Throwaway Download Culture
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: General Music Discussions
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=61653
Printed Date: November 25 2024 at 14:25
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Topic: Throwaway Download Culture
Posted By: tworoads
Subject: Throwaway Download Culture
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 03:13
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Pot Noodle Music Nation Whilst I was thinking in bed last night my mind jumped suddenly to the phenomenon of downloading music and whether it has effected my patience and judgment on whether I actually give any music I download a fair chance of a listen anymore before lam yet again off downloading something else. Perhaps lam chasing the progressive rock rainbow the pot of gold
album that will never ever exist but it doesn't seem to deter me trying
though.(I am sure we have all had the thought that this is the album) I remember when I was growing up it was a real treat to save up for an album and I used to be a lot more choosy about what I purchased. There seemed to be something satisfying about holding an album in your hands. It was a work art musically and graphically for my £3.99 or £4.99 I had a product I could see and touch and become at one with. Records became like your closet friends someone you could share your innermost thoughts with,more reliable and better looking than most of the girls I went out with anyway then again that wasn't difficult. I used to have a record brush to clean them with,and plastic sleeves to store them in and handle them by the edges and frown when ever anybody else touched them apart from me. So records were my social and love life all mixed into one without the headaches or the fear of being turned away by my fumbling chat up lines or clumsy advances towards the opposite sex. I do remember with great excitement the first time I ever downloaded a track from the internet,well I admit it I was a music pirate at that point. Thinking about it I would have made a crap pirate,i would have been the one with a dodgy plastic pirate patch from the joke shop with the ridiculous piece of elastic on and a wooden leg made out of balsa wood. This something I have never felt comfortable with. I felt like I was the only person doing this and I would have all the government agencies at one point knocking at my door. I must have spent weeks hiding behind the sofa and dodgy curtains every time the door bell rang. It was something of a revelation at first when all these music download stores starting popping up with legal downloads for about £6.99 or so,i was downloading like mad and I felt good about it legal music downloaded off the internet,even though at this point I still had a thought in the back of my mind? How does this effect the bands that make all this great music ,would they be getting any of the money that I was giving to these various websites,it just didn't feel right to me and still doesn't to this day. It really is a double edged sword because I know that without the internet I wouldn't have been able to listen to as much music as I have,and bands perhaps would not get the exposure that they have now. But has all this actually helped any bands has it made them financially viable? It has obviously widened their audience quite dramatically but does that mean the music fans are actually buying any more of their music? Perhaps I am just getting older but it seems people from my generation (I am 42 years old now) seem to be more responsible in the way that they manage their music collections and embrace the internet and music in general. Personally I listen to new music tracks now on the internet and where ever possible order the cd`s direct from the band themselves. Where this is not possible I use specialist progressive rock online shops to purchase from. I have at times even downloaded music from mindawn.com but always end up with a physical cd in my hands afterwards. This is the problem everything is now so immediate and we really cant seem to wait for anything any more. You cannot beat the excitement of waiting for a cd to arrive and trying to smuggle it upstairs without your wife or girlfriend knowing. (Perhaps prog cd`s should come in plain brown envelopes) So mp3,flac,ogg,wav,aa,rac there are so many different types of music extensions fueled by the ever growing market of mp3 players,we must have music in a portable format so we can listen when ever we want. I have been caught up in the technological addiction of this I bought one of the first ipods ,a lovely white colour and managed to annoy everyone on my greenline bus with the volume when I was a lot younger. The thing is I now look at these people with there various ear pieces in headphones,sabretooth or whatever it is called this week and just sigh. Without all this technology i wouldn't have been able to make my site current with new reviews of music and updates etc so i have embraced this technology up to a point but just feel a little sad at times that things have changed this way. Music to me should be enjoyed live where ever possible,if not in the comfort of your living room with a decent stereo and a proper book of rules to go with the listening experience not some instant electronic file that is turning us into a pot noodle music nation. What does everyone else think? Todds http://www.progboys.com/ - www.progboys.com |
Replies:
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 03:25
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"...And all of a sudden, kids can download an album in the space of minutes. Not just an album - The band's entire back catalogue. Think about it - A kid downloads The Wall, listens to a couple of tracks, doesn't like what he hears and deletes it. This is the true danger of the download - When music can be so easily obtained, it can be cast away with just as little thought."
- Steven Wilson I only ever buy CD's, and the few downloads I own are thins which aren't available on CD's (Example, Porcupine Tree's live version of TINTO BRASS from WARSZAWA). Technology is incredibly important in music technology - If not for the internet (and PA) I sincerely doubt I'd listen to a quarter of the music I've grown to love.
I agree 100% with what you said - I'm 15, but I still buy CD's, and I have to wait for a majority of them for to arrive a couple of weeks later in the post. I genuinely enjoy this wait - It builds my anticipation for the album, and as I have my sights set on it, I usually give it more thought and listening than I will with a disc I borrowed off a friend.
Same here - Not only does it support the artist, but the prices are usually better.
You're right about majority of kids my age - I have friends who brag about owning 6000 songs, and around 5900 of those are usually (illegally) downloaded. Thats my two cents. Great post and thread, and welcome to PA! -Joel ------------- 
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TwoRoads wrote:Posted By: tworoads
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 03:37
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joel thanks for your reply and your insight that is a great quote from steven wilson,i hadnt seen that before. thanks for sharing it with me. adrian |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 03:43
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Thanks Adrian - I also thought I should add that its hard to claim you're a fan of, and love, the music if you download it for free. I mean, if you're not willing to pay for it, how much can you care? -------------
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Posted By: tworoads
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 03:48
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i completely agree joel, it is a major issue to be honest it is so refreshing to hear someone say that for once. i do believe that the majority of progressive rock fans though have a conscience and like to support their favourite artists though. |
Posted By: The Sleepwalker
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 04:44
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I pretty much agree with everything you pointed out in your post, but I'd like to add the downloading of singles... people just downloading that one song they've heard and not caring about the remaining music on the album. I think a the mood of the album is much less "optimal" when the artwork is missing... a nice example of this is the album 10,000 Days from Tool, which I recently bought. The album CD cover contains some glasses, that you have to use to see the artwork in the booklet in 3D. Very original, and it gives the album just that little bit extra mood to make it even better than it already is. For this, I have never downloaded an album or felt the need to download an album (except a few which were free legal downloads on the band's official website). ------------- 
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 05:13
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I think that SW is wrong here ... sure, downloading an album is a much faster and less intense thing than buying an album, unwrapping it and putting it in a player. On the other hand the internet with all the free sample sites (myspace, last.fm) and download stores makes the music available to many people who would not have bought a full album in the first place. Sure, some of them will check out a few tracks, decide that it's not for them and move on. But many others will be motivated to download a full album ... and - at least for me - a downloaded album can be appreciated as much as an album that you have in your physical collection. I know that this transition is difficult for some people who are simply very used to holding albums in their hands, but in time the digital versions will replace the paper and plastic. BTW: Don't think that musicians get rich by selling physical albums ... they may be more expensive than downloads, but that doesn't mean that the musicians get a big share of that money. In any case, the musicians are responsible for selecting which stores their albums are available at (or, by extension, the record companies that the musicians chose to make deals with). If they choose to make the album available at iTunes or Amazon MP3, or even at eMusic.com (which is the most affordable MP3 store AFAIK), us fans should not hesitate to purchase their music there. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 05:18
Its good to hear you can do that, and I understand it, but I also feel you need the album artwork. Sure, you can look at it on your computer, but as (another) Steven Wilson quote about downloading points out... "If I buy a piece of art, I want it on my wall. Not as a f**king J-Peg on my PC or iPhone." I know the album art can be there, but I can't feel it, I can't hold it, and I can't feel the same buzz as feeling and seeing the physical art. -------------
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 05:22
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^ I simply don't share SW's resentment when it comes to digital data. BTW: if I wanted to put all my albums on my wall, I would clearly need a bigger room ... maybe a cool solution would be a digital picture frame, with the cover art of all my albums, cycling every two minutes. And incidentally: How is a jpeg that different from a printed reproduction of a painting? ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 05:25
You can't physically see or hold a Jpeg in your hands, and its nothing material. -------------
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 05:30
| ^ you can display the jpeg on a monitor (or in a digital picture frame) - then you can hold that in your hands. |
Posted By: tworoads
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 05:32
but what about the pixels  its the pixels poor Pablo Picasso would be turning in his grave
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Posted By: Qboyy007
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 05:39
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Digital Downloading (even bootlegging) is a blessing to small, up and coming bands. ------------- Hay Budday |
Posted By: tworoads
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 05:45
I agree with digital Downloading if legal but boot legging i disagree with completely. This is the whole point to fully support the bands and not harm their potential income,sucess how is bootlegging helping anyone? |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 05:48
Its just not the same - I don't know how to explain... -------------
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Posted By: terryl
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 05:52
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hi, i just want to share with you some of my feelings I posted on http://forum.spa-networks.co.uk/punforum/viewtopic.php?id=297 - beardfish forum incidentally a couple of days ago. Here goes.
