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Dean 
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Joined: May 13 2007
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 Posted: October 01 2009 at 12:25 |
 Kim? wrote:
Dean wrote:
Kim? wrote:
In this way I see downloading more as a way of loaning instead of stealing. I mean, would you buy a work of art that you did not like?
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no, but you wouldn't borrow it either  |
Hehe, well, in a sense I think you actually borrow it. When you go to a gallery (might be a bad example), you take part in or percieve the whole artwork or whatever in some way and you take part in that stream (or lack) of emotions and it's all very cheesy, but you take a part of it with you. And then, maybe you decide to buy it.
And the artwork is freely available to the public, well, sometimes with entrance fees.
The entrance fee can be seen as the money you pay for the internet connection, and all the downloadable mp3s are paintings, and then you give them a good look, and then maybe you decide to buy the ones you like.
Does that make any sense at all? Haha. |
All you are taking away from the gallery is a memory - the same memory you would take away from hearing a song on the radio, or listening to an album at a friends house.
Kim? wrote:
With music, I don't think listening through the album once at the music store or whatever always gives you enough of an impression of the album to decide if you really like it or not. And the library collection is nothing to speak of (where I live, anyway). Would like to hear more examples of try-before-you-buy-things  |
Most obvious places to look for (try before you buy) streamed content is MySpace, LastFM and Spotify - or go to the band's websites and see where their streamed music is available.
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questionsneverknown
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 22 2009
Location: Ultima Thule
Status: Offline
Points: 602
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:54 |
Great discussion folks. In many ways this comes down to Marshall McLuhan's old adage, "the medium is the message." A technology is never just a transparent means of delivering music, it fundamentally transforms the nature of the music, how it's made, produced, experienced, etc. Hell, Bing Crosby became a star because of the development of the microphone--the close, low croon as opposed to the operatic belting out--and pop music changed forever. MP3s obviously represent a further miniaturizing and condensing of sound from the miniaturization and condensation offered by CDs. We can easily get nostalgic about lost forms (I know I often do), but they were already b*****dizations of something that came before. I have a colleague who just retired who swore by his 78s!
The greater effect of MP3s is, as many have said here, the increasing loss of the physical and visual dimension of an album, but it also leads to greater fragmentation, shorter listening patience, which is not good for prog or album-length ideas. Will a future of MP3s, and their inevitable replacement, be able to produce another Sgt Pepper or [fill in the blank]? Yet, when I get down about this, I think of a band like The Residents who keep adapting to new technologies and their recent work, The Bunny Boy, was designed with You Tube and other new media in mind, and it was stunningly creative for doing that--the album wasn't the center of the experience.
The bigger impact, again as others have said, will be the notion that music is supposed to be free. When I speak with my students most of them already assume this is the case. The concept of paying for music seems absurd to them. This is when I feel dystopian and desperate. For everyone who wants to claim that myspace (or myface as Jeremy Clarkson nicely puts it) gets more musicians out there with greater, broader possibilities, I want to know how will these musicians be able to keep making music if no one is paying for it? The real potential here, in the not too distant future, is the end of the whole notion of the professional musician. Which is terribly sad to me, but, then again, that was a new idea that dawned in the 17th century. So perhaps we've just come to an end of a modern idea. Maybe this will all lead to everyone being a musician and no one being a star. Can't say I'm feeling terribly optimistic about it all, I must say. But, as the Firesign Theatre once (nearly) said, Everything I Know is Wrong. God, that was a long one!
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Kim?
Forum Groupie
Joined: August 09 2007
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 84
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:46 |
Dean wrote:
Kim? wrote:
In this way I see downloading more as a way of loaning instead of stealing. I mean, would you buy a work of art that you did not like?
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no, but you wouldn't borrow it either |
Hehe, well, in a sense I think you actually borrow it. When you go to a gallery (might be a bad example), you take part in or percieve the whole artwork or whatever in some way and you take part in that stream (or lack) of emotions and it's all very cheesy, but you take a part of it with you. And then, maybe you decide to buy it. And the artwork is freely available to the public, well, sometimes with entrance fees. The entrance fee can be seen as the money you pay for the internet connection, and all the downloadable mp3s are paintings, and then you give them a good look, and then maybe you decide to buy the ones you like. Does that make any sense at all? Haha.
