Is Mike Portnoy ruining Dream Theater?
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Topic: Is Mike Portnoy ruining Dream Theater?
Posted By: Babak RP
Subject: Is Mike Portnoy ruining Dream Theater?
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 04:12
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Before I start, I should say that I've been a huge Dream Theater fan up to Systematic Chaos. But what now? What has happened to the favourite band of hunderd thousands of people around the world? Black Cloud & Silver Linings can be described as one of the disappointing moments in DT's career; and in my opinion the credit for this relative failure goes to Mike Portnoy and his attitude and growing control over the band's musical direction. Maybe he's suffering from mid-life crisis and he wants to prove to the world that he can still play and act (and GROWL) like a 25-year old. Whatever the reason is, he seems to be the one in the band who makes all the decisions and has tightened his grip on DT gradually over the last years. The result is the suffocation of DT's creartivity. The result is an album sounding like a poor cover version of their own great material.
Is it really the same band that has recorded master-pieces such as Images & Words? There's no doubt that Mike is a great drummer and musician, but he should stop playing the boss and give us our beloved DT back.
Babak RP, Tehran-Iran
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Replies:
Posted By: topographicbroadways
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 04:32
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black clouds in silver linings was a little too metal oriented i like dream theater metal moments but when they are just that: moments. having said that the count of tuscany is one of my favourite dream theater pieces it managed too compete with in the presence of enemies and octavarium.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 04:43
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I've listened to 'Black clouds...' twice. There is nothing remarkable about the album as a whole. It's pretty formulaic and predictable. 'Count of Tuscany' is pretty good, I guess.
I'm not a DT expert, so I'm not really aware of the grip that Portnoy has on the band, or to what extent he influences their direction. All I know is that I've heard much better stuff from DT, than 'Black Clouds..' and, if I'm honest 'Systematic Chaos' too. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Hox
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 05:29
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I think Dream Teather are like Steve Vai: great mastery in playing instrument coupled with few revolutionary ideas. Infact many years ago I discovered them by a colleague, he played them at work. For first I believed they were a cover band because most of the song I heard were by other bands like Yes or Pink Floyd. But also the other tracks gave me a continuous sens of deja vu. So I don't think Portnoy is ruining DT. In my very humble opinion they simply are paying on long term for what I wrote up here. Blacksword confirms with his very tight and occam-driven definition "formulaic and predictable". |
Posted By: Hox
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 05:33
| If they enrolled Mike Patton :-D probably they could be best prog band of new millennium. They are kind of Mother of Inventions without a Zappa at their back. |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 06:42
There's not much to ruin. 
Petrucci, Myung, Portnoy and Rudess are all talented. But they need a new singer and someone to guide them, and some actual ambition for crying out loud, for what is considered a progressive band they just imitate all the prog and metal that came before and it all sounds very mechanical, static and routine.
Yeah they know all about the odd time signatures and stuff but even with all the different chord and time changes their music still manages to come off as predictable and boring to me. Nothing seems to suit a purpose, it's just showing off and nothing more, contrary to popular belief that's not what prog is all about, a lot of good prog bands show off their skills but they still have a sense of melody and rhythm and group chemistry, there's a structure behind what they do and there's a desire to convey certain moods and "images" through their sounds. Most importantly these bands "jam" when they have an idea to jam with. With DT none of these things really matter, they just have some obligation to do the same thing with every song.
They're so formulaic and every album is the same thing, I wouldn't mind if it wasn't under the pretense of being "progressive" music. They're like a novelty band that only wants to satisfy the kinda people who think Nirvana destroyed good music or some stupid crap like that, they have the talent to explore new territory that nobody else could because they lack the chops but they choose not to. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 06:56
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DT are a very odd case for me. They're great players and they compose good music but something's just... missing. I think it's soul. I think they go into things *trying* too much instead of naturally feeling what they're doing.
Still, Octavarium is one of the great prog songs of the decade just gone.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 07:04
This is what put me off DT for along time. Despite their obvious technical prowess, it seemed that song writing had taken a back seat, to simply showing off. But, having explored some of their earlier stuff and having seen them live, I've learned to appreciate them for what they are. They are not particularly progressive or innovative, but they entertain and know how to create excitement. I think they write music in a way that they know will come to life in a live context. I'd happily part with money to go and see them any day of the week, although I'd probably think twice about buying any more of their albums. I've heard a bit from each era, and that's probably sufficient. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
boo boo wrote:Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 09:15
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Oh... again complaining about DT...
