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Raff 
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 Topic: A Curious Phenomenon
Posted: February 21 2010 at 11:22 |
First of all, I apologize if this thread sounds in any way confrontational, because it is not meant to be. However, I cannot deny that in the past few months I have noticed a curious phenomenon spreading around the site - people who seize every opportunity to put down prog, to stress how much they like to listen to other kinds of music (as if the rest of us didn't), or how boring prog is, and so on. And I am not talking about occasional visitors, but people who have been around for quite a long time. While in a way this could be considered as the inevitable consequence of the (equally, if not more) irritating attitude of many members, expressed in the many "woe is me - everyone hates Prog!" threads that ever so often rear their ugly heads  , I have to wonder at why someone who is not particularly interested in prog keeps on visiting a prog forum. Possibly to make us see the error of our ways? Useless, at least in my case, because I am a very open-minded person, and listen to many different genres of music - and then, I know all too well how much really bad prog there is around (I have shelves full of CDs I wish I had never heard before, though at least I didn't have to pay for them  ). Or is it a form of masochism, or rather love turning to hatred?
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lucas
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 11:30 |
Spare the rod and spoil the child ?
Edited by lucas - February 21 2010 at 11:31
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Rune2000
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 11:34 |
I agree with this trend but don't see any harm done. Personally I've been listening to more progressive music in the last few month than what I've done in the two previous years which can probably explain my high activity lately. 
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LinusW
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 11:39 |
I wouldn't say people put down prog all that much, but there is definitely something going on. People distance themselves in some ways, to all genres. For me that's a reaction to a wave of "open-mindedness fascism" (heh), that means you have nothing to say unless you are extremely eclectic in your taste. Naturally, this is generalization and my interpretation, but it feels that way. Not just here, but just about everywhere! It's a climate where you can't truly be open-minded and still prefer prog and all things prog first and foremost due to taste alone. Call it neo-elitism if you will.
I think that's at least part of it.
But there's a positive side to it as well. Distancing yourself can be a very effective way to look at things in another way and something that can lead to new discoveries and facilitate a less trench-warfare look on music.
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lucas
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 11:45 |
 LinusW wrote:
But there's a positive side to it as well. Distancing yourself can be a very effective way to look at things in another way and something that can lead to new discoveries and facilitate a less trench-warfare look on music. |
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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bsms810
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 11:52 |
Yes i see what you are getting at Raff, and i agree that a lot of ppl seize the opportunity to stress how varied their music taste is... but didnt you also do that yourself in your second paragraph? 
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'when was the last time you had a girlfriend?'
'I dont look at it as when, I look at it as who...and why' - David Brent
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The Hemulen
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 11:53 |
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Hmm... I haven't seen much evidence of this myself, but maybe I'm not looking in the right threads. I certainly haven't indulged in any prog-bashing round here of late (at least, not consciously), but I have posted once or twice about my changing attitudes towards prog-snobbery. Indeed, the quote in my sig was chosen to reinforce that. When I look back at some of the stuff I said on this site a few years ago when I was still in my teens I truly shudder. I could be a right little Prog-Nazi at times and it got me nowhere.
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Raff
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 12:03 |
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Just let me make one thing clear: I dislike Prog-Nazis, as I dislike any kind of fundamentalism (political, religious or otherwise), and I also believe the attitude I have pointed out in my original post is mostly a reaction to those people who believe prog is the only music worth listening to. However, looking at some threads (especially those in the General Music section), you cannot help notice people stressing how much X (insert music genre, band or artist, and so on and so forth) is much better than prog IN GENERAL (i.e. not bad prog, or a particular subgenre one happens to dislike).
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lucas
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 12:06 |
Trouserpress wrote:
Hmm... I haven't seen much evidence of this myself, but maybe I'm not looking in the right threads. I certainly haven't indulged in any prog-bashing round here of late (at least, not consciously), but I have posted once or twice about my changing attitudes towards prog-snobbery. Indeed, the quote in my sig was chosen to reinforce that. When I look back at some of the stuff I said on this site a few years ago when I was still in my teens I truly shudder. I could be a right little Prog-Nazi at times and it got me nowhere.