With music, I don't think listening through the album once at the music store or whatever always gives you enough of an impression of the album to decide if you really like it or not. And the library collection is nothing to speak of (where I live, anyway). Would like to hear more examples of try-before-you-buy-things |
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friso
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 24 2007
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 2506
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:43 |
I only listen to vinyl nowadays, though I have a big download mp3 collection. Since I started playing vinyl I bigan to dispise the sound of digital music. There's just nothing in it for me.
One of the things I like about vinyl is that I mostly by second hand versions of records and therefore could see it as recycling! There's no production needed for my musical collecton's expension .
Downloading music is damaging the way people listen to music in my oppinion. On a vinyl record I never skip songs (it isn't easy) and I tend to listen to the whole record. The complete experience of an album is very important, missing out on one song can destroy that experience.
My last point. Digital art on your computer screen isn't art. It might sound a bit extreme... but I wouldn't make love to a photo of my girlfriend either, I want the real deal. There's enough fakeness in our pleasure culture, let rock music please stay real.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:40 |
moshkito wrote:
It's not difficult to notice on this board ... anytime a discussion gets into quotidian/academic designs/defines, the whole thing tends to get trashed by jokes and comments that deter from the discussion and topic itself. It is akin to a classroom, and too many of the people are not capable of concentrating on a whole lot more than the small song mentality and structure ... and fail to appreciate a discussion and different point of view. It is in fact one of my disappointments ... you can check some of the posts that I have on these same situations. |
I notice this sometimes. It's what I get for being a philosophy prick. 
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:25 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ but maybe, in time, the exception can become the rule. And even if not, haven't people who take music seriously always been an exception?
BTW: It's not like people who collect CDs or records aren't susceptible to bragging ... and over the years I've seen several posts where people with really big collections mentioned that there were many albums in their collections that they haven't listened to yet.
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That's true. But then again, when you brag about a collection of records you even have something physical to brag about..  In the other case, you have to say " excuse me while I turn on my computer where I store pretty much all that's important in my life: memories, photographs, documents, and now even music". And as you mentioned Mike, when you compared a reproduction of a painting to a jpeg, now even pictures!
Really, the dependency on one single device to manage everything scares me. We'll depend for everything on an computer.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:20 |
Kim? wrote:
In this way I see downloading more as a way of loaning instead of stealing. I mean, would you buy a work of art that you did not like?
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no, but you wouldn't borrow it either
There are plenty of ways to try-before-you-buy that don't involve d/loading.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:11 |
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^ but maybe, in time, the exception can become the rule. And even if not, haven't people who take music seriously always been an exception?
BTW: It's not like people who collect CDs or records aren't susceptible to bragging ... and over the years I've seen several posts where people with really big collections mentioned that there were many albums in their collections that they haven't listened to yet.
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Kim?
Forum Groupie
Joined: August 09 2007
Location: Norway
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Points: 84
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:06 |
Thanks for a nice topic and post, Adrian.
terryl wrote:
...on pirate downloading. My apologies to the band here. I went to all registration into this forum in order to say to the band that I am sorry to have downloaded Sleeping I and II in their entirety. After a month of listening i decided I really love your albums I bought them both from Ebay. |
This is what I do as well. I buy what I really like, I certainly don't want to pay money for things that does not bring me pleasure. I think I feel the same pleasure of having the artwork etc. in your hands as some poeple here have expressed, but I would not feel the same if I didn't like the music, a record is mainly about the music, after all. In this way I see downloading more as a way of loaning instead of stealing. I mean, would you buy a work of art that you did not like?
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:04 |
What I dislike the most about MP3s and all downloadable digital music is the fact that I feel it's so insecure, I could lose it every minute. All your collection depends on a computer which could die or your hard drive be damaged. Even if you store music in several external hard drives you're still depending on those for your collection to survive. And, of course, you have to keep spending. Instead of spending, say, 15 USD in an album, you end up spending in the tracks, and in several programs and securities for your colection like anti-viruses, external harddrives, accesories, etc... No matter what you say the advent of digital music (let's call it that way even though CDS could also be called digital) has no basis in quality but just in making us buy more sh*t. Nothing else. Consumism at its purest.
