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Conceptual pieces, what makes a great epic?

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Topic: Conceptual pieces, what makes a great epic?
Posted By: topographicbroadways
Subject: Conceptual pieces, what makes a great epic?
Date Posted: May 20 2010 at 13:27
supper's ready, close to the edge, echoes, awaken...classic long tracks 

what makes these great, in my oppinion keeping it simple is often what makes a great epic, echoes pink floyds epic doesnt feature 15/8 time signatures but has a constant feeling of emotion running through all 23 minutes and is one of my favourite prog pieces of all time. 

close to the edge is a much more complex piece and is also a tru great it shows virtuoso playing and is one of the great prog pieces which i have always had love for

so what makes a prog epic for you concept emotion and musical structure or several movements of virtuoso playing?






Replies:
Posted By: AerosolKid74
Date Posted: May 20 2010 at 13:36
You forgot Karn Evil and Tarkus some of the most fantastically complex music ever written, never a dull moment when Mr. Emmerson is about.


Posted By: topographicbroadways
Date Posted: May 20 2010 at 13:42
karn evil 9 is an amazing piece, tarkus is an amazing piece if you're in the mood, the extended time signature battles can be abit wearying at times even for a prog fan 


Posted By: AerosolKid74
Date Posted: May 20 2010 at 13:45
That's true but as a keyboardist 12 minute keyboard solos in which Greg Lake could probably take a nap is very satisfying, maybe not so much for others


Posted By: friso
Date Posted: May 20 2010 at 14:00
A great epic seems to have random problematic structures at first spin and becomes a totally logic and understandable composition when listened to a couple of times (let's say eight times). It is a track on which you must have faith in the master-plan of the creator, for it takes away more elements of the normal pop-song (short length and standard design) whilst keeping to the conventional progressive removals (simple melody, likable atmosphere, etc.). It shows how advanced human perception of music can be and thus gives a rewarding feeling in the end or after the track is finished.


Posted By: topographicbroadways
Date Posted: May 20 2010 at 14:04
the gates of delirium is a great example of understandable complexity i have listened too this piece so many times that i know exactly what note steve howe is about too play all the way through 


Posted By: friso
Date Posted: May 20 2010 at 14:04
Speaking about great epics... where are Plaque of the Lighthouse Keepers, Sun Symphonic, some Magma pieces, GG' Three Friends ending, Can's Bel Air and Focus' Eruption? And what about Palepoli?


Posted By: topographicbroadways
Date Posted: May 20 2010 at 14:07
i havnt listened too pawn hearts for a very long time so i dont really remember the piece itself but i do remember that i loved it first listen


Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: May 20 2010 at 16:06
Note that the thread is not intended to seek recommedations of prog epics, it's asking what makes certain ones great.


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: May 20 2010 at 16:31
For me, I like the revisiting of themes- not to the point of nausea, but something that unites the work.  This is one reason Tales from Topographic Oceans features four brilliant epics and is my favorite album.
 


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Posted By: topographicbroadways
Date Posted: May 20 2010 at 16:34
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

For me, I like the revisiting of themes- not to the point of nausea, but something that unites the work.  This is one reason Tales from Topographic Oceans features four brilliant epics and is my favorite album.
 

agreed i was just listening too that album a couple days ago and the recurring themes that unite those pieces keep the whole album excited, and also how they reprise themes from former albums (heart of the sunrise in the revealing, close to the edge in ritual etc.) and ritual is one of the most beautiful emotional finales ive ever encountered


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 20 2010 at 16:48
Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

supper's ready, close to the edge, echoes, awaken...classic long tracks  ...
 
The time. The place. The inspiration ... and it has nothing to do with much else.
 
To give you an idea how times change, look at the majority of stuff discussed here and people's tastes with some of the more modern stuff and thing. Too many of them just small cuts, or bands that can only do 5 minute cuts! And this is the reason why I can appreciate a Dream Theater ... not afraid to bomb out for 15 or 20 minutes, and that takes guts, determination, love of music and the desire to take it further than just a rock song!
 
It's really about the process that those people enjoyed playing with, that many of them LOST later. And in the case of Roger Waters, has actually trashed many of those things.
 
