and don't try to attack me because I don't like PT... just move on and stay to the focus of the thread... OK..? |
I could care less if you did or did not like Porcupine Tree. I just left a joke-comment and everyone decided to take it like I said the world was ending RIGHT NOW. I'll just move out of this thread.
Long live Porcupine Tree!
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LiquidEternity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 07 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 900
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 19:18 |
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You said something and people are discussing it. Why are you so upset?
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The Monodrone
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 21 2010
Location: Indiana, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4489
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 19:59 |
I'm not upset. 
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The Monodrone
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 21 2010
Location: Indiana, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4489
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 20:00 |
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I just found it odd that they took it so seriously, that's all.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 20:29 |
rushfan4 wrote:
I suppose that they tried to progress by adding growls  , and yes from that standpoint Portnoy is ruining Dream Theater.  Or is it just a case of expecting them to come up with something that is totally new, innovative, and earth shattering that you don't even know what it is, but when it happens you will know it? |
Progressing is not just adding new sonic elements, you can explore a different compositional approach or simply delve deeper into territory you had recently covered (not the same thing as repeating the previous album at all!). As LiquidEternity points out, it can be rather hard in metal though because as he rightly said, metal fans see metal as an end (and yes, I am also getting tired of metal in general!  ). But I have not really got the sense of a band advancing as composers with later DT...it sounds more like they try out some things, watch the fans' reactions and then try something else if that doesn't work and so on. I don't really care if or if it is not progressive because that doesn't affect my liking much, but I certainly don't find it interesting.
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The Monodrone
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 21 2010
Location: Indiana, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4489
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 20:42 |
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To be honest, I used to really like DT, but a got a few of their newer albums and I just didn't get it; well, I did get it, I just didn't like it much. I found Systematic Chaos's songs to be too long and drawn out. It left the songs as harsh music that couldn't easily be listened to before switching to the next track. I&W had a lot of flavor, though I don't care much for it now, that added replay value to those songs. I feel that what their doing now is just trying to sound darker (it comes through very artifically, though) and there's not enough substance to back it up, IMO. They need to let loose a little bit.
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LiquidEternity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 07 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 900
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 21:12 |
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In defense of Dream Theater, they do not have growls in their new album. In fact, there originally were, and they sounded much better, but most of the rest of the band vetoed them as "too out-of-the-box for Dream Theater" and instead had Portnoy harshly speak the words. Or some crap like that. Personally, had they left the growls in, that section would sound much better. I'm not a big fan of growls, but sometimes they do just need to happen.
Although I see them differently than most do. You all see a bunch of posers trying to please everyone... I see them as a band full of nerds who want to make music that makes them happy. The lack of innovation is a failure of creative imagination and talent on their part, not effort.
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javier0889
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 21 2010
Location: Chile
Status: Offline
Points: 170
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Posted: May 22 2010 at 00:57 |
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Mike Portnoy, John Petrucci, Steven Wilson et al are respectable 40yo men now. Let them do what they want.
Plus, if you dislike their work, then make your own prog band and try to be better than them. It's that easy.
Edited by javier0889 - May 22 2010 at 00:58
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: May 22 2010 at 10:23 |
javier0889 wrote:
Mike Portnoy, John Petrucci, Steven Wilson et al are respectable 40yo men now. Let them do what they want. |
And how does an internet discussion 'stop' them from doing what they want? Are people not allowed to express anything but an unconditionally positive opinion on Dream Theater?
javier0889 wrote:
Plus, if you dislike their work, then make your own prog band and try to be better than them. It's that easy.
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Irrelevant again, a listener is entitled to dislike a band's work and also entitled to say so.
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LiquidEternity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 07 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 900
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Posted: May 22 2010 at 10:42 |
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And for the record, it's not that easy. I've tried writing the prog to end all prog, and it ends up coming out like half a layer in a Gentle Giant song.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: May 22 2010 at 11:34 |
jampa17 wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
1. Mike Portnoy *is* Dream Theater. Ok, Petrucci also has some influence, but Mike is the boss. And I doubt he would ruin the band ... they made their mark, and if he takes them into a direction that I don't like, so what.
2. IMO Octavarium was the creative low point ... I liked Systematic Chaos (except for two songs) and I really like BC&SL.
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I have the two editions of their official Biography, so yes, I'm one of those hard fans... and it reveals a lot of insides. Mike is the boss... sure, but Petrucci is the partner, the difference is that John is a lot open to the ideas of Mike, and at the end, the interest and control freak of Mike is what has taken them to how succesful they are now... just like Mario Bros said above, if you like it or not, that's your problem... but they are not ruined, the fan base is there to show it... now, if they sell out someday, you can be sure their fanbase would be lost... but well....
I don't hear BC is power metal... The Best of Times is not power metal and The Count of Tuscany.. no... no lord.. |
Did I ever claim that BC&SL was Power Metal?