What the OP said in one of his sentences was very accurate. People these days brag about having, "owning" 6000 songs. The focus now in many people is to simply HAVE music, not to enjoy it, listen to it. Yes, 6000 songs, of which probably only 100 they have really heard. With cds, most people at least heard every cd ONCE, with physical music you kind of feel compelled to give every record a try. Downloadable MP3s just encourage you to... have more.
Please, don't think your case is the rule. It's the exception. Music fans who actually listen to all their MP3s are an exception. You are not the rule.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 10:46 |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17509
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 10:34 |
A Person wrote:
Adams Bolero wrote:
It is almost impossible to buy prog cds where I live; it took nearly two months for my local music shop to get Larks Tongues in Aspic! I use mostly ITunes or e music; the fact that I don’t get a physically product doesn’t bother me since I immediately burn a copy of the album and print out the album cover for the jewel case. Bashing mp3s and the whole download culture is easy if you have the luxury to be able to easily purchase prog cds but for those of us who struggle to get even the odd Yes or E.L.P. album mp3’s are a godsend. Buying mp3s and Listening to them on an iPod may not please the purists but I’m not interested in how prog should be brought and listened to; I just want to know where I can buy prog and listen to it easily and mp3’s and iPods suit me perfectly since without them I wouldn’t even have any prog to begin with. |
I have the same problem, the only place I have seen any prog is at Barnes and Nobles, and they only have a limited selection. As far as album art goes, I like having a physical copy. I found a signed printing of PF's Animals cover, but $2500  |
I have been getting all my CD's via email/website for almost 20 years ... what hurt the distribution of a lot of music in the 80's was the lack of access to the stuff and that made a lot of the progressive scene appear to not be as active as it continued to be and was.
Nowadays, there is no reason ... there are no bands out there that would be foolish enough not to have a site with their music samples for you to hear, and not to have a way to sell their material ... and my hope was 20 years ago that Gong, and some of the other stuff I was close to, could/should have done this in order to take hold of their material and control it better ... and not be run by someone else stealing the money! ... like that guy with the colored flying balls! Gong finally did with Johnny and Mike ... around 1994 or so ... but there are some major folks (prog as well) that still are not well represented ... Alan Stivell comes to mind -- specially considering his massive catalogue!
Edited by moshkito - October 01 2009 at 10:43
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mystic fred
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 13 2006
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 10:22 |
I remember when I was growing up it was a real treat to save up for an album and I used to be a lot more choosy about what I purchased. There seemed to be something satisfying about holding an album in your hands. It was a work art musically and graphically for my £3.99 or £4.99 I had a product I could see and touch and become at one with.
exactly what i used to do, yet those download samples can be useful, they are a great way to "taste" what the tracks on a new album might sound like before purchasing, and many many old ones i never got round to hearing.
downloading seems to have taken over from the old music centre culture for cherry-picking tracks on an LP except then you had to buy the album first! but as said 80 pence a track is really a rip-off when the CD can be bought for £2 or so, yet skipping tracks on a CD or download site is like buying a book then ripping out one or two chapters, the whole is lost. On an LP the album is presented as the artist has designed it and those tracks you would have skipped are given a chance to blossom with its artistic integrity intact. 
Edited by mystic fred - October 01 2009 at 10:23
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A Person
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Joined: November 10 2008
Location: __
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 10:06 |
Adams Bolero wrote:
It is almost impossible to buy prog cds where I live; it took nearly two months for my local music shop to get Larks Tongues in Aspic! I use mostly ITunes or e music; the fact that I don’t get a physically product doesn’t bother me since I immediately burn a copy of the album and print out the album cover for the jewel case. Bashing mp3s and the whole download culture is easy if you have the luxury to be able to easily purchase prog cds but for those of us who struggle to get even the odd Yes or E.L.P. album mp3’s are a godsend. Buying mp3s and Listening to them on an iPod may not please the purists but I’m not interested in how prog should be brought and listened to; I just want to know where I can buy prog and listen to it easily and mp3’s and iPods suit me perfectly since without them I wouldn’t even have any prog to begin with. |
I have the same problem, the only place I have seen any prog is at Barnes and Nobles, and they only have a limited selection. As far as album art goes, I like having a physical copy. I found a signed printing of PF's Animals cover, but $2500
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17509
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 10:03 |
Hi,
America is definitly the throwaway culture ... and it it so clear and vivid in the top ten world from music to Hollywood ... to anything else.