and
------------- And who are we to justify the right in all we do Until we seek, until we find Ammonia Avenue http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrmJ39j58W0 |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 05:54
The answer to that is probably "not very much" since a printed reproduction pales into insignificance when compared to the original, especially if it is of one of the Old Master such as The Night Watch or The Hay Wain where the scale and finess of the oringinal can not be conveyed in a small A2 reproduction and the colour depth and spectrum cannot be replicated using four-colour printing techniques (even using giclee printing process). ------------- What? |
Posted By: The Sleepwalker
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 05:57
With a CD booklet you've got to skip pages or unfold it... on a monitor all you need to do is scroll down. Also, you can touch the monitor, but you can't touch the artwork directly, which you can do with a CD booklet. People can feel they are holding a paper booklet, while they can't feel they're holding a Jpeg... Also, one little malfunction and the monitor turns black and the artwork is gone. -------------
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Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 06:04
That explains it a lot better - I love to feel the texture of the slipcases, digipaks or booklets... -------------
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Posted By: MaxerJ
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 06:13
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I've recently found quite a bit of information about digital distribution (as the suits like to call downloading). Did you know, for example, that your internet provider has a record of everything you have ever downloaded? And that they are asked - not legally obliged however - to report illegal downloads to the police? However, they never do, because they would quickly lose all their clients. And the police aren't doing anything - I can only speak for Australia, but our police force is not equipped for the 21st century... they're living in the 80's. It is a serious epidemic. Bands have always got screwed over one way or another - a.k.a record companies giving them crappy contracts - but you would have hoped that when 16-year-olds can play in front of crowds of thousands we could spend a little time giving other bands the money they deserve. Speaking of 16-year-olds, this is why Disney is making such a big splash in the music industry - their audience, consisting of 8-14 year old girls, has no idea what downloading is, let alone are repeated downloaders. Think of that next time someone says d/ling doesn't affect how much an artist makes. ------------- Godspeed, You Bolero Enthusiasts  'Prog is all about leaving home...' - Moshkito
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Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 06:19
You're right about the aussie police force - Massive stereotypes about internet, music and youth all round! I knew about your ISP knowing what you've downloaded, but I didn't know they were told to tell the police. Great post, and welcome to PA! -Joel  -------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 06:27
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I have younger relatives who only listen to a classic band when a song of said band is performed on American Idol or used as part of the soundtrack for a Disney movie. Then they download the one song and pretend that they like the artist. I'm not sure what to make of all that, really. I mean, let's be fair here. There's only so much time and yet so much music. If a person hears a few tracks from The Wall and doesn't like it, why waste time listening to the whole thing (let alone buying)? Perhaps the person is missing out, but perhaps not. Just like I only read excerpts of the original post and skipped the rest.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 06:29
Perfect point of case: I know a girl who payed me out for liking the original, and now she listens to the crappy Glee version and think she's into classic rock  -------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 06:31
Good example. I've heard more than one person call the song, "Just a Small Town Girl." 
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 06:33
Also, about the thing you said about The Wall, the point was that someone wouldn't/didn't/won't give it the time it deserves to be appreciated, and as the title suggests, form part of the "throwaway download culture". -------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 06:37
I understand that, but again, I think my point is valid. We have free streaming tracks here, including songs taken from concept albums that are probably better off appreciated as a whole, and yet, if we don't like the sample, we might not acquire the album. Hell, most of us first heard a song or two from The Wall on the radio- that all but forgotten relic of our culture, which prompted some to buy the album and others to pass on it, I would imagine. Now if a person downloads an album legally, listens to a few songs and nothing else, then oh well...the artist (and whoever) has the money anyway. If a person illegally downloads an album, then they shouldn't be listening to the music in the first place. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 06:45
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THIS JUST IN!
On my live upload of Porcupine Tree - Radioactive Toy (I won't name the guy who asked/posted about it though) (BLANK 1) (1 week ago) +2 Reply | Spam | Remove | Block User Just heard the new "Incident" album - really quite excellent, I love it when Porcupine Tree release, always exciting, always pushing boundaries but whats great is they always stay Porcupine Tree. Cant get enough of this track, you saw it live you lucky b*****d. Gavin Harrison = bloody legend (BLANK 2) (1 day ago) 0 Reply | Spam | Remove | Block User is it downloadable? progkidjoel (23 hours ago) Reply | Remove Yes it is - You can get it on iTunes and Amazon Mp3! (BLANK) (21 hours ago) 0 is it free? progkidjoel (13 hours ago) Reply | Remove No, it costs around 9USD to legally download it, or about 15USD to buy the discs in store. (BLANK) (23 minutes ago) Reply | Remove I found a torrent, anyone who wants a link pm me ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhfyEUEQZao - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhfyEUEQZao ) -------------
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 06:48
When The Wall was originally released, mainstream many music radio station would have had shows that would play long tracks. However, I did get pissed when Whispering Bob Harris got to interview bands like Pink Floyd and in his soft raspy voice, produce enough inflection/genuflection to make it appear he venerated Animals or whatever as if it was the best composition since Beethoven's 9th Symphony - when the cynic would say that album was a contractual obligation to EMI far less a major work of art that will survive as such for at least two centuries. (NOTE: one of Monty Python's LPs was called Contractual Obligation Record in such recognition). Clearly certain things have changed since the mid 70's.
I'm reluctant to download, for one I think the price is a rip off, two the quality is usually worse than CD, and three I too enjoy receiving something tangible - but I'm afraid the opportunity to browse through rack after of rack of LP sleeves or CDs has largely disappeared (my Saturday shop is over in hour nowadays, when 5 years ago I could spend at least an extra hour in the local second hand record store - alas now gone). ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 06:54
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yeah, the answer is to limit people's ability to make & release music, force the listener into repeated plays of the same music, abolish all other new methods of entertaining one's self ... all with the goal of banishing the cycle of life that would bring back the music industry to its' pre halcyon days, i.e. before 1965. I often wonder about the arguements the neo cons use in wishing the 1950s as the model period of human behaviour and family values ... ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Adams Bolero
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 07:09
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It is almost impossible to buy prog cds where I live; it took nearly two months for my local music shop to get Larks Tongues in Aspic! I use mostly ITunes or e music; the fact that I don’t get a physically product doesn’t bother me since I immediately burn a copy of the album and print out the album cover for the jewel case. Bashing mp3s and the whole download culture is easy if you have the luxury to be able to easily purchase prog cds but for those of us who struggle to get even the odd Yes or E.L.P. album mp3’s are a godsend. Buying mp3s and Listening to them on an iPod may not please the purists but I’m not interested in how prog should be brought and listened to; I just want to know where I can buy prog and listen to it easily and mp3’s and iPods suit me perfectly since without them I wouldn’t even have any prog to begin with.
