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Bonnek View Drop Down
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Points: 4521 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 02:17
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Punk was the arch rival of Prog back in the day, and all the musicians involved in that movement publicly ridiculed Prog bands quite often. 

Now there is a Post-Punk movement that people want to wedge into these archives? Isn't there enough diversity present here, already? 

If you like that type of music, go for it. I listen to plenty of music outside of the Prog circles. Just don't try and make it fit into a place it doesn't belong. prog =/= good. You can enjoy different, original music without having to call it 'prog', y'know. 


Well it comes down to the whole Prog versus 'progressive' debate that rages here every day. Or should I say form versus attitude?
Post-punk was the 'progressive' rock music of the 80's. But it was of course no Prog in any form.

As to the ridicule, they sure laughed at some symphonic Prog, but never at art-rock and kraut as stated above already.

Don't misunderstand me, I'd be perfectly happy if things stay as they are now, but the idea to include post-punk is far from absurd.

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Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 02:34
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by lucas lucas wrote:

Hi all,
 
I noticed we have post-rock, post-metal but no post-punk as a "prog" subgenre. I believe post-punk has nothing in common with punk and appeals more to those who like their music experimental. Indeed, bands like Magazine, Devo, PIL, 23 Skidoo, Gang Of Four, Rip Rig & Panic, This Heat, The Pop Group...are just as experimental as their rock and metal equivalents.
 
Any thoughts ?

Yeah, if post-punk has nothing in common with punk than why is it called post-punk?  I'll admit that I know nothing or little of the bands you mentioned.  Punk was billed as anti-prog back in it's heyday so whatever label it takes, it has to drop "punk" before it should even be seriously considered as a prog sub-genre.

Seriously, how can you move beyond a genre that had such contempt for good musicianship?


Erm, call it a wild stab in the dark if you like but by becoming a better musician ?
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thellama73 View Drop Down
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 08:17
While I like a lot of post-punk bands, I think including them on this site would be a mistake. A quick perusal through Allmusic's list of top post-punk bands should make that fairly obvious.  Here is a partial listing for your convenience. Do you really think these bands aer prog?

Talking Heads
Echo and the Bunnymen
Siouxie and the Banshees
the Cure
Adam Ant
Bauhaus
Violent Femmes
etc....

For me, these bands are much closer to punk than to anything resembling progresive rock, and while they are inventive and at times experimental, that doesn't mean they belong here.
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Points: 24582 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 08:25
^These bands belong to a genre that has its roots in the rebellion against prog and therefore they are not prog, just post-punk. However, some bands from the punk/new-wave movement sounded a bit proggish now and then. But that does not make them prog. Though I am not a diehard purist, I don't think that such bands should be included before PA becomes RA (RockArchives). I can imagine Bowie and Black Sabbath being included, but this is just one bridge too far...
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 08:26
Those bands you listed are incredibly different from each other. Personally, I would never think of mentioning Adam Ant in the same breath as the Talking Heads - who were a huge influence on Eighties King Crimson. I fail to see how Remain in Light is close to punk, but probably it's just me. 
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Points: 169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 08:46
It was not one of the Crimsons guitar players in the "Remain in light" tour, wich you can see in youtube as live in rome?
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 08:50
Yes, Adrian BelewSmile.
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Chris S View Drop Down
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Points: 7028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 12:38
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Those bands you listed are incredibly different from each other. Personally, I would never think of mentioning Adam Ant in the same breath as the Talking Heads - who were a huge influence on Eighties King Crimson. I fail to see how Remain in Light is close to punk, but probably it's just me. 
Yes having Adam Ant and Remain In Light  in the same list makes me wanna slap my laptop shut in despairShocked
 
Rick Wright incidentally mentioned Remain In Light as being one of his personal favourites of all time. Nice reference. Talking Heads almost escape genre tagging like post punk. Art Rock perhaps best fits it but lots of CBGB debutantes like Television and Talking Heads would lend credibility to this site. Magazine's debut springs to mind also.
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Points: 8138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 16:09
Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:


the idea to include post-punk is far from absurd.
At last someone who understands me.
And I would like people here separate new wave or cold-wave (the cure, joy division, siouxsie and banshees, echo and the bunnymen) from post-punk (magazine, devo, the pop group, pere ubu (chris cutler played with them), this heat (with charles hayward from canterbuty band quiet sun), rip rig & punk, gang of four, PIL which are really experimental and bear very little similarity with the often-listed new wave/cold-wave bands when it comes to post-punk.
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:32

^ Cold-wave is an interpretation that is fairly unique to France - which is odd since the bands you identify as cold-wave are mainly British - the term is practically unknown in the UK. Those bands are known as Post Punk.
What?
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Points: 3449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 18:10
Early Talking Heads (where you have Eno and Fripp involvement to various degrees) is as progressive as early-80's KC.  Whether or not it's prog in the strict sense is subject to endless debate.  For that matter, I've seen arguments on this very site questioning whether Discipline, Beat, 3PP are prog.  Talking Heads are a unique case...despite the 'it has a good beat and you can dance to it' quality of much of their output.  Same with Television. 
 