The download mentality is due to change by the time that more educated and intelligent people get on to it ... the type and quality of music will change ... and I think that the top hit mentality will lose its luster some.
Part of the reason is that the classical music world, jazz world and other less popular adventures were, and still are, way too slow to make sure their material gets out there for people to hear ... and this makes music available for one crowd ... but you don't see the folks that go to the Symphony once every 6 months getting online to download Beethoven's 6th Symphony!
Hopefully in the near future someone will make Apple look silly and Napster look like kid diapers ... and I would imagine that some sites will be known for this and others for that and others for something else ... and I think at that time, other forms of music have a better chance of being heard and appreciated.
The nature of the "hit/advertising" nation is hurting a lot of other musical styles, scenes ... as the music company glut tends to rush over to yet another copy of some rap (for example) through advertising ... so they can also score some more money. In the end, this will not only hurt those music folks themselves, but also the perception of the public ... that only what sells is good ... and even that is an issue here on this board, as some of the most defended groups, happen to be the ones that sell the most ... everyone can discuss Rush, Genesis, King Crimson, ELP ... and people can argue about Dream Theater ... and things kinda drop off big time after that ... discussions on smaller groups ... and specially those from non-English speaking countries ... is really poor ... and relegated almost exclusively to fans ...
What it will take, is other countries, like France, or Italy, getting on the ball and start doing an iClassic and only sell classical music ... and I think something like that will eventually throw some balance into things ... and it has to be done by a country that has no respect (or care) for the American thing ... so their own artists and music, also has a chance to be heard elsewhere.
But on a side note ... look at the discussions here ... people treating "prog music" as if they were songs ... and that is exactly what most of it ... is not (for the most part) ... and that is not to say that some of this music does not have a song structure, but that in itself is like saying that classical music never had a structure that was not copied by musicians that wanted to do something different with their music, or musicians that were sensible and intelligent enough to create something else.
It's not difficult to notice on this board ... anytime a discussion gets into quotidian/academic designs/defines, the whole thing tends to get trashed by jokes and comments that deter from the discussion and topic itself. It is akin to a classroom, and too many of the people are not capable of concentrating on a whole lot more than the small song mentality and structure ... and fail to appreciate a discussion and different point of view. It is in fact one of my disappointments ... you can check some of the posts that I have on these same situations.
Edited by moshkito - October 01 2009 at 10:16
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13627
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 09:57 |
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This is another very interesting and good debate, similar, of course, to the one following the Martin Orford interview thread.
Some thoughts:
I will not defend illegal downloading (I'm not allowed to anyway on the forum), but I will offer this scenario. I do wish some people would stop venerating the large record companies and music industry mangers/agents, who, by and large, were responsible for ripping off artists by at least as much, if not more, than illegal downloading, or, in the old days, illegal taping of vnyl. There are many such examples.
To further this, consider this. I own The Wall on vinyl - I brought it the week it was released. I also own a CD of the Roger Waters Berlin spectacular, in addition to owning on CD the official live boxset. In other words, I have passed over my hard earned cash three times for essentially the same piece of music. Now, if EMI release a new digitally enhanced version of the Wall on CD, why the hell would I want to pay for it yet again? I've done my bit, and I really and honestly believe that constant re-releases and enhanced packages do rip off the paying public. In this instance, I would have every sympathy with someone who downloaded a torrent illegally.
It is always dangerous having a go at new technology, and the irony is that many of the people having a go at the internet (as if it were an entity in itself) would not have te opportunity to air their views or their music without it.
Downloading will almost certainly replace the physical product of choice, in the same way that CD did with vinyl, DVD did with videotape, and so on. It's called progress, and no amount of moaning will stop this. The key is for the music industry as a whole to come up with a viable business model that addresses the fact that many people like something cheap or free, but also generates revenue. Of course, the newpaper and media industry in general have the same problem.