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 07:13
I know what you mean. I do in fact own a copy of Olias of Sunhillow on vinyl, and of course the texture of the sleeves adds to the album somehow. I don't want to take these little tactile sensations away from you ... but I do think that they're overrated. Like Dean said: In most cases the originals are much more impressive than any reproductions on paper, but because we know that it's not possible to have the original we are content to have a copy. For me it simply doesn't make that much of a difference whether I have a copy on my harddisk or on paper. I can't really put either of them on my wall - even the album cover would slowly deteriorate (due to exposure to air, humidity and light). I remember watching the YouTube video of the production of the Led Zeppelin vinyl boxset that was posted in this or another thread a while ago. Isn't it amazing how we can put so much emphasis on this that don't have anything to do with the music? It almost seems like a weird form of fetishism to me ... and as far as I'm concerned, I choose to be obsessive about music rather than paper sleeves and plastic/vinyl discs. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 07:18
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The downloading technology is the future of music and we cannot get away without it. The problem is how the bands could benefit in royalty from the sales of all downloads purchases. How much control can they have on the internet downloading? We have on one side our internet provider who encourage the downloading and on the other side some artists and labels who try to stop the downloading. Maybe it is easier to force the internet provider to increase the cost of a month subscription than to go after all individuals who download music illegally. How much are you willing to pay for Internet? How much money does it takes for a artists to live on his music? I think we have to control illegal downloading, to save our culture. But it's going to be like any services or goods in our life, meaning it's going to cost more. Nothing is free for eternity...
------------- Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness. Emile M. Cioran |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 07:33
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^ the best strategy would be for new bands to record and publish their music all by themselves, bypassing the record industry. You can do that for example via TuneCore.com. You can register your music there and they will distribute it to iTunes, Amazon MP3 etc.. Of course they're doing it for free, but still ... I think this is the way to go. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 08:13
Yes, that's legal download, but can this could live with the illegal download? How many people will choose I Tune if they can have for free their favorites cd's by a peer-to-peer files? ------------- Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness. Emile M. Cioran |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 09:13
We can talk about it until we are blue in the face, but it won't change anything. None of the alternative financial models proposed can support the current recording industry - the only viable solution involves a down-scaling of the music business on a global scale, and once that happens no one will be making moeny from music anymore, it will cease to be a business so it will just be an expensive hobby and every minute (of music) will be famous for 15 people.
------------- What? |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 09:23
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^ I rather think that 30 years from now serious musicians will simply record their music and publish it themselves ... recording and publishing will cost next to nothing, and the musicians can simply offer the music on their websites and charge whatever they want, or ask for donations. Once you eliminate the *industry* from the equation, it doesn't look so hopeless anymore.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 09:26
That's a very touchy issue. How are they supposed to know if you're making illegal downloading? Let's say they see you've downloaded from Rapidshare a .zip archive which contains .mp3 files. How can they tell whether it's an illegal download? If it's music made available for free by the band, how could they know? Do they have an expert which knows all the legal aspects of music industry and works like "Hey this guy just downloaded what appears to be a Gentle Giant album, and we know from the record company that there is no legal Gentle Giant music provided through that particular website, so let's report this downloader!" or something? I don't suppose there is such a thing. The same with torrents - lots of free music is made available via torrents. What are they going to do, try a "behavioural" approach? Get a warrant for house search for those who use exceedingly much particular sharing sites or the torrents? That would make sense, but it would be no different than Big Brother society : suspicion ruling the world.
So very true; I skipped the OP completely  Back to the topic, I do like to buy CDs. It's a wonderful experience... unwrapping the plastic, touching the object, smelling it, admiring the shining CD, browsing the booklet, reading the information... A wonderful experience which lasts for about 30 minutes After that I rip the CD to .flac files, v0 quality .mp3 (for listening) and v5 quality .mp3 (for my portable player), I put the CD on the shelf and I don't touch it in years. Why would I anyway? I don't have a CD player and don't intend to. I rather like organizing my listening experience via PC, and having all my listens transformed into statistics which help me for future musical explorations and for social networking via last.fm and any site where I can embed last.fm widgets. So why do I keep buying CDs? There are two reasons: 1. The bands I buy albums from are underground bands, who will most likely never get the chance to reissue their albums in the future. Having the original albums now makes me a sort of special "librarian"; in 20 years from now most of the albums I now buy will be collector's items. 2. My future children will definitely need them, as I don't plan to have computers around them until they grow up to be adolescents. I will rather encourage them to play in the garden, draw, paint, make sculptures, play an instrument, take care of animals, do gardening, playing sporting games, read books etc., instead of playing PC games and consuming most of their time with TV and Internet. So if they'll want to listen to music they'll definitely need a CD Player and real CDs.  |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 09:37
------------- What? |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 09:39
Well, here in Germany ISPs are expressedly forbidden to monitor their customers' activities. They may monitor when a DSL connection is established, but nothing else. And there's the monitoring they're supposed to do for the government to aid in the fight against terrorism ... but that data is also expressedly forbidden to be used for other purposes (like tracking down copyright infringement). ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 09:57
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This is another very interesting and good debate, similar, of course, to the one following the Martin Orford interview thread. Some thoughts: I will not defend illegal downloading (I'm not allowed to anyway on the forum), but I will offer this scenario. I do wish some people would stop venerating the large record companies and music industry mangers/agents, who, by and large, were responsible for ripping off artists by at least as much, if not more, than illegal downloading, or, in the old days, illegal taping of vnyl. There are many such examples. To further this, consider this. I own The Wall on vinyl - I brought it the week it was released. I also own a CD of the Roger Waters Berlin spectacular, in addition to owning on CD the official live boxset. In other words, I have passed over my hard earned cash three times for essentially the same piece of music. Now, if EMI release a new digitally enhanced version of the Wall on CD, why the hell would I want to pay for it yet again? I've done my bit, and I really and honestly believe that constant re-releases and enhanced packages do rip off the paying public. In this instance, I would have every sympathy with someone who downloaded a torrent illegally. It is always dangerous having a go at new technology, and the irony is that many of the people having a go at the internet (as if it were an entity in itself) would not have te opportunity to air their views or their music without it. Downloading will almost certainly replace the physical product of choice, in the same way that CD did with vinyl, DVD did with videotape, and so on. It's called progress, and no amount of moaning will stop this. The key is for the music industry as a whole to come up with a viable business model that addresses the fact that many people like something cheap or free, but also generates revenue. Of course, the newpaper and media industry in general have the same problem. Don't underestimate resourcefulness - artists, the good ones, will always have an avenue in which to promote their work and make money from it. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 10:03
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Hi,
America is definitly the throwaway culture ... and it it so clear and vivid in the top ten world from music to Hollywood ... to anything else.
The download mentality is due to change by the time that more educated and intelligent people get on to it ... the type and quality of music will change ... and I think that the top hit mentality will lose its luster some.
Part of the reason is that the classical music world, jazz world and other less popular adventures were, and still are, way too slow to make sure their material gets out there for people to hear ... and this makes music available for one crowd ... but you don't see the folks that go to the Symphony once every 6 months getting online to download Beethoven's 6th Symphony!
Hopefully in the near future someone will make Apple look silly and Napster look like kid diapers ... and I would imagine that some sites will be known for this and others for that and others for something else ... and I think at that time, other forms of music have a better chance of being heard and appreciated.
The nature of the "hit/advertising" nation is hurting a lot of other musical styles, scenes ... as the music company glut tends to rush over to yet another copy of some rap (for example) through advertising ... so they can also score some more money. In the end, this will not only hurt those music folks themselves, but also the perception of the public ... that only what sells is good ... and even that is an issue here on this board, as some of the most defended groups, happen to be the ones that sell the most ... everyone can discuss Rush, Genesis, King Crimson, ELP ... and people can argue about Dream Theater ... and things kinda drop off big time after that ... discussions on smaller groups ... and specially those from non-English speaking countries ... is really poor ... and relegated almost exclusively to fans ...