I know I'm in the minority here but I consider this album a lot better than Systematic Chaos. I know people find it "formulaic" if that can apply to an album of only six songs... but I think people expect too much of them.. they have succeed and is almost impossible to top their own limits... having I&W, Awake and Metropolis out there, is very tough to top it, but this album is good, is dark, it has everything....
Well, I don't agree with blacksword now, the fact that you feel like they are just showing off is missing the point. They don't need to do that... they are already proved everything... I don't see any showing off in songs like Wither or The Best of Times... even in The Count of Tuscany... I feel that people complain too much about DT... these thread happens to appear every two or three months with a different title... just enjoy the music guys... or well, dont... ------------- |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 10:01
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I've always been a fan of a certain period of Dream Theater - up to and including (just) 6 Degrees Of Inner Turbulence; to my mind, the triple live 'Scenes From New York' captured them at their best (even Labrie sounded pretty good), but the material I've heard from them in the last 5/6 years does, I agree, sound pretty much DT-by-numbers.
Whether or not this is down to Portnoy's influence/leadership is a moot point, but to my mind, nowadays they just sound like a clever heavy metal band to me. +++builds fireproof wall around PC+++ ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 12:28
I agree almost completely, except that I don't even bother much with the post-Awake output and I am guessing from that that I like Images...and Awake a lot more than you. "Clever heavy metal band" is very aptly put. They had tremendous potential at the time of Awake but have been middling by and large since then. |
Posted By: Nightshine
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 12:58
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Finally, some common sense on these boards. How about we just take DT off the archives for not being PROGRESSIVE? You know, this is supposed to be a PROGRESSIVE rock website, and thus there has to be some PROGRESSION within the music, because PROGRESS is what this genre was supposed to be about in the first place until the pretentious fanboys decided what "progressive rock" is. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 13:08
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And here I thought this thread was started to complain that Mike Portnoy's touring with Avenged Sevenfold for the remainder of 2010 was ruining Dream Theater. But lo and behold it is just another excuse for the haters to bash on Dream Theater. ------------- 
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Posted By: Nightshine
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 13:15
Let's just make it perfectly clear: There's no reason to really defend them anymore, and you and everyone else might as well just let people who hate Dream Theater hate on them like they rightfully deserve to be hated upon for being a bunch of sell outs. |
Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 13:15
Dream Theater ruined Dream Theater.  -------------  
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 13:19
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Seems as though Dream Theater have been sellouts since Images and Words since that was when they had their one and only hit.
Is it true that TROLLS only come out during the moonshine at night?
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Posted By: Nightshine
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 13:23
Wrong definition of "sellout". Try again there buddy. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 13:26
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Oh you meant the standing room only crowds at their live performances. -------------
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Posted By: Nightshine
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 13:26
Try again. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 13:28
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Please Mr. Genius why don't you use your wisdom beyond your youthful years to explain to an addleminded old man what you mean. -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 13:29
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Another arrogant punk here... Why why why... Why is prog so full of these people... ------------- 
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 13:31
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For my taste they have not released anything really good since Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. It's like they lost their inspiration.
I had expected that getting Jordan Rudess would turn them more to the prog side but obviously I was wrong. It's already too many album releases in which I think "come on, this next one is gotta be the really prog one", but it does not happen and on the contrary it only gets worse and worse.
It's funny because after "Falling into Infinity" they were so pissed off with Atlantic because it forced them to make more commercial music. They got freedom for Metropolis Pt2 and it was indeed a terrific album and their most prog and non-commercial (at that time), which seemed to mean that when given freedom, these guys would realease amazing prog music.
However, now that they have all the freedom they could wish for, they release more and more commercial albums, and less and less inspired.
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Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 13:50
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You mean a commercial album, like Black Clouds with 3 songs longer than most... and dark and heavy...? is that commercial...? does the people how buy the album the first week and rise it to the top6 of Billboard, do you think they buy it because of the single? or it was just loyal fans...? if it's a sin to be succesful eventhough they are not selling out.... there's a problem but with the audience, not with the band...
I know this album is not in the level of Images and Words, but it is still a lot better than most prog metal bands out there... whether you agree or not... the popularity of DT is growing... now, if you are so snob to believe that more audience is bad for bands... well... that's really... your problem... ------------- |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 13:50
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You mean a commercial album, like Black Clouds with 3 songs longer than most... and dark and heavy...? is that commercial...? does the people how buy the album the first week and rise it to the top6 of Billboard, do you think they buy it because of the single? or it was just loyal fans...? if it's a sin to be succesful eventhough they are not selling out.... there's a problem but with the audience, not with the band...