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and you probably know that the guy you cite in your sig doesn't even regard his band as progressive, rather "psychedelic pop" if memory serves well.
When I went to prog, I was very delighted with all new discoveries, but now looking back to all the bands I discovered, I realize very few of the bands I discovered are REALLY original or at least "listenable". I even think there is a lot more to enjoy in the "alternative" rock (of which many bands are in PA)...
I don't know, but the more I listen to progo-prog bands (I don't include the technical death metal, technical thrash, electro-jazz bands like squarepusher, art-pop, jazz-rock, stoner, math-rock, mathcore...and all not 100% prog bands) the less I like them. I still like the giants of prog (including Dream Theater) but there is too much clones among their followers, or bands wanting to sound like them.
Edited by lucas - February 21 2010 at 12:09
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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The Hemulen
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 12:06 |
Raff wrote:
Just let me make one thing clear: I dislike Prog-Nazis, as I dislike any kind of fundamentalism (political, religious or otherwise), and I also believe the attitude I have pointed out in my original post is mostly a reaction to those people who believe prog is the only music worth listening to. However, looking at some threads (especially those in the General Music section), you cannot help notice people stressing how much X (insert music genre, band or artist, and so on and so forth) is much better than prog IN GENERAL (i.e. not bad prog, or a particular subgenre one happens to dislike).
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Really? I can't say I've encountered those kinds of opinions much in the General Music section. But like I say, maybe I'm reading the wrong threads...
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The Hemulen
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 12:10 |
lucas wrote:
[and you probably know that the guy you cite in your sig doesn't even regard his band as progressive, rather "psychedelic pop" if memory serves well.
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Indeed. Can't remember where, but in a radio interview once when pushed on the matter of Cardiacs' genre he just said "It's pop music. It's guitars and drums and singing. It's pop music." (I'm paraphrasing here, but it was along those lines). I think the point he's making there is that musical classifications might be of some use to the listeners but are often entirely spurious and unnecessary for musicians.
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TODDLER
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 12:17 |
Raff wrote:
First of all, I apologize if this thread sounds in any way confrontational, because it is not meant to be. However, I cannot deny that in the past few months I have noticed a curious phenomenon spreading around the site - people who seize every opportunity to put down prog, to stress how much they like to listen to other kinds of music (as if the rest of us didn't), or how boring prog is, and so on. And I am not talking about occasional visitors, but people who have been around for quite a long time.
While in a way this could be considered as the inevitable consequence of the (equally, if not more) irritating attitude of many members, expressed in the many "woe is me - everyone hates Prog!" threads that ever so often rear their ugly heads, I have to wonder at why someone who is not particularly interested in prog keeps on visiting a prog forum. Possibly to make us see the error of our ways? Useless, at least in my case, because I am a very open-minded person, and listen to many different genres of music - and then, I know all too well how much really bad prog there is around (I have shelves full of CDs I wish I had never heard before, though at least I didn't have to pay for them). Or is it a form of masochism, or rather love turning to hatred?
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This apparently is an issue that concerns you and I can understand how it would effect various individuals. Maybe some people feel........."Oh well, here goes this guy again trying to bring everyone one down with him". What kind of prog site is this anyway? The fact is there is to much emphasis put on people like Jon Anderson when it boils down to the representation of what progressive music is all about. You might think........Well, I just won't reply to those particular threads however, what a fan of progressive music wants to hear people discuss doesn't seem to be all that present on any progressive rock website.