Don't underestimate resourcefulness - artists, the good ones, will always have an avenue in which to promote their work and make money from it.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 09:39 |
MaxerJ wrote:
I've recently found quite a bit of information about digital distribution (as the suits like to call downloading).
Did you know, for example, that your internet provider has a record of everything you have ever downloaded?
And that they are asked - not legally obliged however - to report illegal downloads to the police?
However, they never do, because they would quickly lose all their clients. And the police aren't doing anything - I can only speak for Australia, but our police force is not equipped for the 21st century... they're living in the 80's.
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Well, here in Germany ISPs are expressedly forbidden to monitor their customers' activities. They may monitor when a DSL connection is established, but nothing else. And there's the monitoring they're supposed to do for the government to aid in the fight against terrorism ... but that data is also expressedly forbidden to be used for other purposes (like tracking down copyright infringement).
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 09:37 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ I rather think that 30 years from now serious musicians will simply record their music and publish it themselves ... recording and publishing will cost next to nothing, and the musicians can simply offer the music on their websites and charge whatever they want, or ask for donations. Once you eliminate the *industry* from the equation, it doesn't look so hopeless anymore. |
I honestly think that sounds dire and will be the day music died. Melodramatic? No, not really - I don't see that as a musical Utopia, because it is a scenario that is not self-sustaining: there will be no incentive to make good music, there will be no quality control, no means for the cream to rise to the top and no means of promotion other than self-promotion.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 09:26 |
MaxerJ wrote:
Did you know, for example, that your internet provider has a record of everything you have ever downloaded?
And that they are asked - not legally obliged however - to report illegal downloads to the police?
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That's a very touchy issue. How are they supposed to know if you're making illegal downloading? Let's say they see you've downloaded from Rapidshare a .zip archive which contains .mp3 files. How can they tell whether it's an illegal download? If it's music made available for free by the band, how could they know? Do they have an expert which knows all the legal aspects of music industry and works like "Hey this guy just downloaded what appears to be a Gentle Giant album, and we know from the record company that there is no legal Gentle Giant music provided through that particular website, so let's report this downloader!" or something? I don't suppose there is such a thing. The same with torrents - lots of free music is made available via torrents. What are they going to do, try a "behavioural" approach? Get a warrant for house search for those who use exceedingly much particular sharing sites or the torrents? That would make sense, but it would be no different than Big Brother society : suspicion ruling the world.
Epignosis wrote:
Just like I only read excerpts of the original post and skipped the rest. 
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So very true; I skipped the OP completely  Back to the topic, I do like to buy CDs. It's a wonderful experience... unwrapping the plastic, touching the object, smelling it, admiring the shining CD, browsing the booklet, reading the information... A wonderful experience which lasts for about 30 minutes  After that I rip the CD to .flac files, v0 quality .mp3 (for listening) and v5 quality .mp3 (for my portable player), I put the CD on the shelf and I don't touch it in years. Why would I anyway? I don't have a CD player and don't intend to. I rather like organizing my listening experience via PC, and having all my listens transformed into statistics which help me for future musical explorations and for social networking via last.fm and any site where I can embed last.fm widgets. So why do I keep buying CDs? There are two reasons: 1. The bands I buy albums from are underground bands, who will most likely never get the chance to reissue their albums in the future. Having the original albums now makes me a sort of special "librarian"; in 20 years from now most of the albums I now buy will be collector's items. 2. My future children will definitely need them, as I don't plan to have computers around them until they grow up to be adolescents. I will rather encourage them to play in the garden, draw, paint, make sculptures, play an instrument, take care of animals, do gardening, playing sporting games, read books etc., instead of playing PC games and consuming most of their time with TV and Internet. So if they'll want to listen to music they'll definitely need a CD Player and real CDs. 
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Mr ProgFreak
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Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
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Posted: October 01 2009 at 09:23 |
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^ I rather think that 30 years from now serious musicians will simply record their music and publish it themselves ... recording and publishing will cost next to nothing, and the musicians can simply offer the music on their websites and charge whatever they want, or ask for donations. Once you eliminate the *industry* from the equation, it doesn't look so hopeless anymore.
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Throwaway Download Culture