I was reading some stuff about CAN, and in the end, some of the processes that are used in other art scenes in Europe are far more interesting and artistic, specially because most of those bands in London got away from it simply because Melody Maker didn't like it! Even Ian Anderson got away from it and kinda made a gesture about it all with "Thick as a Brick" which really was his opinion about many folks thinking that "concept music"  was important ... and then the next album he says ... "it's his own affair" ... when he is clearly stating that we should allow and make room for individual preferences when people are looking for their own way! (... vision or concept in this case!!!... )
 
CAN, even for things like Tago Mago, took a taped session that could have lasted 10 hours, and put together 25 minutes of it and called it "Augmn" ... or anything else. It's something that can only be done with musicians that are comfortable enough with their world of music to try and experiment and defy the laws and conventions of music, that the majority of the bands above stopped doing after a while when folks started criticizing it.
 
In the end, there is no such thing as "conceptual" pieces, although you and I could sit here and say "The Wall" is a conceptual story based on this and that. You can sit here and read the lyrics and then decide that it is trying to tell you this and that you should believe in that.... and that this is a concept about this and that ... and then you hear Magma do something for 25 minutes ... and you go ... where's the concept?
 
From an artistic point of view, it would make more sense to ask ... what was the inspiration for the long piece of music? The story? The music? The idea? ... but to "assume" that is is a concept could be totally wrong ... and CAN will tell you that because the idea of what they did was "anti-concept" and was intentional ... not conceptual, but when you hear it in its final design... we sense that there is a concept here ... and yes, there maybe one, and there may not be one ... but to call it an epic because of it? I suppose that we call an epic some big time operas and we should also call these works important and all that, but sometimes I have a real hard time accepting that specially when the very artist trashes it and looks  back and says that ... it wasn't important and meant nothing, and it was one of the tools that taught the artist how to interpret his own music with lyrics!


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 20 2010 at 16:50
Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

For me, I like the revisiting of themes- not to the point of nausea, but something that unites the work.  This is one reason Tales from Topographic Oceans features four brilliant epics and is my favorite album.
 

agreed i was just listening too that album a couple days ago and the recurring themes that unite those pieces keep the whole album excited, and also how they reprise themes from former albums (heart of the sunrise in the revealing, close to the edge in ritual etc.) and ritual is one of the most beautiful emotional finales ive ever encountered
 
And I second Ep's opinion on that TfTO


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: rod65
Date Posted: May 20 2010 at 18:15
I think it varies from artist to artist, and is, as Moshkito points out, very much a matter of process. Personally, I tend to enjoy unifying themes accompanied by interesting variations, and an overall sense that both my emotions and my intellect are being addressed, but not addressed with such a heavy hand that I am not free to wander inside the music--like Yes's early epics, for example, but not like the longer studio pieces on Keys to Ascension, which have always struck me as rather heavy-handed. The piece may or may not be narrative--if it is, fine, but if it isn't and the music is still solid, that's just as good IMO.


Posted By: Oliverum
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 16:41
To me, a great epic is a song that progresses and grows in time. It is indeed very well put by rod65, that an epic song leaves the listener space to wander around in music. I guess an epic song should awaken the listener´s imagination and thereby broaden the experience from the music. Whether narrative in lyrics or not, it should be a journey through music. And after listening to it, you feel like you´ve arrived. Like ELP´s "Pirates" or DT´s "Octavarium".


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 16:55
We should not forget that a significant part of the roots of prog was the idea of making music with a similar mentality as that of classical music but with the attitude and the musical resources of rock (and partly jazz).
 
The origin of prog's epics owes a lot to the classical symphonies, concertos, operas or suites. That is, ideas arranged in clusters (you may call them movements if you like) but which are in turn arranged in a higher layer (or more than one), forming a somehow consistent macro-structure. Recurring themes is only one of the tools or resources to achieve this macro-consistency, but there are others such as taking care that the dynamics along the complete theme form a logical flow such as "intro-crescendo-piano-pianissimo-forte-presto-presto vivace-climax-calm after the storm".
 