I know this album is not in the level of Images and Words, but it is still a lot better than most prog metal bands out there... whether you agree or not... the popularity of DT is growing... now, if you are so snob to believe that more audience is bad for bands... well... that's really... your problem... ------------- |
Posted By: Nightshine
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 13:53
.... Is this really your argument? You've got to be kidding me. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 14:01
And what is YOUR argument? Just saying "you've got to be kidding me"? Anyway, I love you little trolls.. They make the day more interesting. -------------
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 14:01
Just listen to Porcupine Tree and all of your problems will be solved.  -------------
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 14:02
I have no problem with popularity, I don't care one cent whether they sell 1000 copies or 10 million. I don't care about the lenght of the songs either, there are so many records I love in which there is no song longer than 5 min. What I am talking about is the music.
I'm just saying that the music they are making in their last albums is uninspired, it seems conciously and coldly constructed to please a certain audience. One song to please the Muse fans, one song to please the Metallica fans, one song to please the proggies, one song to please the Tool fans..... let's try to please them all !. But the result is cold and mechanical. For my taste. You are certainly entitled to like it.
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Posted By: Nightshine
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 14:03
Honesty is trolling now, guys! |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 14:07
Until now you are the only one worthy to answer to... so... let's see... if they want to explore different sounds like muse of Evanescence then they are stealing, if they do the same old 90's prog metal, then they are not proggressing...? can you please define yourself...? ------------- |
Posted By: Nightshine
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 14:09
If you make your influence blatantly obvious and act like you're tough sh*t while you do it, you're not progressing, you're regressing. End of discussion. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 14:11
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it depends on what you mean by 'ruin'. Portnoy certainly guides the band, and the other guys tend to just go with the flow, but Petrucci has just as much say in the songwriting process as Portnoy does, I can guarantee you. They both think that they are in a Metal band these days. They don't realize that what made them great was their initial ambition as a modern Prog Rock band with Metal linings. Those days are long over, it seems, and DT will most likely never be a Progressive band again. You can either accept that and enjoy what they are doing now, or you can consider them 'ruined' simply because they don't sound like they used to. I tend to be somewhere near the middle. I admit, I'm a fence-sitter when it comes to this band. The talent is clearly there, and their technical abilities ensure that they will never be halted in their playing style. They could make a Jazz record tomorrow if they wanted, and it would be technically sound. My issue with these guys right now is that despite all the potential, they seem to have lost whatever it was that drove them back in the beginning. Perhaps they don't even realize it themselves, but a lot of that 'magic' is gone. I think they just don't care as much about pushing new ground as they once did. They are happy playing their power metal and as long as people pay, they'll stay in that territory for awhile. Then again, I adore Octavarium, and that was only two albums ago, so perhaps there is still some hope. Clever rhythms and hard-to-play leads do not good music make. There has to be some heart behind it first, and for right now, these guys don't seem to have it. But again, there are plenty of bands who I think make boring music these days, and they don't have nearly as loyal a fan base as Dream Theater, so if they were truly 'ruined' as a band, the following wouldn't still be as strong as it is. Everything I just said was only my opinion, and clearly there are others who beg to differ. Ruined? No. Different? Yes, very. I don't necessarily like this new DT, but I'm still in the minority as of this point. The DT camp is stronger than ever, and their public exposure is also going to play a role in the direction they take, I'm sure.
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 14:20
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1. Mike Portnoy *is* Dream Theater. Ok, Petrucci also has some influence, but Mike is the boss. And I doubt he would ruin the band ... they made their mark, and if he takes them into a direction that I don't like, so what. 2. IMO Octavarium was the creative low point ... I liked Systematic Chaos (except for two songs) and I really like BC&SL. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 14:23
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How does it feel to be amongst us morons Mike? -------------
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 14:24
1. I already said Portnoy guides the band. But I've seen footage of he and Petrucci arguing over who's idea gets into the final product, and he is Co-Producer, so I know they are both just as involved during the creative process. That's all I said, and I'm sticking by that statement. 2. Your personal opinion on something won't sway me. BC&SL is Power Metal garbage. In my opinion.
