A Curious Phenomenon

I don't think I ever really stopped listening to prog since I was about I dunno, 15 or so, now stopped listening to ze non prog.
As a former PMT member I know how Teo feels about the prog metal bashing.
It's true that I prefer a lot of prog metal to say, Gentle Giant, or VdGG or Magma, as much as some might think that's blasphemy.
For the non metal side of prog, I'm more of a post rock and math rock guy than I am the more "traditional"  prog genres and again, post rock and math rock get some flack around here.

I think ultimately I don't think too deeply into whether  stuff is prog or not anymore really.
There was a time when I thought about it more and cared more, but nowadays I'm generally too busy and have more responsibilities now that I'm 21 so I can't really sit here on the internet for hours debating the merits of prog or whatever.

I have not noticed many prog nazis here, but maybe that's because I wasn't browsing the forum in 2006...but I haven't noticed many prog nazis anywhere on the net...especially compared to say metal nazis.  I think this has been addressed before in discussions...that prog is just a music form and one whose definition is amorphous and boundaries practically non existent, while something like metal is a cult which people identify with and therefore may get more possessive about, natural tendency.  Likewise, I have not seen much exhorting to listen to other genres of music here..maybe you peeps should seriously spend time in metal forums to get a different perspective.  I have, yes, seen a bit of this "X artist is better than prog" business which seems like a natural reaction to the sometimes dismissive reaction to bands/artists who may have made good music but are not prog.  I remember the guffaws when ABBA was suggested by someone...yes, they should not be suggested for a prog database, no question, but...have you, like, REALLY heard Intermezzo No.1? One is not more justifiable than the other...besides, it's the internet, it's par for the course, this forum is by and large disciplined and civil, so I don't see the problem. I have noticed that most people tend to pay attention only to topics on prog music/artists which is natural and fair enough because it IS a prog forum...though it looks a bit weird when say the Stevie Wonder thread that Pessimist started struggles to get many posts...really, only so few people here are interested in the work of a very celebrated artist? I am not finding fault, please, just expressing surprise, maybe I expected something different that I shouldn't have. 

So..in a nutshell, I am not sure what the problem is.

Henry Plainview wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: Then the person either loses interest in music or discovers that there's more to music than innovation ... like substance and emotion. I wasn't aware the two were in opposition to each other. And how exactly does one define "substance"?

Yeah sorry Mike, but I find the idea of innovation and emotion to be opposing forces to be a ridiculous concept too.
I don't think ANYONE would listen to music just because it's "innovative".
Frank Zappa may have been quite an innovative artist but I find half of the music he composed to be utterly boring.

On the other hand, I find Kayo Dot's Choirs of the Eye album, which was quite innovative for it's time, to be incredibly engaging and it has NOTHING to do with its inherent innovation and all to do with the fact that well......I just like it


Edited by Petrovsk Mizinski - February 22 2010 at 00:59

stonebeard wrote: I've always thought prog sucked. I'm an incredibly long-term and patient troll here.

A troll doesn't "think"... a troll "knows"

Raff wrote: First of all, I apologize if this thread sounds in any way confrontational, because it is not meant to be. However, I cannot deny that in the past few months I have noticed a curious phenomenon spreading around the site - people who seize every opportunity to put down prog, to stress how much they like to listen to other kinds of music (as if the rest of us didn't), or how boring prog is, and so on. And I am not talking about occasional visitors, but people who have been around for quite a long time. While in a way this could be considered as the inevitable consequence of the (equally, if not more) irritating attitude of many members, expressed in the many "woe is me - everyone hates Prog!" threads that ever so often rear their ugly heads, I have to wonder at why someone who is not particularly interested in prog keeps on visiting a prog forum. Possibly to make us see the error of our ways? Useless, at least in my case, because I am a very open-minded person, and listen to many different genres of music - and then, I know all too well how much really bad prog there is around (I have shelves full of CDs I wish I had never heard before, though at least I didn't have to pay for them). Or is it a form of masochism, or rather love turning to hatred?