What I want to say is that for me it's the structure which has the biggest importance in defining a real great epic. You can just glue together a lot of music into a 30 min track, but if it lacks the overall logic behind it's not a real epic, it's just a long track.
 
But I agree with Kingfriso, this structure may many times not be apparent at the first listen, only after getting to know the piece you get to understand "the master plan of the creator".


Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 17:02
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

For me, I like the revisiting of themes- not to the point of nausea, but something that unites the work.  This is one reason Tales from Topographic Oceans features four brilliant epics and is my favorite album.
 


Very true! Clap That's usually why I have a soft spot for conceptual albums as well.


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Posted By: JerseyJoker
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 17:42
Well summed up, Gerinski.
 
You said it so well, no need to repeat it -- I agree with all you stated here (including your reference to Kingfriso's post).
 
The test for me is, can it absorb my attention completely -- to the point that I can get lost in it?
 
Yes's Close To The Edge, Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon, Genesis "Supper's Ready" and "The Lamb" as a whole -- all fit the bill here.
Karnevil 9 Parts 1-3 work, too, actually -- as someone else mentioned.  And I'd throw Tull's "Thick As A Brick" and "Passion Play" in as well (I STILL don't know why "Passion Play" gets panned as much as it does -- I think it's brilliant").
 
Jon Anderson's "Olias of Sunhillow" and Chris Squire's "Fish Out Of Water", I think, are epic pieces.
Tales of Topographic Oceans is OK, but meanders a bit too much for me.  This is where structure comes into play.  But I do have an open mind about it -- maybe I ought to pull it out again and give it another spin.
 
Maybe I'M meandering a bit too much ...    Tongue
 
Peace out.
 
 


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Gary ~~

... People are always tempted to wipe their feet on anything with "Welcome" written on it ...


Posted By: Klogg
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 18:04
In a Focus concert here in Goiânia, Leer has spoken some words before playing Eruption, for me was the definition of a long epic song: "It's a mix of diferent themes, that sometimes result in the expression of some emotions. These emotion vary depending on the person or the theme . Listen to eruption patiently and you will see"(not the exact words, and I can't remember all the speech Tongue)


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 18:29
What makes an epic great, in my opinion, is a combination of the original concept and the exposition of that concept.  Most songs of any length have some kind of concept to them, but "Baby I love you" is not much of an idea.  So the concept underlying the epic has to be interesting.  The exposition of the concept has to go beyond a simple melodic expression.  It has to progress out from that point.  The piece has to be developed both conceptually and musically, but if the original idea is not interesting, very little that is truly good can be developed from it.  There is a difference between a short story and a novel - the latter is developed to a further extent.  There is a difference between a song and a symphony - the latter again is developed to a further extent.  A good epic is like a symphony.  Note that a short story and a song can function quite well within the limits of their respective scopes.  A good epic has to bring in a number of elements together: the concept, the lyrics, the music, the arrangements and instrumentation, and it all has to fit together as a unity to the extent that the piece could not be any (or much) shorter to be adequate.  That's why some pieces of music are three minutes long and others are three hours.

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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: Falx
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 20:30
The same things that make a great restaurant meal: a great introduction that whets your appetite, a meaty middle that satisfies your cravings, and a rich finale that leaves you giddy with pleasure and sends a shiver down your spine whenever you look back on it. And like all great restaurants you keep going back for more. Music is food for the soul: you can have a snack, or you can sit down to a nine-course banquet.

=F=


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"You must go beyond the limit of the limit of your limits!" - Mr. Doctor
"It is our duty as men and women to proceed as though the limits of our abilities do not exist." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin


Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: May 22 2010 at 09:01
Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

echoes pink floyds epic doesnt feature 15/8 time signatures but has a constant feeling of emotion running through all 23 minutes and is one of my favourite prog pieces of all time. 


Lots of interesting thoughts in this thread about the STRUCTURE of epics, but surely "greatness" is only guaranteed if the music really moves the listener. That's why I'd call "Echoes" a great epic, but not "Atomheart Mother" which is a valuable experiment but not much more. Same with "The Revealing Science of God". What is it really about? I just couldn't tell you, we all know about Jon Anderson's penchant for gibberish, but pure emotion speaks through the singing and the playing: surely that's what makes this piece (with all its recurring motifs) truly great!