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Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 14:24
| I've heard The Count of Tuscany. I thought it was good. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 14:25
| ^ BC&SL is certainly much better than SC. I still don't like it, but anything is better than what came before, in my opinion. |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 14:29
Until now you are the only one worthy to answer to... so... let's see... if they want to explore different sounds like Muse or Evanescence then they are stealing, if they do the same old 90's prog metal, then they are not proggressing...? can you please define yourself...? ------------- |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 14:37
You already posted this, and Nightshine already posted a response to it. 
See? |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 14:38
I have the two editions of their official Biography, so yes, I'm one of those hard fans... and it reveals a lot of insides. Mike is the boss... sure, but Petrucci is the partner, the difference is that John is a lot open to the ideas of Mike, and at the end, the interest and control freak of Mike is what has taken them to how succesful they are now... just like Mario Bros said above, if you like it or not, that's your problem... but they are not ruined, the fan base is there to show it... now, if they sell out someday, you can be sure their fanbase would be lost... but well....
I don't hear BC is power metal... The Best of Times is not power metal and The Count of Tuscany.. no... no lord.. ------------- |
Posted By: LiquidEternity
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 15:45
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This problem that plagues Dream Theater is more or less the exact one that is plaguing 97% of metal these days. Lots of fans and bands view metal as an end in itself. The heaviness. The fast drums. All that kind of stuff. Bands take old hits and perform "metal versions." And fans eat this up. I like metal plenty, don't get me wrong. But there is no reason to accuse Dream Theater of having a stagnant sound when all their peers are fairly motionless too. Opeth has moved around a bit, but in the grand scheme of things not much at all. Meshuggah has not yet written two songs that don't sound identical to each other and to the other parts of the songs. Pain of Salvation decided to drop the idea of metal in itself, and they have received gallons of hate and spite since (and I haven't even heard their latest one yet, but I understand it's not metal in the slightest). Symphony X is a joke of repetition, despite their talent and strong melodic hooks. Ayreon is historically samey throughout. The list goes on. And it's not a problem just for metal to stagnate, but it's a trend I've noticed. Maybe I've just gotten bored of the genre somewhat, but I am largely unimpressed with everything metal I hear these days. And whoever suggested Porcupine Tree as a solution for bands with flagging inspiration... clearly hasn't heard The Incident. Heck, even Devin Townsend, one of my favorite artists period, is fairly redundant from album to album. Nobody's all that exempt. So blaming Portnoy is kinda missing the point. I don't know why he brings out such hate in people. Really, I'm not that into Dream Theater's music any longer, but the man's attitude and interest in both his band and his fans is admirable. ------------- 
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 15:46
I will never complain that "if they do the same old 90's metal, then they are not progressing". I prefer a new album from a style I like than something totally new and groundbreaking which leaves me cold. I guess that even rap was "progressive" the first time it was ever made, but I can assure you that I would not have liked it even then.
I love I&W, Awake, A Change of Seasons, Metropolis Pt2 and Six Degrees (mostly disc 2), and several other assorted stuff. Octavarium (the song) and The Count of Tuscany are not bad songs but they are far from the masterpieces some people claim them to be. DT clearly "built" them skillfully and cleverly in order for their prog-oriented fans to consider them masterpieces, but they are not.
I would like to hear again stuff comparable to Under a Glass Moon, Learning to Live, 6:00, Erotomania, Overture 1928, Beyond this life, Home, About to crash, Loosing Time / Grand Finale etc.
But I do not mean simply "in that style". I mean "with that soul, originality and inspiration".
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 15:59
So, let me ask you ... people are not allowed to change and do their own music and art ... because a fan doesn't like it? Or thinks that Mike is running the show?
I think you have the wrong DT!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 16:19
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I would want to think that they are really doing the music they really want to do right now. Then if I like it more or less it's my problem.
But for some strange reason I have a feeling as if this was not the case, as if they are making the music in a very cerebral and studied way, intentionally built to please as much a wide spectrum of fans as possible within their existing fanbase and maybe trying to pick up a few new ones (that is, trying to range from real metal to prog to "modern-commercial metal" and everything in between, and if possible trying to have also a song that can work decently as a single), instead of letting their talents fly freely.
It's just an impression and I can be wrong.
Having said that, I admire Mike Portnoy for being such a hardworking musician (and amazing drummer, no question about that !)
