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topographicbroadways 
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 Topic: Conceptual pieces, what makes a great epic?
Posted: May 20 2010 at 13:27 |
supper's ready, close to the edge, echoes, awaken...classic long tracks
what makes these great, in my oppinion keeping it simple is often what makes a great epic, echoes pink floyds epic doesnt feature 15/8 time signatures but has a constant feeling of emotion running through all 23 minutes and is one of my favourite prog pieces of all time.
close to the edge is a much more complex piece and is also a tru great it shows virtuoso playing and is one of the great prog pieces which i have always had love for
so what makes a prog epic for you concept emotion and musical structure or several movements of virtuoso playing?
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AerosolKid74
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 13:36 |
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You forgot Karn Evil and Tarkus some of the most fantastically complex music ever written, never a dull moment when Mr. Emmerson is about.
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topographicbroadways
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 13:42 |
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karn evil 9 is an amazing piece, tarkus is an amazing piece if you're in the mood, the extended time signature battles can be abit wearying at times even for a prog fan
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AerosolKid74
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 13:45 |
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That's true but as a keyboardist 12 minute keyboard solos in which Greg Lake could probably take a nap is very satisfying, maybe not so much for others
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friso
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 14:00 |
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A great epic seems to have random problematic structures at first spin and becomes a totally logic and understandable composition when listened to a couple of times (let's say eight times). It is a track on which you must have faith in the master-plan of the creator, for it takes away more elements of the normal pop-song (short length and standard design) whilst keeping to the conventional progressive removals (simple melody, likable atmosphere, etc.). It shows how advanced human perception of music can be and thus gives a rewarding feeling in the end or after the track is finished.
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topographicbroadways
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 14:04 |
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the gates of delirium is a great example of understandable complexity i have listened too this piece so many times that i know exactly what note steve howe is about too play all the way through
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friso
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 14:04 |
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Speaking about great epics... where are Plaque of the Lighthouse Keepers, Sun Symphonic, some Magma pieces, GG' Three Friends ending, Can's Bel Air and Focus' Eruption? And what about Palepoli?
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topographicbroadways
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 14:07 |
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i havnt listened too pawn hearts for a very long time so i dont really remember the piece itself but i do remember that i loved it first listen
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Easy Livin
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 16:06 |
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Note that the thread is not intended to seek recommedations of prog epics, it's asking what makes certain ones great.
Edited by Easy Livin - May 20 2010 at 16:06
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Epignosis
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 16:31 |
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For me, I like the revisiting of themes- not to the point of nausea, but something that unites the work. This is one reason Tales from Topographic Oceans features four brilliant epics and is my favorite album.
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topographicbroadways
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 16:34 |
 Epignosis wrote:
For me, I like the revisiting of themes- not to the point of nausea, but something that unites the work. This is one reason Tales from Topographic Oceans features four brilliant epics and is my favorite album.
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agreed i was just listening too that album a couple days ago and the recurring themes that unite those pieces keep the whole album excited, and also how they reprise themes from former albums (heart of the sunrise in the revealing, close to the edge in ritual etc.) and ritual is one of the most beautiful emotional finales ive ever encountered
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moshkito
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 16:48 |
topographicbroadways wrote:
supper's ready, close to the edge, echoes, awaken...classic long tracks ... |
The time. The place. The inspiration ... and it has nothing to do with much else.
To give you an idea how times change, look at the majority of stuff discussed here and people's tastes with some of the more modern stuff and thing. Too many of them just small cuts, or bands that can only do 5 minute cuts! And this is the reason why I can appreciate a Dream Theater ... not afraid to bomb out for 15 or 20 minutes, and that takes guts, determination, love of music and the desire to take it further than just a rock song!
It's really about the process that those people enjoyed playing with, that many of them LOST later. And in the case of Roger Waters, has actually trashed many of those things.
I was reading some stuff about CAN, and in the end, some of the processes that are used in other art scenes in Europe are far more interesting and artistic, specially because most of those bands in London got away from it simply because Melody Maker didn't like it! Even Ian Anderson got away from it and kinda made a gesture about it all with "Thick as a Brick" which really was his opinion about many folks thinking that "concept music" was important ... and then the next album he says ... "it's his own affair" ... when he is clearly stating that we should allow and make room for individual preferences when people are looking for their own way! (... vision or concept in this case!!!... )
CAN, even for things like Tago Mago, took a taped session that could have lasted 10 hours, and put together 25 minutes of it and called it "Augmn" ... or anything else. It's something that can only be done with musicians that are comfortable enough with their world of music to try and experiment and defy the laws and conventions of music, that the majority of the bands above stopped doing after a while when folks started criticizing it.
In the end, there is no such thing as "conceptual" pieces, although you and I could sit here and say "The Wall" is a conceptual story based on this and that. You can sit here and read the lyrics and then decide that it is trying to tell you this and that you should believe in that.... and that this is a concept about this and that ... and then you hear Magma do something for 25 minutes ... and you go ... where's the concept?
From an artistic point of view, it would make more sense to ask ... what was the inspiration for the long piece of music? The story? The music? The idea? ... but to "assume" that is is a concept could be totally wrong ... and CAN will tell you that because the idea of what they did was "anti-concept" and was intentional ... not conceptual, but when you hear it in its final design... we sense that there is a concept here ... and yes, there maybe one, and there may not be one ... but to call it an epic because of it? I suppose that we call an epic some big time operas and we should also call these works important and all that, but sometimes I have a real hard time accepting that specially when the very artist trashes it and looks back and says that ... it wasn't important and meant nothing, and it was one of the tools that taught the artist how to interpret his own music with lyrics!