Posted By: sirfragalot86
Date Posted: May 22 2010 at 21:47
For me what makes good epic is something that is unique the whole way through. I think an epic should go through changes all throughout the song without losing the original focus of the song. It also has to have emotions to it, I need to feel like the reason and point behind this song. 


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 00:54
Originally posted by Falx Falx wrote:

The same things that make a great restaurant meal: a great introduction that whets your appetite, a meaty middle that satisfies your cravings, and a rich finale that leaves you giddy with pleasure and sends a shiver down your spine whenever you look back on it. And like all great restaurants you keep going back for more. Music is food for the soul: you can have a snack, or you can sit down to a nine-course banquet.

=F=
Nice metaphor!  Clap

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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 04:26
How about desert? LOL


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 26 2010 at 19:16
Originally posted by Oliverum Oliverum wrote:

To me, a great epic is a song that progresses and grows in time. It is indeed very well put by rod65, that an epic song leaves the listener space to wander around in music. I guess an epic song should awaken the listener´s imagination and thereby broaden the experience from the music. Whether narrative in lyrics or not, it should be a journey through music. And after listening to it, you feel like you´ve arrived. Like ELP´s "Pirates" or DT´s "Octavarium".
 
I so ... love this.
 
And you know how I talk about the music with such passion! I "live" inside that music ... not around it!


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 26 2010 at 19:30
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

... What I want to say is that for me it's the structure which has the biggest importance in defining a real great epic. You can just glue together a lot of music into a 30 min track, but if it lacks the overall logic behind it's not a real epic, it's just a long track....
 
In general this has merit and is the classical definition of "music" ... it ends up having a structure of some sort.
 
The concern I have is this ... the idea is "after the fact" and who is to say that Stravinsky did not do pretty much the same thing that CAN did in Tago Mago ... cut and paste ... cut and paste ... and develop a completely new ... "something" ... that we now might consider a "concept" or "idea". (Can being the best visible example of this, btw).
 
An "idea", or "concept" usually takes away the freedom to ... add/change ... something into something else, and is the very basic'est process in experimentation and improvisation ... to learn what else can be done and where does it go, and where can we take it. And therefore, this is the main reason why I don't really like formulaic music ... it doesn't take me anywhere that I have not been to before, whereas the unpredictable one that took a left turn in Albuquerque and ended up in Mars ... and you and I went ... WOW! ... far out!
 
An "epic" is a term that is coined after the fact ... and usually means that we are associating it with something that we might have known before that was big, or bigger than us (or life) ... that is still appreciated today -- let's say ... and while the idea is nice, the folks themselves that created might not think of it as Epic at all ... we don't look at Meatloaf's opus as Epic, and it is ... we don't look at In a Gadda Da Vida as Epic and it is ... we don't look the Marylin Memorial Church thing as Epic and it is ... we don't look at Ode to Perfume as Epic and it is ... which means we're being choosy! ... and that is NOT epic at all!  And sometimes things were done specifically to dismantle the definition! ... ie CAN.


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Nakatira
Date Posted: May 27 2010 at 04:51
For me many factors play a part in liking an album, perhaps even more when it comes to a concept album.
But very few albums are as rewarding as a good concept album.
 
For me the best concept album is Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick, it has that magical flow, Passion play is a great album but misses that flow IMO.
There are lots of other great ones but imo they dont match TAAB.


Posted By: caravan9
Date Posted: May 27 2010 at 17:59
As a new member I would suggest listening to many the of greatest bands in the long history of progressive music. Banco del Mutuo Soccorso, Arti Mesteiri especially Furio Chircio on drums, PFM, Return to Forever's "Romantic Warrior", Talk Talks "the Color of Spring", Joseph Bonner "Impressions of Copenhagen", Split Enz "Time and Tide", "Mental Notes", Paul Winter "Icarus", (acoustic brilliance), Renaissance "Novella", Curved Air "Second Album",  Note: I saw them open for Tull in 1972, Monkmans "Piece of Mind" is a great constructed piece of music. 3 curtain calls in Baltimore. The only problem I have with so called prog heads is that they seem to be stuck in neutral with comments like the "best ever concept album" ex: Yes, Pink Floyd, etc. In the 70's I witnessed  virtually every progressive rock, jazz fusion, band that appeared in the Baltimore, Washington region. My final thoughts consist of dismissing metal prog as pedestrian songwriting , screeching vocals,power chords and pounding drum kits being played every hour of the day on classic rock stations.