There are more topics on Yes and their choice of a new singer from You Tube than a band like Pulasr. You have members from different generations. Because I heard Jon Anderson back in 1970, I have a different perspective on his meaning and purpose to prog school. My frustrations regarding a thread such as this, are as follows........Why would a person like Jon Anderson work with Paul Green's school of rock? There is way too much analogy of rock music applied in that school. It's very insulting to me. Things just happened in rock naturally and now that it is being observed with over indulgent modern concepts, I have no respect for the conversation. It is pathetic to me that Jon Anderson worked with students of Paul Green's school of rock. It's the wheel chair situation again. It's very pathetic that Jon Anderson had to resort to measures like asking his guru if he should be working with Paul Green's school of rock. Even though his spiritual guru suggested to him that it would not be in his best interest (in so many words), to do so, don't you as a person find something very annoying and un-intelligent about the whole affair?
When students of Green's school appeared on the Woodstock now and then special, and discussed the fight between Pete Townsend and Abbie Hoffman, one kid stated "Wow! .......Woodstock was all about peace and love but this was really cool because someone was going to die. What the H is up with that? That seems like a contrived attitude that derives from today's way of thinking.
It's more of the subject matter that is constantly being posted on this site that annoys me than the prog music causing me to feel jaded. Also, the terms like Proto-prog are ridiculous. These particular kinds of bands were mixing progressive elements into their music back in the late 60's and even early 70's. People that grew in my generation did not perceive it like a sport event. Yes, Genesis, King Crimson and various other usual suspects are consistently discussed and bands like Pulsar, Ange, Jade Warrior, Stomu Yamashta, Omega, and many, many others are hardly mentioned let alone posting a thread on them. You can locate amazing reviews of great interest on these bands that are included on the P.A. website which is very positive. But, I would love to know how many prog fans enjoy the same Omega titles that I do. I would also enjoy hearing criticisim about the band for educational purposes but, it is rare since I've become a member that I would see this evidence. I found it very unusual that Guru, Guru appreciation thread was posted recently and the Popol Vuh. I find myself replying to threads that I hate but, attempt to render something positive. The choice of thread music topics should be split in half.....50-50.....all the way down. It is maybe due to a generation gap or lack of interest. Some people just don't get it! It's not all about one band or even just 100 percent prog. It is a crossover at times into other genres. It is love turned into hatred due to the way progressive rock is perceived by an abundance of different generations that post threads on the current activity of Yes, Genesis and various others. Certain doors are open and too many others are closed. I always thought that education was to think for yourself? Why do I get the impression that concept is not applied enough?
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Easy Livin
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 12:42 |
Given the breadth of the discussion here, and the fact that it relates to prog vs. other genres, I think this thread sits better in the general music discussions. 
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Queen By-Tor
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 13:03 |
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I'm pretty sure I'm one of the "people who have been around for quite a long time" type people mentioned in this statement, and my only defense is that it's kind of a defense mechanism for the uber-prog-nazis (I won't name names here), the people who firmly believe that any music made after 1989 is terrible. I don't think that there are any bands that are better than the entire prog subgenre (in my opinion, anyways) because I am a prog fan, and if Rush is my favorite band, well then there isn't anything to top that.
Sorry if the defense mechanism has changed into "auto-fire" mode, but for a long time when I used to visit this site on an addict level I often found that I felt BAD listening to anything that was not prog - and now that I've been listening to nothing BUT that kind of music perhaps I feel bad that some people will never let themselves think that it CAN be good.
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Logan
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 13:06 |
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In part it's a reaction to people who claim that Prog is the best music, and those who put down other styles of music. I like a lot of music deemed Prog and dislike a lot of music deemed Prog (there's such wide variety under the Prog umbrella). I do not consider it inherently superior (from an academic standpoint) to other forms of music such as classical and jazz or many other forms, yet there are those who seem to think that Prog is THE music for intellectuals. As with most, I enjoy many expressions of progressive rock as well as many other kinds of music. What I like about "Prog' is that it hybridizes various styles, so I can get my jazz, classical, world music, electronica, funk, or folk fix within a rock framework or with a rock influence.
