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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13627
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 15:11 |
Absolutely no offence from the dark Western corner of Wales, and I love PF site as well. NOW will you improve my trust status .....Just joking. You are a valued member of this community and I tend to find that people who do give rise to genuine offence here on a regular basis get very short shrift, and quite rightly to.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 16913
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 15:55 |
Not at all, Mike. Nor Chris. Stick around, bud.
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 16:05 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ this clearly depends on how you define "God". If you're talking about the "Einsteinian" god, then I certainly won't disagree.
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no, I am not talking about the Einsteinian God. but I am also not talking of "God the wandweaver" who can let just anything happen. I think of the world not as a combination of matter and energy. for me the world is a gigantic process, maed of myriad of subprocesses which interact with each other. and the sum of all these processes is "God". the question is: does this God have a consciousness? to answer that we first have to answer where consciousness comes from, something which is still a total mystery to scientists. all we know is that human beings appear to have one; at least every human being believes him/herself to have one and by inference that other human beings also do. but what exactly IS this consciousness? one thing is for certain: it is a highly complex, self-referential process. now I propose that any process of a certain level of complexity and self-refference will develop a consciousness. at least some processes do; human beings are living proof of that. and the most complex and self-reflective process in the world is of course the Cosmic Process (a word I use instead of "universe", since for me everything is a process). my proposal is that this process has a consciousness too, and this consciousness I call "God". some may argue that this is quite a leap of faith, but I don't agree. on the contrary, I think it is nothing but the last recess of anthropocentrism to believe that our consciousnesses are the only conscious processes in the world. I see no reason why consciousness should be confined to living beings only. why, the definition of what "life" actually is may as well have to be changed as our knowledge extends
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 16:18 |
BaldJean wrote:
the question is: does this God have a consciousness? to answer that we first have to answer where consciousness comes from, something which is still a total mystery to scientists. all we know is that human beings appear to have one; at least every human being believes him/herself to have one and by inference that other human beings also do. but what exactly IS this consciousness? one thing is for certain: it is a highly complex, self-referential process.
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___________
As for offense Mike, none taken here, unless I should be offended about being "pigeonholed" with regard to my beliefs, but so what- it happens...I was appreciative for an opportunity to explain myself. Overall, I have thoroughly enjoyed our discussions.
I should also point out that there's a big difference between being offensive and being a dick. You aren't the latter, Mike.
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zappaholic
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 24 2006
Location: flyover country
Status: Offline
Points: 2822
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 20:27 |
Offensensitivity.
(thank you, Mr. Breathed)
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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 22:00 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ no, just referring to the increased knee jerk reactions lately.
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well... obviously I took exception to that one post you made.. and yes... reacted strongly. The man is very sick... and getting medical treatment and care by experts.. not internet jockies... I thought the dietary advice, and Ian's quoted post, were crass and pointed it out. This is unfortunately not the first time we have had members reach out to us... for support and/or as friends in very bad times. My reaction wasn't against you personally as much for the OP. who posted here looking for support and prayer.. not advice... I singled you out.. in my warped way of thinking ... not to be an a****le to you or Ian... but to show him that people care about him. not sure if you understand... but that is the way I think and see things in this paricular case. Nothing personal to you.... I'd have done it for you.. and would expect you and others to do the same for me. If I'm in a bad way.. I want your help and support... not unsoliticed advice
Edited by micky - April 01 2010 at 22:06
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 23:14 |
^ yeah, that would make no sense. We need more babies to replace the people who just died, not fewer!
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 23:26 |
thellama73 wrote:
^ yeah, that would make no sense. We need more babies to replace the people who just died, not fewer!
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^ Yep, but it should be noted that the author of the post espousing manly 'caps lock' atheism represents an argument for birth control so compelling that not even the most senior catholic clergy would demur.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 23:27 |
Offended...No
Annoyed...Some times.
In some ocasions specally in the Atheis6t thread you treated theists almost as not worth to be lostened that deserve no respect, you called us delusional, ignorants, fanatics, etc.
While the theists and most atheists showed respect fopr other person's belief's and doisbelief's, you clearly stated that our beliefs deserved no respect.
You may say you received harsh replies, but you seem to have some sick pleasure in causing them, people told they respected your disbelief, you replied I don't respect your beliefs,...After this, you can expect any reply.
Believe me, I know you and you can't offend me, but I understand why some people more religious than me may be offended.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 01 2010 at 23:32
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: April 02 2010 at 01:21 |
micky wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ no, just referring to the increased knee jerk reactions lately.
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well... obviously I took exception to that one post you made.. and yes... reacted strongly.
The man is very sick... and getting medical treatment and care by experts.. not internet jockies... I thought the dietary advice, and Ian's quoted post, were crass and pointed it out. This is unfortunately not the first time we have had members reach out to us... for support and/or as friends in very bad times. My reaction wasn't against you personally as much for the OP. who posted here looking for support and prayer.. not advice... I singled you out.. in my warped way of thinking ... not to be an a****le to you or Ian... but to show him that people care about him.
not sure if you understand... but that is the way I think and see things in this paricular case. Nothing personal to you.... I'd have done it for you.. and would expect you and others to do the same for me. If I'm in a bad way.. I want your help and support... not unsoliticed advice
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I know what you mean, but in that situation I simply could not walk by and not make this information available to him - I felt morally obligated to make this post. I already said that it was probably a mistake to mention the word "pray" in that situation, because it automatically triggered a defensive reaction from the religious people ("he says he doesn't pray" -> "he criticizes prayer"). Posting that advice is my form of caring for him.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: April 02 2010 at 01:28 |
BaldJean wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ this clearly depends on how you define "God". If you're talking about the "Einsteinian" god, then I certainly won't disagree.