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 27 2010 at 23:45
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

... What I want to say is that for me it's the structure which has the biggest importance in defining a real great epic. You can just glue together a lot of music into a 30 min track, but if it lacks the overall logic behind it's not a real epic, it's just a long track....
  
The concern I have is this ... the idea is "after the fact" and who is to say that Stravinsky did not do pretty much the same thing that CAN did in Tago Mago ... cut and paste ... cut and paste ... and develop a completely new ... "something" ... that we now might consider a "concept" or "idea". (Can being the best visible example of this, btw).
I agree with this but I do not see it necessarily as contradictory with the statements regarding structure.
Such "structure" can indeed deliberately follow pre-defined formalism, but not necessarily.
This is the wonder of brilliant artists, they may just improvise out of inspiration and miraculously the end result somehow happens to have its own meaning and consistency, structure may have just emerged by itself.


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 27 2010 at 23:51
Maybe this is a wrong perception caused by the literary origin of the term "epic", but I have a feeling that certain atmospheres are necessary as well for a musical theme to be considered an epic.
It should convey some sense of adventure, or journey, sound mythical, majestic... I don't know.
Mike Oldfield's Amarok is 60 minutes long and yet I do not perceive it as an epic. Do you?


Posted By: Falx
Date Posted: May 28 2010 at 00:12
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Maybe this is a wrong perception caused by the literary origin of the term "epic", but I have a feeling that certain atmospheres are necessary as well for a musical theme to be considered an epic.
It should convey some sense of adventure, or journey, sound mythical, majestic... I don't know.
Mike Oldfield's Amarok is 60 minutes long and yet I do not perceive it as an epic. Do you?


MAGMAAAAA! Big smile


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"You must go beyond the limit of the limit of your limits!" - Mr. Doctor
"It is our duty as men and women to proceed as though the limits of our abilities do not exist." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin


Posted By: rod65
Date Posted: May 28 2010 at 00:24
The term "epic" is a little problematic. I hate to say this as it traps me in a logical contradiction: I love prog epics but cannot actually define them. I agree with Moshkito that the term tends to be an after-the-fact imposition, and might add that as such, it says more about the listener than it does about the musician. I also am with Gerinski in concern over possible mix-ups where literary and musical definitions of "epic" are concerned. I do think mood is important, and broadly speaking this is the case with literary epics as well. One of the main impressions I get from reading epics both ancient and medieval is the sense that the ideas concerned are bigger than any individual involved in either the production or the reception of the text. I think that this is also the case, ideally, with prog epics: they are big not just in terms of length but also in terms of content. This is the case as well, I think, with the classical symphonies that stand behind the prog epics: the composers are dealing with ideas that, at least in the moment of composition, transcend their own mere individuality. Listen to Beethoven's 9th or Shostakovich's 7th to get what I mean here. This is not to say that they cannot appeal to our individuality. Experience--individual experience and history--are inalienable from our experience of art--but I think a good epic provides us with an experience that is at once universally human and intensely particular.

"I never wanted this: left alive and laid to rest." - IQ: "The Narrow Margin." The epic from Subterranea.


Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: May 28 2010 at 01:05
Originally posted by kingfriso kingfriso wrote:

Speaking about great epics... where are Plaque of the Lighthouse Keepers, Sun Symphonic, some Magma pieces, GG' Three Friends ending, Can's Bel Air and Focus' Eruption? And what about Palepoli?
This!
 