What it will take, is other countries, like France, or Italy, getting on the ball and start doing an iClassic and only sell classical music ... and I think something like that will eventually throw some balance into things ... and it has to be done by a country that has no respect (or care) for the American thing ... so their own artists and music, also has a chance to be heard elsewhere.
But on a side note ... look at the discussions here ... people treating "prog music" as if they were songs ... and that is exactly what most of it ... is not (for the most part) ... and that is not to say that some of this music does not have a song structure, but that in itself is like saying that classical music never had a structure that was not copied by musicians that wanted to do something different with their music, or musicians that were sensible and intelligent enough to create something else.
It's not difficult to notice on this board ... anytime a discussion gets into quotidian/academic designs/defines, the whole thing tends to get trashed by jokes and comments that deter from the discussion and topic itself. It is akin to a classroom, and too many of the people are not capable of concentrating on a whole lot more than the small song mentality and structure ... and fail to appreciate a discussion and different point of view. It is in fact one of my disappointments ... you can check some of the posts that I have on these same situations.
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Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 10:06
I have the same problem, the only place I have seen any prog is at Barnes and Nobles, and they only have a limited selection. As far as album art goes, I like having a physical copy. I found a signed printing of PF's Animals cover, but $2500  |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 10:22
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I remember when I was growing up it was a real treat to save up for an album and I used to be a lot more choosy about what I purchased. There seemed to be something satisfying about holding an album in your hands. It was a work art musically and graphically for my £3.99 or £4.99 I had a product I could see and touch and become at one with.
exactly what i used to do, yet those download samples can be useful, they are a great way to "taste" what the tracks on a new album might sound like before purchasing, and many many old ones i never got round to hearing.
 downloading seems to have taken over from the old music centre culture for cherry-picking tracks on an LP except then you had to buy the album first! but as said 80 pence a track is really a rip-off when the CD can be bought for £2 or so, yet skipping tracks on a CD or download site is like buying a book then ripping out one or two chapters, the whole is lost. On an LP the album is presented as the artist has designed it and those tracks you would have skipped are given a chance to blossom with its artistic integrity intact.
 -------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 10:34
I have been getting all my CD's via email/website for almost 20 years ... what hurt the distribution of a lot of music in the 80's was the lack of access to the stuff and that made a lot of the progressive scene appear to not be as active as it continued to be and was.
Nowadays, there is no reason ... there are no bands out there that would be foolish enough not to have a site with their music samples for you to hear, and not to have a way to sell their material ... and my hope was 20 years ago that Gong, and some of the other stuff I was close to, could/should have done this in order to take hold of their material and control it better ... and not be run by someone else stealing the money! ... like that guy with the colored flying balls! Gong finally did with Johnny and Mike ... around 1994 or so ... but there are some major folks (prog as well) that still are not well represented ... Alan Stivell comes to mind -- specially considering his massive catalogue!
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 10:46
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http://www.emusic.com/artist/Alan-Stivell-MP3-Download/11843718.html - http://www.emusic.com/artist/Alan-Stivell-MP3-Download/11843718.html :-) ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:04
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What I dislike the most about MP3s and all downloadable digital music is the fact that I feel it's so insecure, I could lose it every minute. All your collection depends on a computer which could die or your hard drive be damaged. Even if you store music in several external hard drives you're still depending on those for your collection to survive. And, of course, you have to keep spending. Instead of spending, say, 15 USD in an album, you end up spending in the tracks, and in several programs and securities for your colection like anti-viruses, external harddrives, accesories, etc... No matter what you say the advent of digital music (let's call it that way even though CDS could also be called digital) has no basis in quality but just in making us buy more sh*t. Nothing else. Consumism at its purest.
What the OP said in one of his sentences was very accurate. People these days brag about having, "owning" 6000 songs. The focus now in many people is to simply HAVE music, not to enjoy it, listen to it. Yes, 6000 songs, of which probably only 100 they have really heard. With cds, most people at least heard every cd ONCE, with physical music you kind of feel compelled to give every record a try. Downloadable MP3s just encourage you to... have more.
Please, don't think your case is the rule. It's the exception. Music fans who actually listen to all their MP3s are an exception. You are not the rule. ------------- 
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Posted By: Kim?
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:06
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Thanks for a nice topic and post, Adrian.
This is what I do as well. I buy what I really like, I certainly don't want to pay money for things that does not bring me pleasure. I think I feel the same pleasure of having the artwork etc. in your hands as some poeple here have expressed, but I would not feel the same if I didn't like the music, a record is mainly about the music, after all. In this way I see downloading more as a way of loaning instead of stealing. I mean, would you buy a work of art that you did not like? |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:11
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^ but maybe, in time, the exception can become the rule. And even if not, haven't people who take music seriously always been an exception? BTW: It's not like people who collect CDs or records aren't susceptible to bragging ... and over the years I've seen several posts where people with really big collections mentioned that there were many albums in their collections that they haven't listened to yet. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:20
no, but you wouldn't borrow it either
There are plenty of ways to try-before-you-buy that don't involve d/loading. ------------- What? |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:25
That's true. But then again, when you brag about a collection of records you even have something physical to brag about..
 In the other case, you have to say "excuse me while I turn on my computer where I store pretty much all that's important in my life: memories, photographs, documents, and now even music". And as you mentioned Mike, when you compared a reproduction of a painting to a jpeg, now even pictures! Really, the dependency on one single device to manage everything scares me. We'll depend for everything on an computer.
-------------
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:40
I notice this sometimes. It's what I get for being a philosophy prick.  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:43
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I only listen to vinyl nowadays, though I have a big download mp3 collection. Since I started playing vinyl I bigan to dispise the sound of digital music. There's just nothing in it for me.
One of the things I like about vinyl is that I mostly by second hand versions of records and therefore could see it as recycling! There's no production needed for my musical collecton's expension .
Downloading music is damaging the way people listen to music in my oppinion. On a vinyl record I never skip songs (it isn't easy) and I tend to listen to the whole record. The complete experience of an album is very important, missing out on one song can destroy that experience. My last point. Digital art on your computer screen isn't art. It might sound a bit extreme... but I wouldn't make love to a photo of my girlfriend either, I want the real deal. There's enough fakeness in our pleasure culture, let rock music please stay real. |
Posted By: Kim?
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:46
Hehe, well, in a sense I think you actually borrow it. When you go to a gallery (might be a bad example), you take part in or percieve the whole artwork or whatever in some way and you take part in that stream (or lack) of emotions and it's all very cheesy, but you take a part of it with you. And then, maybe you decide to buy it. And the artwork is freely available to the public, well, sometimes with entrance fees. The entrance fee can be seen as the money you pay for the internet connection, and all the downloadable mp3s are paintings, and then you give them a good look, and then maybe you decide to buy the ones you like. Does that make any sense at all? Haha. With music, I don't think listening through the album once at the music store or whatever always gives you enough of an impression of the album to decide if you really like it or not. And the library collection is nothing to speak of (where I live, anyway). Would like to hear more examples of try-before-you-buy-things
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Posted By: questionsneverknown
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 11:54
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Great discussion folks. In many ways this comes down to Marshall McLuhan's old adage, "the medium is the message." A technology is never just a transparent means of delivering music, it fundamentally transforms the nature of the music, how it's made, produced, experienced, etc. Hell, Bing Crosby became a star because of the development of the microphone--the close, low croon as opposed to the operatic belting out--and pop music changed forever. MP3s obviously represent a further miniaturizing and condensing of sound from the miniaturization and condensation offered by CDs. We can easily get nostalgic about lost forms (I know I often do), but they were already b*****dizations of something that came before. I have a colleague who just retired who swore by his 78s! The greater effect of MP3s is, as many have said here, the increasing loss of the physical and visual dimension of an album, but it also leads to greater fragmentation, shorter listening patience, which is not good for prog or album-length ideas. Will a future of MP3s, and their inevitable replacement, be able to produce another Sgt Pepper or [fill in the blank]? Yet, when I get down about this, I think of a band like The Residents who keep adapting to new technologies and their recent work, The Bunny Boy, was designed with You Tube and other new media in mind, and it was stunningly creative for doing that--the album wasn't the center of the experience. The bigger impact, again as others have said, will be the notion that music is supposed to be free. When I speak with my students most of them already assume this is the case. The concept of paying for music seems absurd to them. This is when I feel dystopian and desperate. For everyone who wants to claim that myspace (or myface as Jeremy Clarkson nicely puts it) gets more musicians out there with greater, broader possibilities, I want to know how will these musicians be able to keep making music if no one is paying for it? The real potential here, in the not too distant future, is the end of the whole notion of the professional musician. Which is terribly sad to me, but, then again, that was a new idea that dawned in the 17th century. So perhaps we've just come to an end of a modern idea. Maybe this will all lead to everyone being a musician and no one being a star. Can't say I'm feeling terribly optimistic about it all, I must say. But, as the Firesign Theatre once (nearly) said, Everything I Know is Wrong. God, that was a long one!