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no, I am not talking about the Einsteinian God. but I am also not talking of "God the wandweaver" who can let just anything happen. I think of the world not as a combination of matter and energy. for me the world is a gigantic process, maed of myriad of subprocesses which interact with each other. and the sum of all these processes is "God". the question is: does this God have a consciousness? to answer that we first have to answer where consciousness comes from, something which is still a total mystery to scientists. all we know is that human beings appear to have one; at least every human being believes him/herself to have one and by inference that other human beings also do. but what exactly IS this consciousness? one thing is for certain: it is a highly complex, self-referential process. now I propose that any process of a certain level of complexity and self-refference will develop a consciousness. at least some processes do; human beings are living proof of that. and the most complex and self-reflective process in the world is of course the Cosmic Process (a word I use instead of "universe", since for me everything is a process). my proposal is that this process has a consciousness too, and this consciousness I call "God". some may argue that this is quite a leap of faith, but I don't agree. on the contrary, I think it is nothing but the last recess of anthropocentrism to believe that our consciousnesses are the only conscious processes in the world. I see no reason why consciousness should be confined to living beings only. why, the definition of what "life" actually is may as well have to be changed as our knowledge extends
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If it's not a leap of faith, then you should be able to prove it. Does this cosmic consciousness interfere with what we know as the laws of physics? Sorry if I'm not intrigued by your theories ... I think that there's a chance that you're right, but it's much too small for me to even begin to investigate. Take only the bold part: It's a non issue. You can't prove your theory. I can't disprove it. But why should I even try? Whether your theory is true or not has absolutely no bearing on my life.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: April 02 2010 at 01:43 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Offended...No
Annoyed...Some times.
In some ocasions specally in the Atheis6t thread you treated theists almost as not worth to be lostened that deserve no respect, you called us delusional, ignorants, fanatics, etc.
While the theists and most atheists showed respect fopr other person's belief's and doisbelief's, you clearly stated that our beliefs deserved no respect.
You may say you received harsh replies, but you seem to have some sick pleasure in causing them, people told they respected your disbelief, you replied I don't respect your beliefs,...After this, you can expect any reply.
Believe me, I know you and you can't offend me, but I understand why some people more religious than me may be offended.
Iván |
I try to be reasonable. I also try to be respectful of persons - but I can have no respect for unreasonable theories. It's interesting though how religious people can sometimes take personal offense when you criticize the concept they believe in. I really don't think that religion deserves any respect. If you are a true believer and at the same time you believe in concepts like freedom of speech and freedom of religion, you should simply not care about what I think about the Pope or Jesus.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: April 02 2010 at 01:54 |
Erm.. Mike, there is a possibility, albeit remote, that you may end up having to start another thread apologising to anyone offended by your posts in this thread which was originally created to establish if you had offended anyone prior to now ? ooops....I think I've just disappeared up my own bottom again BTW You have never offended me but you are one helluva stubborn critter
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65266
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Posted: April 02 2010 at 02:03 |
^ yup, just like most of us (just check that healthcare thread, ouch)
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
I know what you mean, but in that situation I simply could not walk by and not make this information available to him - I felt morally obligated to make this post. I already said that it was probably a mistake to mention the word "pray" in that situation, because it automatically triggered a defensive reaction from the religious people
Posting that advice is my form of caring for him.
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And I think this is what is misunderstood. You have a painfully rational mind, Mike, that's just how it is, and it's what makes you both a huge asset and a challenge
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: April 02 2010 at 02:05 |
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: April 02 2010 at 02:21 |
And after reading all the other reason's for offenses, can I just qualify that I was only referring to PF as a resource. Did not know about all the religious meanderings.......... painfully rational mind did I see someone above say
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
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Posted: April 02 2010 at 11:56 |
Keep the abuse flowing. Bring it on baby!!!
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: April 02 2010 at 12:01 |
Everyone should know God Is An Astronaut.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: April 02 2010 at 12:20 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
I try to be reasonable. I also try to be respectful of persons - but I can have no respect for unreasonable theories. It's interesting though how religious people can sometimes take personal offense when you criticize the concept they believe in. I really don't think that religion deserves any respect. If you are a true believer and at the same time you believe in concepts like freedom of speech and freedom of religion, you should simply not care about what I think about the Pope or Jesus.
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Mike,you called us:
- Ignorants
- Delusional
- Fanatics
- Many more strong ephitets
Do you believe this is trying to be respectful with the peope?
Honestly, I don't care what you believe about us, but there is some mutual respect you must keep, you ask if you offended somebody, I reply not me...But I'm sure you offended many.
Iván
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: April 02 2010 at 12:58 |
^ If you can't distinguish between persons and belief systems then my posts will always appear to be (personally) offensive to you ... and I'm not going to change my approach. Please note that I didn't create this poll to apologize or to ask for forgiveness for any perceived offense ... I'm merely asking whether some people were offended.
BTW: I was doing some hiking today with some friends ... after we had lunch we discussed dieting, and one of them ridiculed my low-carb dieting. I wasn't offended at all, I joined in the laughter. I think that sometimes it's much more important to be able to take criticism, than to try to be politically correct.
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