You cant forget such classics
 
there is a thread about this somewhere with  the all time great epics
 
 
thats the best place to go


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Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: May 28 2010 at 01:49
Originally posted by Falx Falx wrote:

The same things that make a great restaurant meal: a great introduction that whets your appetite, a meaty middle that satisfies your cravings, and a rich finale that leaves you giddy with pleasure and sends a shiver down your spine whenever you look back on it. And like all great restaurants you keep going back for more. Music is food for the soul: you can have a snack, or you can sit down to a nine-course banquet.

=F=

Man that's an awesome analogy

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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: May 28 2010 at 03:17
My Review for Magma happens to be my favourite
 

http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=3306 - MEKANÏK DESTRUKTÏW KOMMANDÖH

http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=646 - Magma

 

Zeuhl


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http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=20315 -   http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=20315 - AtomicCrimsonRush
Prog Reviewer
Symphonic Team
5 stars Innovation, diversity, originality, intensity, dynamic hyper-music, Kobaian language... This is Magma!

Preheat the oven to moderate jazz, rinse the jazz in tribal chants and drain well, combine the mixture with some operatic vocalisations, and stir in a made up Teutonic alien language based on Orff's 'O Fortuna' from "Carmina Burana" over medium heat until completely immersed into the mixture, this will become Kobaian when it is thickened, then cover over with sporadic drumming and virtuoso musicianship, place in oven and cook until the cheese has melted through, any watery radio commercialism must be fully drained out, to serve, spoon the extra flavour of RIO and Krautrock, then top with slices of avant garde and a dollop of Wagnerian Opera, serve immediately. Enjoy your plate of Zeuhl.

My expedition into the murky Zeuhl territory began with Magma's live album that I half noticed in a specialist store. I was slightly disappointed at first as I hoped it would be accessible enough to enjoy. However, somehow the music has the effect of osmosis, it grows on you gradually creeping through your system transporting its gradient effect into your consciousness. The input of energy on this album, the ferociously original approach is astonishing. Nothing can be compared to Magma. 'Mekanïk Destruktïw Kommandöh' is hailed as a Magmasterpiece and for good reason. It broke down barriers of genre creating its own. Jazz infused rock opera would be one way to describe it but it is not sufficient as the language takes this to a different level. The otherworldly language of Kobaian is alienating but somehow appropriate. The iconic symbol emblazened on their shirts and albums is another aspect that seals the mythological essence of the group. An iconography creates that mystique that is so essential to the group.

The room goes dark as soon as you put this on and it is definitely not for the faint hearted. My family heard some of this and were more concerned than fascinated so I have been confined to earphone listening ever since. It is made for headphones too. Nightmarish music to immerse yourself in, with a disturbing edge could appropriately describe this music, although it may have the curious effect of being a source of uplifting encouragement to certain listeners. The tracks run together in a seamless epic. Depending on your mood at the time may depend on your overall impression; let the music take you into which ever direction it decides as personal interpretation is essential in the Magmaverse. The musicianship is tight as a drum and Vander is stunning on drums and vocals, his second instrument, he seems to be the face of Magma, the voice of Magma and the sound of Magma. On track one for example we have a lot of trumpets and a shimmering Hammond sound, I am not sure what it is but we hear chimes, jingles and happy organ. The guitar is very unusual as a background instrument, but the staccato hammering organ is a dominant force. There is a definite beat though it is sporadic.

The vocals are an absolute delight and you will hear Gregorian chanting, choral yelling, high octave shrills and deep resonances. You can even hear words that you think you recognise but it is all an illusion. On the first track for example it sounds like 'he pulls his pants off, he is seen at congress, he's fubar he's fubar, he's all tone deaf, he's a dunce.' Honestly it is that weird it is often hilarious. But the vocals are sung and chanted with such utter conviction it is quite chilling at times. Of special note are the high pitched soprano screeches, which are part of the sound on every album. Vocalists Stella Vander and her estranged husband are the centrifugal force of this album.