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 12:25
All you are taking away from the gallery is a memory - the same memory you would take away from hearing a song on the radio, or listening to an album at a friends house.
Most obvious places to look for (try before you buy) streamed content is MySpace, LastFM and Spotify - or go to the band's websites and see where their streamed music is available. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 12:43
Nowadays I listen to music almost exclusively at the computer, through Winamp. Yet I also listen to whole albums most of the time. Listening to tracks instead of albums isn't something that was introduced with downloads ... back in the 1990s I did it all the time, that's what cassette recorders were made for!
We discussed this above ... the pictures on the album sleeves are also merely reproductions of the originals ... fakes, if you want. I don't ... to me the medium is irrelevant. Regardless of whether the picture is printed on paper or displayed on a computer screen, the real art is the painting itself. It's the same with music ... you can enjoy the art by listening to a mp3 file as much as by listening to a vinyl disc ... as long as you manage to realize that the content is more important than the medium. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 12:51
1. This is obviously a "half full / half empty" situation ... you can see it either way. 2. An advantage of the digital solution is that you can make backups. Not necessarily hard disks (they break easily) but memory cards or USB sticks. You can also encrypt them and carry them with you (I have one attached to my key ring) ... that way even if my apartment is pulverized, I still have my music. BTW: I already posted about the destruction of my vinyl collection by a leaking water pipe ... so much for scary dependencies. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Qboyy007
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 12:56
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Many of you bring up a lot of points, and for some genres I agree that bootlegging and downloading hurts ( Think Jazz or Classical, as they aren't the most popular of genres ). I still think that overrall illegal downloading benefits music. Let me make an example. You have this kid, lets name him Bob. Bob is say 15 or 16, and listens to all the mainstream junk. He buys all his favorite bands CDsOne day Bob hears Tool on the radio, and he instantly becomes infatuated with the band. A couple weeks after buying 10,000 Days Bob's ears are worn out. He yearns for something more, but with a limited selection of only four Tool albums, he doesn't have many options. So, Bob hops on his computer and begins his search for similar artists. It was at this point that . He hears of a program on the internet called "Limewire" and starts to illegally download music in the hope of finding something to satisfy his musical tastes. Over the next couple of months he begins to experiment, discovering The Mars Volta, King Crimson and even Devin Townsend. After a year or so Bob discovers torrents and rapidshare / mediafire, and his true ascendancy into musical enlightenment begins. He begins to download artists which at one point he never knew existed, obscure bands unknown to the rest of society. His tastes have developed into something he never could have foreseen as a young teen, he's come to enjoy the finer things in music, from ambient to shoegaze or even black metal. But one thing doesn't change, he still buys his favorite albums. He's still able to appreciate the music which he holds so dear to him, except that he's buying from genres that are obscenely obscure. He's able to respect the musicians which still bring him joy, even if he happened to disregard some of them. The point is that Bob would never have discovered those bands if it weren't for illegal downloading, he never would have bought that Porcupine Tree album if he hadn't bootlegged the other one first. He utilized bootlegging as a portal into a new realm of music. He may have downloaded some things which he wasn't supposed to, but in the end he still purchased his favorite music, which in the end evolved from terrible garbage like Disturbed to talented artists Absu or Intronaut. Only through the use of bootlegging can someone discover and love these bands. It helps educate people about those bands we never knew existed. It helps dispose of musical ignorance, and develops musical taste. People will always buy music, illegal downloading just allows people to buy music that they were once ignorant of. ------------- Hay Budday |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:03
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^ nice story, but today you can easily sample music legally ... you don't have to have unlimited access to full albums in order to find new music. I can't understand people who claim that they need to listen several times to an album before being able to decide whether to buy it or not. Hello? If the album is good enough to get you to listen to it several times, you should be decent enough to pay for it. When I want to check out an album, I usually go to a download store that has it and listen to the 30 sec samples. At Amazon MP3 you can listen to all of them consecutively, which in essence gives you a quick overview over the whole album. If I like what I hear, I buy/download the album or put it on my watchlist. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: The Sleepwalker
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:04
You might be right, but most kids that only listen mainstream don't buy CD's... In fact, only very few do. Many people also don't feel the need to spend money on an album, if they can also download it, whether it's for not caring about the artwork, or not having much money to spend. -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:05
That's an interesting observation that has been overlooked a little because the sequence of LP, compact cassette, CD haven't been a major format changes in quite the way 78 to LP was (after all an album is so called because originally it was an album of several individual 78s, like you would have an album of photographs) - in effect mp3's have gone back to the old format of wax-cylinders with only one song per package (even 78s had two sides) and the concept of "an album" is now purely abstract with some bands now proposing to digitally release a track a month rather than whole albums.
It could be that MP3s become become transitory, like text messages and emails, something people will hear once and save/delete - singles have always been like that to some degree - one hit wonders and only as good as your last hit syndrome, once the physical nature has been removed what is left of a single song other than occupying space on your iPod?
At last, someone who (like me) doesn't see this as some wonderful Utopia.
And where will this lead if not to a reduction of everyone to the same mediocre level of blandness, where everyone is "a bloody amateur" and the unique haecceity of any single artist is lost in the miasma? ... (of course good amateurs are always better than bad professionals, but in this vision of the future how can we tell what is good and what is bad?) ... ------------- What? |
Posted By: Qboyy007
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:15
Well look at this way. If there are any artists who don't need anymore money from CD sales its ones that are mainstream. I mean, the bigger an artists or band is the less they depend on CD sales. The biggest bands aren't rich from how much their album sells, they get money from touring or sponsors. As popularity rises, CD sales are really only useful in determining how popular a band or album is. ------------- Hay Budday |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:27
I know this is slightly off-topic, but it is related to some degree. The point I was making about reproductions of art not being the same as the real thing was about the limitations of the CYMK printing process that cannot capture the full colour spectrum of real life. This is also true of RGB monitors that also cannot replicate the full colour spectrum of real life. With a tube of Ultramarine Blue and a tube of Titanium White pigment paint I can in a single brush-stroke create an infinite blend of shades from one colour to the next - I cannot replicate that digitally - the RGB and CYMK colour systems will render that as 255 shades of blue and 1 of white. In fact the two systems even cannot replicate each others colours, it is impossible to print RED, BLUE and GREEN as you see them on the screen using a colour printer because those colours are out of gamut of the CYMK system. In this respect alone there is a difference between a printed album cover and/or CD booklet and a JPEG image (regardless of image resolution or compression ration - which incidentally produce highly visible artifacts even at low levels of compression)
So in the visual art analogy the medium is important, and this is why (for me) the medium is important in aural art - though the differences between digital and analogue are less apparent and practically impossible to quantify, they do exist. (However the differneces between recorded and real life are even greater )------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:33
But that is a close-loop feedback system that is self-sustaining - without CD sales the band would not be popular enough to attract large audiences and sponsorship deals. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Qboyy007
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:41
Try and imagine CD sales and downloading in the form of a graph. The two are linked in the sense that as Downloading (Legal or Illegal ) increases you'll also see CD sales rise, they are inherently linked. The more people that know about the band the better, and in today's technological age the best way to do that is the one-two punch of "Internet word of mouth" and bootlegging.