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 16:21
*yawn*
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 16:34
I'm not really sure what people expect from them. They are a guitarist, bassist, keyboardist, drummer, and a vocalist. Yes, they snuck a violin or cello in on some of their earlier albums, but they aren't cello or violin players. Only so many sounds come out of those 4 instruments. (granted keyboards can come up with lots and lots of sounds ). I suppose that they tried to progress by adding growls  , and yes from that standpoint Portnoy is ruining Dream Theater.  I guess that I just don't get what Dream Theater is supposed to do to appeal to everyone. Sound like Henry Cow. News flash people they aren't Henry Cow. Should Labrie start singing and chanting in Kobaian. Would that make them more appealing? Really!!!! I seriously get that people don't like them but what I don't get is what you are truly expecting from them that would make them better for you. Should they play and sound like Meshuggah??? Blech!!! Or is it just a case of expecting them to come up with something that is totally new, innovative, and earth shattering that you don't even know what it is, but when it happens you will know it? -------------
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 16:47
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 16:49
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First off, I like The Incident. Second off, you will be hard press to find too many people in the forum that will agree with you on your assessment of The Incident. Most forum members seems to dislike The Incident as much, if not more than Black Clouds and Silver Linings. Shouldn't detract from your liking The Incident, but I am just saying. (Trust me I've seen enough snipes at both bands to last me a thousand lifetimes). -------------
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 17:02
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 17:12
Sure they are a metal band, and I do like them doing metal, I do not expect DT making a Supper's Ready. But the many covers they have played should give us a hint of what lays in their hearts together with their beloved metal: Kansas, Queen, Pink Floyd, The Dixie Dregs, Marillion, Rush... clearly they have (or had) a spot for classic prog too (to avoid misunderstandings I will repeat, surely not the prog in the style of early Genesis or Harmonium, but they liked good prog anyway), and yet they do not really show it in their own songs in their newest albums. Octavarium or The Count of Tuscany may be long songs, but that's not the point I am making.
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 17:12
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Dream Theater is still alive and well, and the genius of Mike Portnoy would never "ruin" DT. Just another DT bashing thread....  ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: LiquidEternity
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 17:14
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Whoa, settle down a wee bit. I was being ornery with the Incident comment. It's a fine album. Just compared to its predecessors, kinda lame. And in truth, that's kinda what Dream Theater is doing, too. Good albums, but ones that are less than those before them. Honestly, neither Dream Theater nor Porcupine Tree are particularly evolutionary or progressive. PT's moved through a few styles throughout the years, yes, but having seen the dark side of artists like Zappa make pretty much everything else look stagnant. And that might be my issue in and of itself. Frankly, the idea of looking for continued progression is a disheartening pipe dream. No band, at least not any band that lives past twenty years, really goes anywhere new on a consistent basis. You'll be hard-pressed to find a half dozen bands today that have significantly evolved and modified from release to release over four albums. And sorry, Jlocke. Not trying to be redundant about Meshuggah. I had three of theirs for a while before I just gave up and sold them. Unless you are really into rhythm or pure anger, there's not much to recommend the band. I'm not picking on an easy target, just a well-known one. The bands that sit at the forefront, the "popular prog" ones if you will, are by nature less radical and less innovative--though King Crimson could possibly be an exception. Most of them (Dream Theater, Genesis, Yes, Porcupine Tree, Pink Floyd, ELP, IQ, etc.) stick to one specific sound, with some evolution but little revolution. Is that bad? No. Just wondering if some of you are holding Dream Theater to a ridiculously higher standard (let's be honest, I am) than you hold other bands. The answer is simple: if you are looking for bands that constantly reinvent themselves, push boundaries, that kind of thing, don't go looking for today's or yesterday's most popular acts. Look for the no-namers, or at least less famous ones. Even among the prog world, the milk that can be easiest to agree on is the most popular. Of course, I don't expect anyone to care. At least my last post got some replies, which is refreshing. -------------
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 17:27
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Nothing to do with this thread but now that we are talking about DT: Can somebody enlighten me why in PA's discography of DT "A Change of Seasons" appears in the section of "Official singles, EP's, Fan Club & Promo".
I thought it was a normal album release? ok half of it are covers but so what?
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Posted By: LiquidEternity
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 17:29
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It's officially an EP.
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 17:29
It's more like this: I hear nothing BUT variety in Meshuggah's music, but the intricacy is so subtle at times that it's not always easy to detect. Unless you're willing to truly LISTEN to them, you're not gonna get it, but to say that they basically make the same song over and over again is not only 100% incorrect, it is also insulting to those of us who really like their music. Some people only listen to music for the melodic aspects, while others are really drawn to the rhythmic aspects. I like both, and Meshuggah is certainly NOT a melodic band, but the rhythms and all the subtleties involved in that ensure that they aren't repetitive, either. If you think they are, you're simply not listening. You're a good guy, and I mean nothing by this. Just some healthy debate.