I'd say a good case could be made for the Heads, Television, and my ol' favorites The Wipers as crossover.  Not so sure about post-punk, since these bands were all extremely capable. 
 
 
Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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Points: 4521 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 05:49

By the way, did anyone care to look at All Music. Check the Experimental Rock section

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:4437
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 06:07
Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:


By the way, did anyone care to look at All Music. Check the Experimental Rock section

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:4437




Karl, you can bring up all the examples you want (as I have), but some people here will not take notice of you. They see what they want to see, and will not waver a second from their beliefs. There are people here who believe PA is a den of iniquity because of the Prog-Related section, and don't know what is happening on other sites or publications - or perhaps they just refuse to see.
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Points: 4521 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 06:15
^ But I still have the newbie-energy to help bringing it all up again! Guess I will get frustrated soon enough Smile
The reason why I want to put my energy into this is because the issues around band-additions (and genre-extensions) is the only flaw that I can see in the otherwise perfect concept that is PA.
So I just want to help keeping the debate alive!


Edited by Bonnek - February 19 2010 at 06:16
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 06:31
Karl, I understand your point of view perfectlySmile. You see that, with my almost five years here and almost 20K posts, I still bother posting my opinion. However, no one likes talking to the wall - especially when no one can bring forward any reasons different from 'they're not prog'. As I said in an earlier post, my opinions are always backed by what my ears perceive, not by tags or affiliations.
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Points: 3064 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 08:35
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-punk
 
Post-punk
Stylistic origins Punk rock, Glam rock, Dub, Funk, Reggae, Krautrock, Experimental music, Protopunk, Electronic music,
Cultural origins Mid-Late 1970s, United Kingdom, United States, Australia
Typical instruments Drums - Guitar - Bass guitar - Synthesizer - Keyboard - Drum machine - Modified electronics
Mainstream popularity Moderate in late 1970s, moderate to high in the early-mid 1980s, low to moderate in late 1980s and 1990s. Large revival in early 2000s.
Derivative forms Alternative rock - Deathrock - Gothic rock - Indie rock - Post-punk revival - Industrial
Subgenres
Gothic rock
(complete list)
Regional scenes
Dutch Ultra - German Neue Deutsche Welle - French Coldwave
Other topics
Post-hardcore - Industrial music - New Wave - No Wave
 
These bands don't belong to the Prog-Archives, IMO!!!
 
 
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 08:38
Because of a bunch of labels thrown in by Wikipedia? What about explaining why they don't belong on the basis of the actual MUSIC?

*in full devil's advocate mode today*LOL
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:21
Okay, to take one of the bands mentioned by Lucas as an example: Devo.

Devo's songs are short, filled with hooks, minimally orchestrated, and very simple in structure. The members possessed no degree of instrumental virtuosity to speak of. I like Devo, but I can think of nothing about their music that would warrant them a progressive rock label.

That being said, I think an argument could be made for the inclusion of Pere Ubu, but the thread is about adding a new category (post-punk) not about adding individual bands. Furthermore, to deny that certain bands (joy division, Siouxie, etc.) are post-punk is absurd. Even Lucas admits that coldwave(a term I've never heard before this thread) is a sub-genre of post-punk. That would be like saying Marrillion is not prog because it is neo-prog.


Edited by thellama73 - February 19 2010 at 09:39
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:31
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Okay, to take one of the bands mentioned by Lucas as an example: Devo.

Devo's songs are shorty, filled with hooks, minimally orchestrated, and very simple in structure. The members possessed no degree of instrumental virtuosity to speak of. I like Devo, but I can think of nothing about their music that would warrant them a progressive rock label.

That being said, I think an argument could be made for the inclusion of Pere Ubu, but the thread is about adding a new category (post-punk) not about adding individual bands. Furthermore, to deny that certain bands (joy division, Siouxie, etc.) are post-punk is absurd. Even Lucas admits that coldwave(a term I've never heard before this thread) is a sub-genre of post-punk. That would be like saying Marrillion is not prog because it is neo-prog.


Good postClap! I believe we've been talking a bit at cross-purposes here. In all my posts, I have been referring to individual bands, and not to a new sub-genre (which, in my opinion, would not be a particularly good idea, especially with that name - perhaps something else?). My personal argument has always been to assess bands or artists on an individual basis, and not dismiss them out of hand just because of a tag someone affixed on them some time ago. As I have said on numerous occasions, I judge music on the basis of what I hear, not what someone tells me in a website, book or magazine.
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:58
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:


By the way, did anyone care to look at All Music. Check the Experimental Rock section

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:4437




Karl, you can bring up all the examples you want (as I have), but some people here will not take notice of you. They see what they want to see, and will not waver a second from their beliefs. There are people here who believe PA is a den of iniquity because of the Prog-Related section, and don't know what is happening on other sites or publications - or perhaps they just refuse to see.

Who gives a damn what other sites are doing? We have no loyalty to them, or anybody else. We make decisions based on what we think is best for us. I could really care less what the boys next door are up to.
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