------------- Hay Budday |
Posted By: questionsneverknown
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:47
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Some of the most intelligent discussions that I've seen, from an artist's perspective, about the effect of MP3s and downloading on music has been from David Thomas of Pere Ubu. He's been going on about this for the past few years. Check out http://www.hearpen.com/index.html for some recent points (more on ubuprojex). Here are some quotations from the page: "What We Are: hearpen.com exists to sell soul. It's not merchandise. It's not content. It's called music." "How We Got To Where We Are Download audio has constricted the marketplace. We must find our proper niche. That niche will be the place where we can control our output and offer it on terms that we can live with. It is not possible to enter into a commercial contract without negotiating download rights. It is intensely frustrating to hear sound that we've spent months meticulously constructing being reduced to a dog's dinner with lousy encoding ratios. If it's going to be out there we want it reproduced in such a way as to adequately convey the meaning of the sound. So we'll do it ourselves." |
Posted By: Kim?
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:51
I don't think it's exactly the same. I'm walking on thin ice (of a new day) here, I don't know how to explain it. In some other artforms, the nuances and layers are more easily available than in music. I think you have percieved the painting quite fully if you've been to a gallery, whereas you haven't with a piece of music you've heard on the radio. To fully understand a song in its fullest potential, you need, (as opposed to for example a painting,)to endeepen yourself in it (plus the rest of the album, in some cases). Maybe?
In my opinion, this is not any good if it does not give me the whole album. I want the overall feel of an album. And also, what is the difference between me downloading an album, and then buying it, and me listening to some tracks on myspace the buying it, or the opposite. I've got the impression that the fact that it is illegal is just a dormant law, at least here in Norway. And as a way of boycotting the download culture, I think there is no point in doing that. It has come to stay, whether you like it or not. I just use it for what it's worth. It's all about enjoying art in the way that you like best. And, as Steve Hillage said, if the downloading make the labels collapse, in the long term it will cause the artists to establish new ways of communication and a more serious and intimate relationship with the people who listen to their music (through monitors, haha). There will always be a way. |
Posted By: questionsneverknown
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:56
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And, now slightly off topic (but not really): If anyone is interested, here's a link to another discussion by David Thomas about how the band Pere Ubu recently came up with their "corporate motto": ars longa, spectatores fugaces, or roughly, art is forever, audiences are temporary. This flies in the face of that other dimension of which downloadable culture is only a facet, the sentiment that the audience is more important than the artist, and that the artist is there only to serve the audience. See American or Pop Idol. See Time magazine putting a mirror on the cover for Person of the Year. If you read the last paragraph from this webpage you'll see why I strongly believe Thomas and Pere Ubu should be seriously considered for a place on this site.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:58
There is a line missing from your conceptual graph and that is the cost of production (i.e. recording, manufacture, distribution, promotion, feeding the band, paying the studio staff, buying equipment) - simply throwing mp3s at the internet will not magically create interest in an artist, all you think you are finding by "internet word of mouth" is artificially created by street teams and marketing specialists, all of whom take a cut of the bottom-line - all these people put a lot of effort into this to make it look like it blossomed spontaneously. ------------- What? |
Posted By: questionsneverknown
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 14:03
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[/QUOTE]
There is a line missing from your conceptual graph and that is the cost of production (i.e. recording, manufacture, distribution, promotion, feeding the band, paying the studio staff, buying equipment) - simply throwing mp3s at the internet will not magically create interest in an artist, all you think you are finding by "internet word of mouth" is artificially created by street teams and marketing specialists, all of whom take a cut of the bottom-line - all these people put a lot of effort into this to make it look like it blossomed spontaneously. [/QUOTE]
Exactly. Well put.
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Posted By: Qboyy007
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 14:11
I agree with you somewhat but I think that with today's technology, words and rumors spread like wild fire. Creating internet hype is absurdly easy, thus, it's much easier for a band in today's world to sell albums and make a profit. Cost of Production is always an issue, its just one that doesn't deserve as much attention as it used too, especially when you factor in the idea that some artists don't even use studio staffs, as availability to new technologies as increased, I mean Devendra Banhardt recorded his album in a damn log cabin.
------------- Hay Budday |
Posted By: sealchan
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 14:13
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...I skipped the middle pages on this thread...
I think that with the advent of music delivered digitally we will want to embrace that and solve the problems that this brings (particularly piracy). Anything that reduces physical resource consumption and material waste is probably a good thing, even a necessary thing.
Music came without art work for centuries so certainly it can be appreciated without it. But I also think that there is no reason to abandon it, only good reasons for cultivating it. As our media playing technology develops there should be room made for re-introducing the artwork and other types of information (song lyrics, musician and studio credits, etc) into the purchased song or album. Windows Media Player, as one of the commonly used programs to play digital music, needs to make improvements in facilitating this aspect. But an industry standard may need to be developed in order for Microsoft to put effort into this. In fact, with the transition of music to a digital format this should open up the range of visual art created for music to such things as simple animation and/or song queued galleries, etc. Again the players out there with any color graphics capability will need a standard set for doing this...perhaps, a knockdown or something derived from the DVD format which has its video and audio components.
Another development that I see as necessary in the various digital music players is that although randomization is valuable, there needs to be a way to serially link songs that are separate files but are meant to be heard one after another. That way we can listen to the "Abbey Road medley" properly and still have this come up as a "surprise" when we set our player to randomize songs. Again this would require a new industry standard for the digital music file. This feature might also help encourage artists to continue to compose music in collections (albums) rather than just single songs.
Probably there are already those out there advocating, developing and otherwise working on these new standards. Anyone hear know anything about this?
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 14:49
That's all true. But you personally have to make a choice whether this is an important issue and distracts you from enjoying the art, or whether you can simply ignore these distractions. I choose the latter. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 15:15
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Wow, I can't believe I've never saw this debate. My thoughts on downloading are actually NOT negative. I don't fileshare online much, but I don't see much of a problem with it anyway, being that you don't abuse it. Whenever I do burn a disc from a friend, if I like the album I almost always buy it. I don't use it as much more than a sampler. When I get an album from the library, I do burn myself a copy, but if I like it, I buy it and if I don't like it, I don't buy it. I only use stuff like this for sampling reasons, or for out-of-print albums. With that said, I only support it when it's not abused. There are so many people that will download everything and never buy it whether they like it or not. I have a problem with that. I don't have a problem ith people downloading an album and then buying it if they like it afterwards. Just my two cents. -Jeff ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Qboyy007
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 15:25
Yea, this brings up another question to ponder. Is borrowing a CD from a friend or family member also considered stealing? Its essentially the same thing as using a fileshare. Hell, one could argue that even youtubing music is the same as filesharing. ------------- Hay Budday |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 16:52
Yeah, it could be considered "stealing", but here's how I look at it; there are two types of people. People who love music and are dedicated to the bands they love, and people who like a song or two every now and again, but can really care less. The people who love music will usually buy the album after "stealing" it. If I like an album that I copy from a friend, I'll always buy it. The people who can care less, about music, well.... They aren't big consumers anyway. Who cares if they get a song every now and again? Also, these people are always buying from the big groups. The Jonas Brothers, Hannah Montana, and NSync don't need (or deserve) any more money than they already have, and these people are fare weathered fans anyway. Sure there are people that are exceptions, but that's how I look at it. -Jeff -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 17:45
All those "standards" are already existing and have been for some time now. ------------- What? |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 17:48
I do the same thing as you about buying albums - My friend burnt me a PROTEST THE HERO album, and I've since bought both of them and ordered their DVD. The thing is, the friend who burnt me the disc, had illegally downloaded that album. I don't download, unless its legal, and even then, usually only if its free. But some examples of downloading which were important to me are on the Marillion site - They offer free sample album MP3 or CD packages, and they'll even mail them to you for no cost whatsoever. This discourages illegal downloading, because you can get it for free, easier. I agree with what alot of people said about the natural progression of music storing media, although I think it'll be a sad day when CD's go out of production. -Joel -------------
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 17:50
Yeah that'll definitely suck. -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:05
Where did you get this information? Just look at the volume of bands on MySpace desperately trying to hype their music on us and see how many actually make it - if it was as easy as you say it is they'd all be selling CDs by the truckload. The ones that succeed are the ones with big money backing - name one truly independent unknown artist who has broken through by Internet Hype alone, then look to see what label they are signed to, and who owns that label.