If one is into, say, progressive jazz-rock, I can understand that some may move away from the rock element into purer jazz. What I've found is that the groups I traditionally considered Prog hold less interest for me now, and indeed I don't think they are as "great" in terms of compositional/ instrumental/ musical excellence as many people claim considering the greater world of music -- compred to rock generally, more advanced and complex in terms of harmonies, musicianship. and the other elements of music, but.... Emerson is good, for instance, but I don't think he could cut it as a great classical or jazz pianist. Sometimes I think the Prog heroes are held in too high a regard.
Prog can be extremely boring for me and I can understand why others feel that way.. I think there's also the element of people liking to put down what we enjoy (even the put-downer putting down what he/she enjoys) and to deflate excessive claims of greatness. In some cases, the put-downs are more tongue-in-cheek or put out there in a strong way to provoke discussion.
Anyway, people move into different forms of music, a normal thing in one's journey, and there are times when one may be very dismissive of music one once loved. Even if I went off "Prog' completely (something that won't happen if we consider all of the music in the Prog categories Prog -- I dislike the term to describe my tastes -- considering the huge variety, I couldn't see myself leaving all of the forms of music and approaches included in PA. For a while I was going off any rock-related music though, and the ones in PA that appealed were the ones farthest from rock. Rock will always be something to return to. For some who speak against Prog, they are speaking against rock-based music generally.
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Raff
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 13:14 |
King By-Tor wrote:
I'm pretty sure I'm one of the "people who have been around for quite a long time" type people mentioned in this statement, and my only defense is that it's kind of a defense mechanism for the uber-prog-nazis (I won't name names here), the people who firmly believe that any music made after 1989 is terrible. I don't think that there are any bands that are better than the entire prog subgenre (in my opinion, anyways) because I am a prog fan, and if Rush is my favorite band, well then there isn't anything to top that.
Sorry if the defense mechanism has changed into "auto-fire" mode, but for a long time when I used to visit this site on an addict level I often found that I felt BAD listening to anything that was not prog - and now that I've been listening to nothing BUT that kind of music perhaps I feel bad that some people will never let themselves think that it CAN be good.
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Actually, not at all - and I happen to agree 100% with all you said in this post. I am even quite sure I might have said something very similar to what I mentioned in my opening post (I am anything but perfect, you know ). The thing is, I don't say it every time I write a post, while there are some people who do. You know, once is OK, but every time?
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Queen By-Tor
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 13:21 |
Oh right, the people who only like music that isn't actually music - it's an avant expression of sound recorded on tape and released independently to their mother and two fans yeah.... those guys are douchebags.
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tszirmay
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 13:25 |
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I think it all stems from the fact that progfans are, whether they like it or not, eccentric ! Because our tastes are not popular or trendy, there is a lot of self doubt and hence the fragility of the movement appears out of the mist. Well, it ain't fragile, it survived the punk/new wave/grunge/metal holocaust and its perhaps as vibrant today as beck then. Being a grizzled veteran of prog wars , I really don't care much for self doubt and that is why (much to some consternation) , I rate my reviews higher than most. I listen to whatever moves me and I frankly do not care for what others think. I love Roxy Music, BOC, Ultravox, Magazine, even bought the Jeff Beck video ! This curious phenomenon simply highlights the frivolous elitism some accuse us of.... I , for one, will never bad mouth prog! Ever!
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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lucas
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 13:38 |
tszirmay wrote:
Because our tastes are not popular or trendy |
erm, wasn't prog popular in the seventies ? The fact that "krautrock" was so popular among punks (post-punk owes a lot to krautrock) says a lot.
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Dean
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Posted: February 21 2010 at 13:45 |
lucas wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
Because our tastes are not popular or trendy |
erm, wasn't prog popular in the seventies ? The fact that "krautrock" was so popular among punks (post-punk owes a lot to krautrock) says a lot.
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Eh?
Yes, Prog was popular in the 70s and No, Krautrock was not popular among the punks.
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What?
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A Curious Phenomenon