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Posted By: LiquidEternity
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 17:37
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Yeah. Okay, I was harsh on them earlier. And admittedly, they are slightly fun to pick on. I owned Catch 33, Destroy Erase Improve, and I for around a year. Listened to them each a bunch. I liked a few parts of Catch 33. But basically I was just listening in the hopes that something would click, unlock in them. But they just felt like overly intentional rhythmic technicality and exaggerated anger, and neither of those are really me. I like some tech metal stuff, but that never worked. And honestly, when ObZen came out, I listened to some of their stuff that I could stream. It was nothing remotely surprising. What it seems to me that Meshuggah has done is find this little niche of music that they can do really well, and they're exploring it very carefully and creatively. Within the space of what they are, they are creative and evolutionary. But in the grand scheme of music... they are one thing and one thing only. They are just one of those bands that sound very static and dry unless you stare really closely at them for a long period of time. And maybe only if you're a drummer in the first place. -------------
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Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 17:43
Look dude... I know you mention it as a joke, so I honesty ignore the comment, but someone hit it again and just let me tell you that The Incident is a plain boring kind of conceptual album... I wonder why there's always someone talking good about PT in every single thread we have hear... we are talking about a Prog Metal band and you mention a space rock band...? I mean, if don't want that people pick up against PT, isn't better to stay to the focus of the discussion...? an Alternative Rock band with long arrangements, for me that's all about PT and there's nothing further... but I don't care and I won't bash them just because they are boring to me... just I won't mention them... I don't care... enough to say I don't care if Steven Wilson is ruin PT or not... is his band and he can do whatever he likes with it...
Portnoy is the same, and I as a fan have a lot of extra material thanks to him... he dedicates himself to give more to the fans... if you like it or not... is your problem...
and don't try to attack me because I don't like PT... just move on and stay to the focus of the thread... OK..? ------------- |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 17:54
it's incredible how a Newbie open a thread and everybody fall out with the same old DT discussion. -------------  |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 17:55
Hey Jampa17 i went away a couple of months and you have more post than i and are a brand new prog reviewer.
Congrat  ------------- |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 17:55
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OH... Albert... didn't see you in month... again... in a DT thread... how a surprise..!!!
Edit: thanks man... things changes with time and patience... nice to seeya man... ------------- |
Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 18:32
Long live Porcupine Tree! -------------
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Posted By: LiquidEternity
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 19:18
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You said something and people are discussing it. Why are you so upset?
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 19:59
I'm not upset.  -------------
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 20:00
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I just found it odd that they took it so seriously, that's all. -------------
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 20:29
Progressing is not just adding new sonic elements, you can explore a different compositional approach or simply delve deeper into territory you had recently covered (not the same thing as repeating the previous album at all!). As LiquidEternity points out, it can be rather hard in metal though because as he rightly said, metal fans see metal as an end (and yes, I am also getting tired of metal in general!  ). But I have not really got the sense of a band advancing as composers with later DT...it sounds more like they try out some things, watch the fans' reactions and then try something else if that doesn't work and so on. I don't really care if or if it is not progressive because that doesn't affect my liking much, but I certainly don't find it interesting. |
Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 20:42
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To be honest, I used to really like DT, but a got a few of their newer albums and I just didn't get it; well, I did get it, I just didn't like it much. I found Systematic Chaos's songs to be too long and drawn out. It left the songs as harsh music that couldn't easily be listened to before switching to the next track. I&W had a lot of flavor, though I don't care much for it now, that added replay value to those songs. I feel that what their doing now is just trying to sound darker (it comes through very artifically, though) and there's not enough substance to back it up, IMO. They need to let loose a little bit. -------------
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Posted By: LiquidEternity
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 21:12
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In defense of Dream Theater, they do not have growls in their new album. In fact, there originally were, and they sounded much better, but most of the rest of the band vetoed them as "too out-of-the-box for Dream Theater" and instead had Portnoy harshly speak the words. Or some crap like that. Personally, had they left the growls in, that section would sound much better. I'm not a big fan of growls, but sometimes they do just need to happen. Although I see them differently than most do. You all see a bunch of posers trying to please everyone... I see them as a band full of nerds who want to make music that makes them happy. The lack of innovation is a failure of creative imagination and talent on their part, not effort. -------------
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Posted By: javier0889
Date Posted: May 22 2010 at 00:57
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Mike Portnoy, John Petrucci, Steven Wilson et al are respectable 40yo men now. Let them do what they want. Plus, if you dislike their work, then make your own prog band and try to be better than them. It's that easy. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 22 2010 at 10:23
And how does an internet discussion 'stop' them from doing what they want? Are people not allowed to express anything but an unconditionally positive opinion on Dream Theater?