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
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Posted: May 22 2010 at 12:44 |
ptkc123 wrote:
LiquidEternity wrote:
This problem that plagues Dream Theater is more or less the exact one that is plaguing 97% of metal these days. Lots of fans and bands view metal as an end in itself. The heaviness. The fast drums. All that kind of stuff. Bands take old hits and perform "metal versions." And fans eat this up. I like metal plenty, don't get me wrong. But there is no reason to accuse Dream Theater of having a stagnant sound when all their peers are fairly motionless too. Opeth has moved around a bit, but in the grand scheme of things not much at all. Meshuggah has not yet written two songs that don't sound identical to each other and to the other parts of the songs. Pain of Salvation decided to drop the idea of metal in itself, and they have received gallons of hate and spite since (and I haven't even heard their latest one yet, but I understand it's not metal in the slightest). Symphony X is a joke of repetition, despite their talent and strong melodic hooks. Ayreon is historically samey throughout.
The list goes on. And it's not a problem just for metal to stagnate, but it's a trend I've noticed. Maybe I've just gotten bored of the genre somewhat, but I am largely unimpressed with everything metal I hear these days. And whoever suggested Porcupine Tree as a solution for bands with flagging inspiration... clearly hasn't heard The Incident.
Heck, even Devin Townsend, one of my favorite artists period, is fairly redundant from album to album. Nobody's all that exempt.
So blaming Portnoy is kinda missing the point. I don't know why he brings out such hate in people. Really, I'm not that into Dream Theater's music any longer, but the man's attitude and interest in both his band and his fans is admirable.
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I definitely have heard and own The Incident, thank you. I think that what Porcupine Tree are doing, in terms of creativity and originality, vastly outreach DT's grasp of what true musical evolution is. Besides, it was meant as more of a joke, and I'm sorry that you took it so seriously. I just don't think Dream Theater as a whole know what they're really doing, and I believe Porcupine Tree does have a good sense of direction and evolution... my two cents.  |
Steven Wilson is a notorious 70s prog buff but the difference between PT and Dream Theater is that the former actually embrace music that was made after 1986.
They are not the most original prog band no, but they try something different with every album.
Edited by boo boo - May 22 2010 at 12:46
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The Monodrone
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 21 2010
Location: Indiana, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4489
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Posted: May 22 2010 at 20:45 |
boo boo wrote:
ptkc123 wrote:
LiquidEternity wrote:
This problem that plagues Dream Theater is more or less the exact one that is plaguing 97% of metal these days. Lots of fans and bands view metal as an end in itself. The heaviness. The fast drums. All that kind of stuff. Bands take old hits and perform "metal versions." And fans eat this up. I like metal plenty, don't get me wrong. But there is no reason to accuse Dream Theater of having a stagnant sound when all their peers are fairly motionless too. Opeth has moved around a bit, but in the grand scheme of things not much at all. Meshuggah has not yet written two songs that don't sound identical to each other and to the other parts of the songs. Pain of Salvation decided to drop the idea of metal in itself, and they have received gallons of hate and spite since (and I haven't even heard their latest one yet, but I understand it's not metal in the slightest). Symphony X is a joke of repetition, despite their talent and strong melodic hooks. Ayreon is historically samey throughout.
The list goes on. And it's not a problem just for metal to stagnate, but it's a trend I've noticed. Maybe I've just gotten bored of the genre somewhat, but I am largely unimpressed with everything metal I hear these days. And whoever suggested Porcupine Tree as a solution for bands with flagging inspiration... clearly hasn't heard The Incident.
Heck, even Devin Townsend, one of my favorite artists period, is fairly redundant from album to album. Nobody's all that exempt.
So blaming Portnoy is kinda missing the point. I don't know why he brings out such hate in people. Really, I'm not that into Dream Theater's music any longer, but the man's attitude and interest in both his band and his fans is admirable.
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I definitely have heard and own The Incident, thank you. I think that what Porcupine Tree are doing, in terms of creativity and originality, vastly outreach DT's grasp of what true musical evolution is. Besides, it was meant as more of a joke, and I'm sorry that you took it so seriously. I just don't think Dream Theater as a whole know what they're really doing, and I believe Porcupine Tree does have a good sense of direction and evolution... my two cents. |
Steven Wilson is a notorious 70s prog buff but the difference between PT and Dream Theater is that the former actually embrace music that was made after 1986.
They are not the most original prog band no, but they try something different with every album. |
Finally...Thank You! 
DT are just stuck crowding over stagnant 80s power metal. They really need to evolve in order to break their current musical barriers. Steven Wilson is always trying something new, and its always fresh to his fans...that's why he has so many.
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LiquidEternity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 07 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 900
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Posted: May 22 2010 at 20:54 |
Dream Theater has more. 
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DisgruntledPorcupine
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 16 2010
Location: Thunder Bay CAN
Status: Offline
Points: 4395
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Posted: May 22 2010 at 21:14 |
The thing with Dream Theater is what other people think of them.
The fanboys are incredibly annoying. With their talk of 85643965279452 nps John Petrucci solos.