Edited by moshkito - May 20 2010 at 17:38
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moshkito
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 16:50 |
topographicbroadways wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
For me, I like the revisiting of themes- not to the point of nausea, but something that unites the work. This is one reason Tales from Topographic Oceans features four brilliant epics and is my favorite album.
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agreed i was just listening too that album a couple days ago and the recurring themes that unite those pieces keep the whole album excited, and also how they reprise themes from former albums (heart of the sunrise in the revealing, close to the edge in ritual etc.) and ritual is one of the most beautiful emotional finales ive ever encountered |
And I second Ep's opinion on that TfTO
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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rod65
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 18:15 |
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I think it varies from artist to artist, and is, as Moshkito points out, very much a matter of process. Personally, I tend to enjoy unifying themes accompanied by interesting variations, and an overall sense that both my emotions and my intellect are being addressed, but not addressed with such a heavy hand that I am not free to wander inside the music--like Yes's early epics, for example, but not like the longer studio pieces on Keys to Ascension, which have always struck me as rather heavy-handed. The piece may or may not be narrative--if it is, fine, but if it isn't and the music is still solid, that's just as good IMO.
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Oliverum
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 16:41 |
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To me, a great epic is a song that progresses and grows in time. It is indeed very well put by rod65, that an epic song leaves the listener space to wander around in music. I guess an epic song should awaken the listener´s imagination and thereby broaden the experience from the music. Whether narrative in lyrics or not, it should be a journey through music. And after listening to it, you feel like you´ve arrived. Like ELP´s "Pirates" or DT´s "Octavarium".
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Gerinski
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 16:55 |
We should not forget that a significant part of the roots of prog was the idea of making music with a similar mentality as that of classical music but with the attitude and the musical resources of rock (and partly jazz).
The origin of prog's epics owes a lot to the classical symphonies, concertos, operas or suites. That is, ideas arranged in clusters (you may call them movements if you like) but which are in turn arranged in a higher layer (or more than one), forming a somehow consistent macro-structure. Recurring themes is only one of the tools or resources to achieve this macro-consistency, but there are others such as taking care that the dynamics along the complete theme form a logical flow such as "intro-crescendo-piano-pianissimo-forte-presto-presto vivace-climax-calm after the storm".
What I want to say is that for me it's the structure which has the biggest importance in defining a real great epic. You can just glue together a lot of music into a 30 min track, but if it lacks the overall logic behind it's not a real epic, it's just a long track.
But I agree with Kingfriso, this structure may many times not be apparent at the first listen, only after getting to know the piece you get to understand "the master plan of the creator".
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J-Man
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 17:02 |
Epignosis wrote:
For me, I like the revisiting of themes- not to the point of nausea, but something that unites the work. This is one reason Tales from Topographic Oceans features four brilliant epics and is my favorite album.
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Very true!  That's usually why I have a soft spot for conceptual albums as well.
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JerseyJoker
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 17:42 |
Well summed up, Gerinski.
You said it so well, no need to repeat it -- I agree with all you stated here (including your reference to Kingfriso's post).
The test for me is, can it absorb my attention completely -- to the point that I can get lost in it?
Yes's Close To The Edge, Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon, Genesis "Supper's Ready" and "The Lamb" as a whole -- all fit the bill here.
Karnevil 9 Parts 1-3 work, too, actually -- as someone else mentioned. And I'd throw Tull's "Thick As A Brick" and "Passion Play" in as well (I STILL don't know why "Passion Play" gets panned as much as it does -- I think it's brilliant").
Jon Anderson's "Olias of Sunhillow" and Chris Squire's "Fish Out Of Water", I think, are epic pieces.
Tales of Topographic Oceans is OK, but meanders a bit too much for me. This is where structure comes into play. But I do have an open mind about it -- maybe I ought to pull it out again and give it another spin.
Maybe I'M meandering a bit too much ... 
Peace out.
Edited by JerseyJoker - May 21 2010 at 17:55
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Klogg
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 18:04 |
In a Focus concert here in Goiânia, Leer has spoken some words before playing Eruption, for me was the definition of a long epic song: "It's a mix of diferent themes, that sometimes result in the expression of some emotions. These emotion vary depending on the person or the theme . Listen to eruption patiently and you will see"(not the exact words, and I can't remember all the speech  )
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Progosopher
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 18:29 |
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What makes an epic great, in my opinion, is a combination of the original concept and the exposition of that concept. Most songs of any length have some kind of concept to them, but "Baby I love you" is not much of an idea. So the concept underlying the epic has to be interesting. The exposition of the concept has to go beyond a simple melodic expression. It has to progress out from that point. The piece has to be developed both conceptually and musically, but if the original idea is not interesting, very little that is truly good can be developed from it. There is a difference between a short story and a novel - the latter is developed to a further extent. There is a difference between a song and a symphony - the latter again is developed to a further extent. A good epic is like a symphony. Note that a short story and a song can function quite well within the limits of their respective scopes. A good epic has to bring in a number of elements together: the concept, the lyrics, the music, the arrangements and instrumentation, and it all has to fit together as a unity to the extent that the piece could not be any (or much) shorter to be adequate. That's why some pieces of music are three minutes long and others are three hours.
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Conceptual pieces, what makes a great epic?