Irrelevant again, a listener is entitled to dislike a band's work and also entitled to say so. |
Posted By: LiquidEternity
Date Posted: May 22 2010 at 10:42
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And for the record, it's not that easy. I've tried writing the prog to end all prog, and it ends up coming out like half a layer in a Gentle Giant song.
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: May 22 2010 at 11:34
Did I ever claim that BC&SL was Power Metal? ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 22 2010 at 12:44
Steven Wilson is a notorious 70s prog buff but the difference between PT and Dream Theater is that the former actually embrace music that was made after 1986. They are not the most original prog band no, but they try something different with every album. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: May 22 2010 at 20:45
DT are just stuck crowding over stagnant 80s power metal. They really need to evolve in order to break their current musical barriers. Steven Wilson is always trying something new, and its always fresh to his fans...that's why he has so many. -------------
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Posted By: LiquidEternity
Date Posted: May 22 2010 at 20:54
Dream Theater has more. 
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Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: May 22 2010 at 21:14
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The thing with Dream Theater is what other people think of them. The fanboys are incredibly annoying. With their talk of 85643965279452 nps John Petrucci solos.
The haters are even more annoying because they all come off (for lack of a better word) close-minded. Dream Theater is my favourite band, but I can admit BCaSL was a slip down from their other things. Seriously though, the haters annoy me because Dream Theater can do whatever they want. I respect the fact that they do what they want and not what the fans want. It's their band, not yours. The only sort of case this is a problem is with 80s Yes and Genesis and other bands because they plain sold out to the radio companies and to mainstream. Dream Theater isn't selling out (thats just what all the trolls say), they're experimenting into new grounds. Falling Into Infinity was close to selling out, but they followed up with SFaM to assure us that they're still themselves. I'm not being a fanboy, I'm just using my brain. |
Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: May 22 2010 at 21:17
 Hmmm...
DT has also been around longer... -------------
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 01:56
Not really, PT just took much longer to work their way up, DT made a big splash with their second album. It's a Hobson's choice for me between most PT and later DT, neither particularly interest me. AND, DT are not playing 80s power metal of late, it's modern metal and elements of metalcore can be heard here and there too. I also think the fans take the sellout cries too literally. I think people are referring to an element of insincerity in the way the later albums have been written when they say this, sorta as if so long as they put in some hot licks in a few songs, the fans will be happy. Considering what a coherent impression I&W and Awake made by contrast, it's hard for me not to feel that that is the case. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 02:15
Posts like this annoy the hell out of me.
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 03:24
Usually it's the haters who keep bringing up that subject. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 06:45
I'm with you, ptkc123. I am a PT fan and a DT fan, but the latter has kind of creatively stagnated recently. I think the last great DT album was Octavarium. PT certainly try to do something different with every album, and Wilson as a songwriter is just in another league to Dream Theater. ------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 09:36
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DT are trying to capture the attention of the countless number of new metalcore fans... I think they should start focusing on the older ones to really gain some attention. -------------
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Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 10:12
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 10:23
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John Petrucci's good... he just needs to cool down a bit before he catches his fingers on fire. -------------
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Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 11:27
Who in the hell told you that DT is trying to capture those fans... just read and hear what Portnoy is always saying... all they want to do is please their fans... the fact of trying different sounds and influences is just because they don't want to get bored with what they already have made...