The haters are even more annoying because they all come off (for lack of a better word) close-minded.
Dream Theater is my favourite band, but I can admit BCaSL was a slip down from their other things. Seriously though, the haters annoy me because Dream Theater can do whatever they want. I respect the fact that they do what they want and not what the fans want. It's their band, not yours. The only sort of case this is a problem is with 80s Yes and Genesis and other bands because they plain sold out to the radio companies and to mainstream. Dream Theater isn't selling out (thats just what all the trolls say), they're experimenting into new grounds. Falling Into Infinity was close to selling out, but they followed up with SFaM to assure us that they're still themselves. I'm not being a fanboy, I'm just using my brain.
Edited by DT-PT - May 22 2010 at 21:17
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The Monodrone
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 21 2010
Location: Indiana, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4489
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Posted: May 22 2010 at 21:17 |
LiquidEternity wrote:
Dream Theater has more. |
Yeah, I guess so... but who has more songs (or any) on Rock Band??  Hmmm...
DT has also been around longer...
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: May 23 2010 at 01:56 |
Not really, PT just took much longer to work their way up, DT made a big splash with their second album. It's a Hobson's choice for me between most PT and later DT, neither particularly interest me. AND, DT are not playing 80s power metal of late, it's modern metal and elements of metalcore can be heard here and there too. I also think the fans take the sellout cries too literally. I think people are referring to an element of insincerity in the way the later albums have been written when they say this, sorta as if so long as they put in some hot licks in a few songs, the fans will be happy. Considering what a coherent impression I&W and Awake made by contrast, it's hard for me not to feel that that is the case.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: May 23 2010 at 02:15 |
javier0889 wrote:
Mike Portnoy, John Petrucci, Steven Wilson et al are respectable 40yo men now. Let them do what they want.
Plus, if you dislike their work, then make your own prog band and try to be better than them. It's that easy.
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Posts like this annoy the hell out of me.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: May 23 2010 at 03:24 |
DT-PT wrote:
The thing with Dream Theater is what other people think of them.
The fanboys are incredibly annoying. With their talk of 85643965279452 nps John Petrucci solos. |
Usually it's the haters who keep bringing up that subject.
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Kashmir75
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 25 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1029
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Posted: May 23 2010 at 06:45 |
ptkc123 wrote:
boo boo wrote:
ptkc123 wrote:
LiquidEternity wrote:
This problem that plagues Dream Theater is more or less the exact one that is plaguing 97% of metal these days. Lots of fans and bands view metal as an end in itself. The heaviness. The fast drums. All that kind of stuff. Bands take old hits and perform "metal versions." And fans eat this up. I like metal plenty, don't get me wrong. But there is no reason to accuse Dream Theater of having a stagnant sound when all their peers are fairly motionless too. Opeth has moved around a bit, but in the grand scheme of things not much at all. Meshuggah has not yet written two songs that don't sound identical to each other and to the other parts of the songs. Pain of Salvation decided to drop the idea of metal in itself, and they have received gallons of hate and spite since (and I haven't even heard their latest one yet, but I understand it's not metal in the slightest). Symphony X is a joke of repetition, despite their talent and strong melodic hooks. Ayreon is historically samey throughout.
The list goes on. And it's not a problem just for metal to stagnate, but it's a trend I've noticed. Maybe I've just gotten bored of the genre somewhat, but I am largely unimpressed with everything metal I hear these days. And whoever suggested Porcupine Tree as a solution for bands with flagging inspiration... clearly hasn't heard The Incident.
Heck, even Devin Townsend, one of my favorite artists period, is fairly redundant from album to album. Nobody's all that exempt.
So blaming Portnoy is kinda missing the point. I don't know why he brings out such hate in people. Really, I'm not that into Dream Theater's music any longer, but the man's attitude and interest in both his band and his fans is admirable.
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I definitely have heard and own The Incident, thank you. I think that what Porcupine Tree are doing, in terms of creativity and originality, vastly outreach DT's grasp of what true musical evolution is. Besides, it was meant as more of a joke, and I'm sorry that you took it so seriously. I just don't think Dream Theater as a whole know what they're really doing, and I believe Porcupine Tree does have a good sense of direction and evolution... my two cents. |
Steven Wilson is a notorious 70s prog buff but the difference between PT and Dream Theater is that the former actually embrace music that was made after 1986.
They are not the most original prog band no, but they try something different with every album. |
Finally...Thank You!
DT are just stuck crowding over stagnant 80s power metal. They really need to evolve in order to break their current musical barriers. Steven Wilson is always trying something new, and its always fresh to his fans...that's why he has so many. |
I'm with you, ptkc123. I am a PT fan and a DT fan, but the latter has kind of creatively stagnated recently. I think the last great DT album was Octavarium.
PT certainly try to do something different with every album, and Wilson as a songwriter is just in another league to Dream Theater.
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Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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Is Mike Portnoy ruining Dream Theater?