Devendra Banhart is a LoFi artist with the corporate power of Warner Brothers behind him - he recorded in a log cabin through choice and I would imagine that the level of equipment used was still pretty expensive for all it's lofi-ness ------------- What? |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:09
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as quoted from Bob Lefsetz' lefsetz email newsletter of October 1,2009". this is his conclusion after a run through of the sales ending 09/27/09 (see the whole thing at : http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2009/10/01/sales-week-ending-92709/) "CONCLUSION No one seems to realize you can't get rich anymore. You can't sell enough albums, you can't sell enough high-priced tickets. The music industry is functioning like it's still the 1990s when a revolution has taken place. It's not about stopping P2P theft, that won't make album sales go up dramatically. The public just doesn't care. Who could, about manufactured crap or stuff that's too hip for almost anybody's room. And they may never care, not for years. So it's back to the bunker. Yes, you've got to be in it for the music. You've got to love to play. You can't want to become rich, because even a Top Forty hit generates little cash. It's about having a career. But those with careers are not flying private and buying Lamborghinis unless they made it in the seventies. And no one wants to overpay to see those dudes one more time. Major labels have fired the worker bees. It would be like Facebook being run by an overpaid Mark Zuckerberg, and him alone. But these big tech companies have tons of infrastructure. There's no infrastructure at a major anymore. And with a tech company it's all about scale. Can it grow? The majors are anti-scale. It's how can we cut enough overhead and get enough rights so we can still pay our presidents millions? This is a recipe for the future? And the formerly brain dead touring industry can't see there's a problem. Used to be the agents and promoters lived on the backs of the record companies. The labels spent to build stars that people wanted to see. Now, the labels don't have that kind of money, albums don't sell well enough, hell, they want some of that touring industry money themselves! So what does the touring industry do? Raise prices! But the audience has had enough. And they don't want to see new bands, why should they? It's more fun to play games on your iPhone, cruise for dates on Craigslist, which is positively free. If the money is coming back, music has to drive the culture. Going to the show must be a monthly occurrence, not a once a year event. Breaking bands takes a long time. Oh, you can try a short cut, with a hit single, but that doesn't generate a career. So, the turning point has come. Everybody in it for the money is experiencing his last hurrah. Finally, the stage is set for new players, doing it only for the music, to rebuild the industry. Because there's just not enough money in it for the old powers to continue to reign. And only interested in the biggest sellers, who don't sell crap anymore, they're leaving a ton of crumbs on the table. Majors should get out of new music production, they do it poorly, the risk to reward ratio is horrible. They should just be catalog houses. When will they admit this to themselves? Live Nation's problems are worse. There are no stars to fill their buildings. A merger with Ticketmaster brings talent, but does one expect Irving to just hand over acts on bad terms? And those ancient acts can't sell tickets like they used to. Holy f**k. While everybody's been focusing on people stealing the music, the whole business imploded. The album model has been destroyed. You're better off selling one hit single on iTunes and having no album! The concept of a hit driving fans to hear the other nine tracks is laughable. People know the rest is crap. They've learned this over decades. It will take years to convince them otherwise. But you've got to start with great music, that's the only way out of this. And there's just not enough of it. Because the industry is leaving the consumer out of the equation. Labels sell to radio and indies are so busy trying to look hip, most people don't pay attention. A sorry state of affairs, but not terminal. Just like Facebook eclipsed MySpace almost instantly, music could be revived again. But not by Rupert Murdoch and those f**ks at MySpace, they're too old wave, but by innovators. You might decry Twitter, but there's more action there than there is on this chart. Twitter is everything music used to be...immediate, thrilling, satisfying, educational...and you could be a part of it! Interscope doesn't care about fans, it cares about lifestyle, that of its executives, and the fans know it. I don't see Jimmy inviting Black Eyed Peas fans into the building to romp and participate. It's us versus them in the music business whereas online we're all in it together, the customer is truly king. History has wiped the landscape clean. We're at the dawn of a new age. Thank f**king god." ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: meatal
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:23
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This is a topic I've always wanted to see. And kudos to you people supporting bands by buying albums at a later date. I don't have a problem with some of the things related to MP-3 downloads, like out of print items, bootlegs (band isn't getting money for them anyway), but people downloading whole albums and then not buying it, not so cool. Great way on the net however for many band to get heard around the world whereas they couldn't before and buying MP-3 albums is a great cost effective idea. The concept stated here in a few posts saying you really need the feel of the whole album is true, especially in Prog (and related styles) because a lot of these artists whether it's a concept album or not, work on themes (musically and lyrically) that you can't sometimes get from one song. Now it's true many artists do it for the love of music first, but man, does it ever hurt the smaller bands when people just download it for free, sure recording costs have come way down over the years, but there still is costs: recording, mastering, artwork, for the smaller artists the manufacturing on their own, and whether you do it for the love of it or not TIME, to create the music and lyrics etc... Now whether or not the band is big or small shouldn't really matter if people buy it or not, because the bands/artists portion is always, always the smallest amount. IE: If you say designed a new toothbrush, invested your money on it, would you then (other than a few promos) manufacture it and give it away for free? Someone said to me "ya I download all my music for free but I might go to a show and that's paying for them", well, a lot of smaller artists can't come to your town especially independents because they aren't making enough money from the purchase of cd's to fund a tour. Keep in mind any money any band gets no matter how big, from a label to tour comes out of the bands pocket (nothing they get from a label is FREE) . Have I downloaded stuff on occassion, yes, I have their were a few albums I could just not find and get. (so I'm not trying to come across as someone who's never done it) Anyways, cool to see people who do support the artists in this digital age cause it ain't going away. Of course point to ponder is, if all of this downloading was around in the 60/70/80's, probably none of the bands Metallica, Yes, Led Zeppelin (the list is endless) would have become as big as they are now. I love a lot of bands, but c'mon, all of them of that time have released a stinker that you bought, but back then all you'd hear was a single (sometimes a station would play the whole thing on a release day), and people lined up at a record store to buy it. Off topic a bit: One last thing I find funny, I've been to quite a few artist signings (at a record store) and find it weird when some people would come in and tell the artist "I love your stuff, I downloaded all your albums" or "Can you sign this" (and it's a pirated item) and then of course I've seen some artists refuse to sign that stuff and seen the person later saying that the artist is a jerk for not signing it. ------------- The bitter harvest of a barren land, I'm painting pictures you don't understand. (Fates Warning) |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:25
I'm no expert on Norwegian law but I suggest you check first. I quick search on the internet has revieled that the Norwegian Copyright law clearly outlaws the illegal downloading of files. "The Norwegian Copyright Act determines what we can legally do with music, films, books, pictures and other so-called intellectual property. Let’s start with the easy bit. It is illegal to download and use music, films, books and pictures from the Internet without the permission of the owners of the material" - source: http://forbrukerportalen.no/Artikler/2006/1158924659.59 - http://forbrukerportalen.no/Artikler/2006/1158924659.59
or try this:
So the Norwegian Supreme Court says that even posting a link to an illegal download is illegal. That suggests that illegal downloading is far from being a dormant law in Norway.