and you keep bringing out Steven Wilson in this conversation man... stop it...!!! Steven Wilson is not a comparisson for DT, he doesn't play prog rock... he has admited that he doesn't even want to play prog rock... and the people who likes PT is not searching for technical abilities... so, is a complete different thing... and technically, Wilson is a lame singer and as a guitar player, is, quite average... but, I don't care if he is or not... just leave him alone and talk about DT... OK...? ------------- |
Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 11:45
He's (Steve WIlson) admitted that he doesn't want to play prog rock in the sense of a Genesis or Yes or King Crimson sound-alikes, but he definitley embraces the term of "TRUE PROGRESSIVE ROCK," which is something Dream Theater doesn't know about. I believe that you need to rethink what the term progressive really is. And, extreme technicality has nothing to do with being a good progressive rock band. Steven knows patience and a little Frippian-idea called discipline... It basically means not playing 10000 note per second solos whenever you want just because you can... the music itself will tell you where to go... and Wilson is a much better singer and more tolerable than LaBrie, and I think that most people will agree on that.  -------------
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 11:47
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The more stabs you take at Wilson, the more I will defend him... so maybe you should stop bringing him up and I'll stop defending him and talk about Dream Theater. -------------
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 11:51
everything you just said doesnt matter because Steven Wilson (and PT) still do not really belong in this thread ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 11:57
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I know.. jampa17 brought them and him up again so I felt that I had to say something to correct what he was saying... -------------
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Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 12:55
First of all, Wilson being better than LaBrie is a matter of opinion.
And secondly, Dream Theater plays progressive METAL. Thats different from progressive rock. As said in an earlier comment, it's not your band. Stop trying to say just because they're progressive metal, they're not true progressive. |
Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 13:31
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I definitely didn't say that they're not progressive because they play progressive metal... Pain of Salvation is definitely progressive metal. I just, IMO, don't think Dream Theater currently are. It's my opinion.....sue me -------------
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Posted By: ferush
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 14:32
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¡¡¡ YEEEESSSSS !!!!! IT'S VERY URGENT ANYONE PUT PORTNOY IN HIS OWN PLACE BECAUSE HE'S GOING DOWN TO VULGAR MUSIC... DREAM THEATER IS LOSING ITS FINE STYLE.
¡¡¡ URGENT !!!!
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Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 14:46
Labrie is a opera trained singer... Wilson is a selfmade singer, and his range is quite short and the power of his voice is really weak... now, if you like him more that's a different story... most of the people who hates Labrie's voice agree that he is a good singer and has a good vocal range... the problem is that they just don´t like his voice... which is subjective...
and you are talking about how is the "correct" way to compose a song... can you compose a song...? are you a songwriter? how is that you can say what is "good" and bad in matter of music? I think Wilson also has accepted that DT musicians are quite good musicians... is just that he doesn't like their style... Portnoy admire Wilson work... so you see... that's a mature way of talking... not pretending that the true belongs to you...
and about composission skills... have you ever heard songs like To Live Forever, Through Her Eyes, Surrounded, Dissapear, Regression, Hollow Years, Anna Lee or Trial of Tears...? if there's billions of notes in his solos there... then you should check your ears buddy... and I'm mentioning songs from all eras of DT... ------------- |
Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 14:48
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When I heard Rite of Passage, I knew something bad was happening... -------------
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Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 14:54
An amazing comeback to the previous argument.
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 15:02
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jampa17: Wilson's a "quite average" guitar player? Have you heard "Way Out of Here?"... what about anything from Nil Recurring or Voyage 34... I personally believe Wilson is a much more tasteful guitarist than Petrucci... Petrucci should focus on feel and originality, not just technical virtuosity. I do very much respect him, though. -------------
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Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 15:46
While I admit Wilson is tasteful, his solos never really stand out to me.
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Posted By: LiquidEternity
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 15:50
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Wasn't it Fripp on Way Out of Here and Nil Recurring? Wilson's not bad. But if we're talking technical talent, the only person in all of PT that might have anything on any member of Dream Theater is Gavin Harrison. Truthfully, I am currently not too interested in either band, as to my ears, Porcupine Tree is now just playing progressive metal too, but bad prog metal. DT's been playing that game way better for a while. The Incident is just a bad merger of Tool and, well, more Tool. And it just sounds bad. -------------
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Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 21:02
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Why are we talking about bands that suck? This is Progressive Archives. We all know that prog music is the best music ever, and a recent study shows that Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree both sound objectively terrible. I mean, really. Sure, they might be going in the direction they want to go in. This isn't Direction Archives, people. We do not add a band here just because they have a direction. You know what band had a direction? Nirvana. You want to see them on this site? No. I didn't think so. You know who listens to Nirvana? Americans. You know who lives in America? The KKK. Yeah. That's right, I went there. You keep Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree on this site, and within two years this forum will be dominated by white supremicists plotting to overthrow the evils of tolerance and enlightenment. And then we get shut down and nobody's happy. So if you guys want to listen to bands that objectively suck, then fine. That's your decision. But don't drag this site down with you. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 21:07
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^ -------------
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Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: May 23 2010 at 21:10
This! |