The vocals are very in your face and impossible to ignore sounding familiar at times, in track 1, Hortz Fur Dëhn Stekëhn West, I swear those females are singing: 'play a sony, play a sony, play a sony, play a sony please for the loon, please sing a song, please play a record. '

The voices are even weirder on track 2, Ïma Sürï Dondaï, and sound like 'We musn't raid our fire, we musn't raid our pools, please!' Then later, 'I never see, I never win, I never see I won won won,' then the females answer, 'baby the lotion, baby the lotion, baby the lotion...' there are huge sections of woodwind that is all over the place, jazzy and dislocated from any one time sig. The low bass is keeping some semblance of rhythm but it is as fractured as it can get. This is mesmirising.

The complexities of the polyrhythmic time signatures are intense, and at times the music takes surprising detours, such as track 3, Kobaïa Is De Hündïn, with sustained atonal chord progressions and tribal drumming metrical patterns. The piano is a real feature on this too and I particularly like that relentless droning sound that becomes almost subliminal but is everpresent. The female vocals caress the sound with strange words 'manamanamana, oooooooooh oooooooooooooh oooooooooooooh.' They gradually build to a crescendo until the beat breaks into a German sounding chant: soundslike 'Oz is dark for those who dare'.

The next section on track 4, Da Zeuhl Wortz Mekanïk, is very memorable as I heard this on the live album, the female chant is overpowering: 'Is he single for he's so hot.' The repetition is entrancing. This is my favourite track on 'MDK'. There are staccato stabs that darken the sound and these are contrasted by very light passages of minimalist strings. At one point the females sound like they are going into a painful frenzy.

Track 5, Nebëhr Gudahtt, settles into an ambient guitar and piano minimalist passage, there are no words for a time until Vander decides to mutter some unintelligible mumbo jumbo. A soprano gives out disturbing bird calls, the contrast of light and shade are astonishing. Beauty and the Beast. The vocals become screechy and tortured, screams of terror and a repetitious mantra of female choir voices. This is the dark nature of Magma and could send many music listeners running for cover. The section at five minutes in I must admit is chilling to the bone, some of the scariest music you will hear. Though I guarantee a lot of listeners will find this hilarious as it is so over the top. The Vanders scream until their throat is red raw.

Then it merges seamlessly into track 6, the fan favourite, Mekanïk Kommandöh. The females sing sounding like: 'He's superman, He's superman, He's superman'. I love the staccato Hammond crashes on this and it speeds up the tempo with imperfect timing. There is a guitar solo! The voices are fuller with male and females in full voice chanting out Kobaian: 'Ai! Ai! Ai! Komissioner pummels my eye, Ai! Ai! Komissioner pummels my eye, Ai! Ai! Komissioner pummels my eye...' This is another definitive highlight track that stands out.

Track 7, Kreühn Köhrmahn Iss De Hündïn, ends this album with a slow somber but majestic ascending operatic piece. The choir sound like: 'Soon it's very very soon'. The drums are fantastic on this, very tribal and layered with woodwind effects. It is anti-music atonal jazz, the ear simply resists this and the way Vander groans and shrieks is unsettling. It ends on a high pitched piercing beep. Wow, we got through it.

Vander is the sole writer and it is good that he can secrete his creative juices on this otherwise he may well be locked in an asylum somewhere. I am reminded of Henry Cow at times and even King Crimson or Zappa or The Residents, but Magma stand alone and proud as their own entity. There is extreme repetition which may turn many off but this is hypnotic and compelling. It is soul stirring stuff and wraps itself around your cerebral cortex until you are addicted. The only thing left to say is once experienced, never forgotten. Magma have opened up a whole new realm of music. Try the delicious recipe for yourself and you may well enjoy the taste.

 


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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 28 2010 at 15:43
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

It should convey some sense of adventure, or journey, sound mythical, majestic... I don't know.  Mike Oldfield's Amarok is 60 minutes long and yet I do not perceive it as an epic. Do you? 
 
Are you kidding me?
 
It's his best and most fun work! And the most experimental of them all and creative.
 
With one exception ... because we can't find a "concept" or "order" of things in the music ... we can't call it Epic ... and it is Epic and a heck of a fun trip! Unffortunately it is something for trippers and not prog listeners! I said once (I'm a bad boy!) that someone wouldn't know "prog" if it hit them in the face! Or someone told them!
 