I think I know why this irritates you Raff: They stoop to conquer

I think most Prog lacks attitude and genuine aggression because it tends towards the abstract. I can see why people might get tired with that and move on. As we see with John Lydon (Rotten) some people can like complex music but express themselves better through the visceral beats of simple rock and roll. Prog isn't the be all and end all, far from it, but at a Prog Rock site it is the prime focus and shared experience. If people feel the need to knock that then they should move on.

Tony R wrote: I think most Prog lacks attitude and genuine aggression because it tends towards the abstract. I can see why people might get tired with that and move on. As we see with John Lydon (Rotten) some people can like complex music but express themselves better through the visceral beats of simple rock and roll. Prog isn't the be all and end all, far from it, but at a Prog Rock site it is the prime focus and shared experience. If people feel the need to knock that then they should move on.

Thanks, Tony, you summed up the meaning of my initial post in the best possible way. And please note one thing: I know very well that some people come here because they like hanging around with other people they've met over the years, even if the music is not that relevant to them anymore. However, they don't necessarily feel the need to knock prog, or constantly state that something else is much better.

On a personal level, my own take is that, thanks to this site, I've realized that 'prog' is a much broader phenomenon than the bands I grew up with in the Seventies, and covers such vastly different kinds of music that it is unlikely to ever bore me. 

TODDLER wrote: Man Overboard wrote: Tony R wrote: I think most Prog lacks attitude and genuine aggression because it tends towards the abstract. I can see why people might get tired with that and move on. As we see with John Lydon (Rotten) some people can like complex music but express themselves better through the visceral beats of simple rock and roll. Prog isn't the be all and end all, far from it, but at a Prog Rock site it is the prime focus and shared experience. If people feel the need to knock that then they should move on. Well put. But how can it be the prime focus and shared experience with everyone anyway? There is too much commercial prog on this site. Especially the late 70's and 80's mainstream prog which is about a hundred degree angle in the opposite direction of the mainstream prog of the mid 70's which even at that time the art was dead. What about 90125 BY yES?  Do you actually consider that a prog album? It contains radio hits just like Duke did. Is this true prog or artificial top 40 prog?

Why should it matter? If two or more people on this forum can find something they like and if there are hundreds of such connections then it becomes the prime focus and the experience is shared. Surely that is enough... we don't all have to like the same thing as long as we all like something.

Henry Plainview wrote: I wasn't aware the two were in opposition to each other. And how exactly does one define "substance"?

Like, you know, like...
(and stuff)


Edited by Slartibartfast - February 22 2010 at 13:07

Well here's my screed.

It's a given that LTIA is probably the best album ever made.  Don't argue with me.  Second is probably Galactic Zoo Dossier.  Don't argue with me.  Those are the standard that any album must meet.  That said, I am a sucker for 99 Luftballoons and a thousand other crappy pop songs.  I would never denigrate prog...except maybe or especially Genesis and Dream Theater.  But we all have varied musical loves...many of which, whether prog or not, bring us to our knees and make us weep with either joy or sadness.  Why else would we even frequent this site?  I'm still trying to get over that YouTube of Knopfer's Brothers In Arms that someone posted.  I played it for my daughter last night and am still recovering.  I'm still trying to get over Easy Money, thirty years later.

A guy I used to work with just died of brain cancer.  Thirty five years old.  I've already outlived him by 20 years, and yet he left two young daughters.  I'm rambling, I told you this was a screed. At these times I'm not listening to 99 Luftballoons.  I'm listening to Echoes, or Starless, or some other epic piece that confirms and validates our lives.  In a more upbeat time, well I'll be listening to Double Shot of My Baby's Love. 

Think of the Bell Curve.  Imagine that bottom or top nth percentile (don't know if we're in the top or bottom, I like to think the top).  I'd say anyone who posts anything here, other than the odd troll, does actually care about music.  But some of us, well music is a bit more.  We care so much that at times it actually hurts and grinds at the soul.  I'm an old fart.  I grew up listening to well-crafted music.  AllMusic has a nice thing on 1965 on their home page now.  I was 'round 12 years old in '65, and I look at the songs, and in many cases listen to them once again, and am stunned at how good I had it as a kid.

So yeah, I may lob the odd grenade at ELP or Yes, or reject this or that band, but I care.  I don't off the top of my head remember, but there was a character in Pynchon's V, who said it all..."Keep cool, but care."