So, subtract the terms, and just sit once and listen to it from start to end. And notice that the convulsions that you are having is the fault of your comparisons to other things that you like. Now subtract that part ... what have you got left?
 
Yeah!


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 28 2010 at 15:58
Originally posted by progkidjoel progkidjoel wrote:

Originally posted by Falx Falx wrote:

The same things that make a great restaurant meal: a great introduction that whets your appetite, a meaty middle that satisfies your cravings, and a rich finale that leaves you giddy with pleasure and sends a shiver down your spine whenever you look back on it. And like all great restaurants you keep going back for more. Music is food for the soul: you can have a snack, or you can sit down to a nine-course banquet. =F= 

Man that's an awesome analogy
 
It is ... and I was going to extend this some ... it's like this .. so you get it on with your significant other and last night you both had ... a lot of fun ... and it was epic! And it lasted all night and is the reason why you think of it as "epic" ... and then someone else had the same experience and it lasted 15 minutes and both people fell in love all over again. So this one is not epic?
 
It's a serious issue, the definition of the term.
 
From the classical references be they literature, music or any art ... El Greco, for example is Epic when you see that thing 10/15 feet tall in Chicago. But another El Greco that is just 2 feet by 2 feet might not be considered epic because of its size!
 
In general, I do not use such terms when describing music or literature or art. I try to stay with my feelings inside and I can word them fairly well. The main concern being that someone does a 20 minute piece and simply because an organ explodes with a guitar solo over it does not mean that is is "epic" any more than you and I describing it. It also doesn't mean that El Greco in Chicago is "epic" because that thing is huge and it blasts you! (I can't even remember if it is El Greco or not all of a sudden - Chicago Art Institute).
 
I do, however, a lot, associate "progressive music" with the arts a lot more than most folks here. And I do so on purpose. Why? ... because some of these works are as good if not better than a lot of things that we consider "epic" in the history of music. And while not all of them are one person composing, the combination, still, is something very special, and this is what made history in music for thousands of years and this is the new year in that history ... that simple! And it doesn't matter to me if the band or group of folks is from Podunk, North Dakota, or Italy, or London ... if it has the strength to stand up and play and be who they are ... it is already "epic" ... and that is a lot more value to the artist than the cohort kissing of the famous that goes on in many places! And that includes Yes, Genesis, KC, ELP and many others!


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: May 28 2010 at 16:19
Many interesting things in this post.
 
Echoes, Atom Heart Mother, Nine Feet underground, Lady Fantasy, Ashes are Burning, Sheherazade. They have something in common: the various different part have no solution of continuity. They fade one into the other preserving the concept (or just the mood in those instrumental only). All those epic can be listened to more than one time without getting bored. Last, all of them have important bass sections in their middle: the blues section of Echoes, the funky section on Atom, the solo on the live version of Ashes are burning, the part when the bass doubles the drums tempo on Nine feet underground.... think to this. Note that I include Lady Fantasy into the epics, even if 14 minutes only.
 
Amarok is more similar to Krautrock. Think to Edgar Froese's Aqua. It's a long track but not an epic. Most of TD stuff is like that. Oldfield's stuff in general lacks of continuity. Tubular bells itself is a patchwork of songs.
 
 


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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: May 28 2010 at 16:21
....and long life to MagmaThumbs Up

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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 29 2010 at 03:29
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

It should convey some sense of adventure, or journey, sound mythical, majestic... I don't know.  Mike Oldfield's Amarok is 60 minutes long and yet I do not perceive it as an epic. Do you? 
 
Are you kidding me?
 
It's his best and most fun work! And the most experimental of them all and creative.
I love Amarok !
I just said that I don't perceive it as an Epic.  But it's a great album. Sure enough I like so many things other than Epics and Amarok is but one of them.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 29 2010 at 03:47
For me epic's need to have a sense of drama: (tension and release) that affects me on an emotional level, which is why constructing one by numbers or formula doesn't always work and why overly long can be an epic fail. PFM had that knack of creating short epics. Daniel Gildenlöw (Pain Of Salvation) can create big epics by writing short connected mini epics (typified by the triptic-structured albums)

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