------------- What? |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:26
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oh, I wonder if they had the internet back in the days when cars were introduced, whether the horse & carriage industry would have been indulging in the same forward looking complaining. Please, there is no time machine on the horizon. There are no arguements or words that will bring back massive album sales. No matter the morality or legal basis they stand on. And yes, to those who insist right is right, are you looking to be right or to be helpful ? I went to Frank's Music today. I bought the Drive-By Truckers new CD - the Fine Print - a compilation of out-takes from over their career. A band that has never had a gold album , even in their home country of the U.S. . Yet they're on their 10th release. Even financed their breakthrough album - Southern Rock Opera - by getting people to buy bonds with a guaranteed return of 6%. If the album did well, these people would be paid back from the sales revenue. If not, the band would get loans to pay them back. SO IQ guy , try and find an article where Patterson Hood or Mike Cooley complained about the lack of major label support or low CD sales. Their fanbase is willing to pay for their albums.We want the t-shirts, the hats, the special edition re-issue CDs. Because we're fans, not just casual listeners who are looking to throw $20 away. I thenspent some time looking through the CD racks. No sign of IQ. Marillion had about a dozen or so, their first two, and then a bunch of H era releases, including a few special editions. And more than a few other mid sized prog groups were in stock. But no PFM. Some VDGG. A lot of Floyd. A lot of Genesis, even Gabriel stuff. The complete series of Gentle Giant re-issues. So someone somewhere is buying those bands. But not IQ. I could find any number of obscure extreme metal bands, punk bands, country bands, and a good number of local indie acts, even about 50 or so Acadian artists. But no IQ. Saga's last DVD, I had to special order. I went to Spin-It. Their LP guy was in today going through boxes of used LPs they'd gotten in lately. There seems to be a good 50-60 good albums that come in each week, and most sell quickly. They also had some 20 new re-issue sealed LPs by acts like AC/DC, some cult punk bands that I don't know, a few classic era Jazz artists. All going for $20 plus dollars. These sell within a week or so, and the store does a good business in special orders for sealed re-issued LPs. They also sell local acts EP, LPs and CDs. According to the owner, Pat, some of these acts outsell a lot of the international acts. Now mind you , his clientele don't go there to buy the new Whitney Houston CD. But mainstream stuff, the top 40 of the day - nowhere to be found or gathering dust once it leaves the charts. 30-40 year old Rush, Yes, Pink Floyd , Zep, Sabbath Lps ... they sell for $4-10. And they sell. Well. SO ... is it that downloads are stealing sales, or just really that some musical acts just don't interest enough people, or have enough hard core fans that can be bothered to search & buy new albums ? 'Cause if it's the latter, which it is imho (and Bob's), then all this holier than thou preaching is wasting time and hurting acts that should be embracing the new reality, and also considering why they feel entitled to the riches of the old days ? You want to get paid, put out something that someone will pay for. Even if it is available somewhere for free. Some bands manage to do so. SO it's not exactly impossible, eh. Or , maybe some bands just don't have enough fans that can be bothered to do so. Oh well, now to listen to the two EPs from the Varsity Weirdos that I picked up today. The band is made up of two guys from Fear of Lipstick. Who took their name from a Bad Luck 13 song. Who are a Moncton Punk legend from the early 90s. There is a demand for a compilation CD. But the band members aren't interested in taking up the job. But the fans all have the original EPs. And will gladly make a CD copy for those who don't have them. Which the band is O.K. with. 'Cause they have day jobs and are happy to have their music still appreciated. 'Cause ... they were in it because they had fun making music they loved. And made a little money at the same time ... ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:34
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I love how just believing people should pay for what they take is "holier than thou" to you Claude. Fantastic |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:39
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I still pay for my Cable TV bill too.....I'm a sucker, I should figure out how to pirate that with some illegal device I can buy on the internet, right Claude? Cause those big bad TV productions companies don't really deserve to be paid what they charge.... |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:41
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Steve Wilson's bitterness about downloading really irritates me. The Wall starts off pretty strongly, if one is really bored by In the Flesh then one probably shouldn't waste time with the rest of the album, it isn't even very good...
Finn, you shouldn't have cable, really. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:52
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Claude, you won't find IQ in the bricks and mortar record stores because they are signed to Inside/out, whose distributor and owner, SPV, filed for insolvency in May of this year - while that does not mean the company has folded, it does mean that its operations have been scaled down. Inside/Out have now agreed a partnership with Century Media and will be distributed world-wide through EMI - it will take a while for this new deal to filter down and for product to start moving again.
------------- What? |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:53
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I don't Henry Just an appropriate analogy. If I don't pay for my music, why should I pay for my TV if I possess the knowledge to pirate it? Don't like the Wall, eh? Hmmmm....gonna have to work on you about that  |
Posted By: meatal
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:57
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Hey for some bands/ artists it might be flattering for them that people even care to download it. It is a great vehicle to get people to hear you. Also I was thinking, every time I go to a restaurant and finish eating a meal and then think the meal was not good or just OK, should I pay for it??? ------------- The bitter harvest of a barren land, I'm painting pictures you don't understand. (Fates Warning) |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:58
The return argument given there is that if you didn't like it, why did you eat it? ------------- What? |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 19:05
If they feel that way, and many do offer free downloads on their sites, that's wonderful. But if the band is charging a fee, that should be respected by music fans. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 19:24
But now we're back to the eternal piracy debate. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 19:27
...and that discussion never goes anywhere, so there's no real gain in pursuing it. ------------- What? |
Posted By: meatal
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 19:28
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True the actual downloading incurs no cost, but the music cost something to make. ------------- The bitter harvest of a barren land, I'm painting pictures you don't understand. (Fates Warning) |
Posted By: MaxerJ
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 20:03
I feel like i just read something of... infinite value to my life, but it just can't seem to think hard enough to find out what that value is... could someone explain what he just said? ------------- Godspeed, You Bolero Enthusiasts 'Prog is all about leaving home...' - Moshkito
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Posted By: MaxerJ
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 20:08
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Oh and as a side note, a uni lecturer i know was telling me about the theories behind digitizing rays, a.k.a a machine to turn digital material into physical material. She thinks -and i'm inclined to agree with her - that if such a device was ever made, it would mean the end of capitalism/the WORLD. Think about it: why work when you could download a pizza for free off the net? Or a Lamborghini? It's related to the topic because... this could be the breakdown of the music industry some of these posters seem to be waiting for ------------- Godspeed, You Bolero Enthusiasts 'Prog is all about leaving home...' - Moshkito
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Posted By: Qboyy007
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 21:37
You'll cringe, but Hollywood Undead  . The amount of bands on myspace is near ridiculous, but we never would have heard of them or listened to them if it weren't for the ability to go on the internet. Its the beauty of technology, it allows us to discover things we previously wouldn't have gotten the chance to experience. Thats why I think people should embrace file sharing (or just the increased usage of the internet in general), it allows users to expand their possibilities to so much more than Disturbed and Jonas Brothers. ------------- Hay Budday |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: October 02 2009 at 00:05
Sorry to get side tracked but wouldn't that just make ISPs charge outrageous prices and limit internet use? But then people could go to McDonalds or Starbucks for free wifi, but they would be closed because people would be dling they goods for free instead of buying them. Hmm, interesting. |
Posted By: tworoads
Date Posted: October 02 2009 at 01:46
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i want to say a big thank you to everyone who has posted comments on this thread,it has been a very interesting read and it is good to see so many people so passionate about their music and beliefs. It has certainly brought up quite a few things that i had never even considered before,and created quite a balanced argument i think in the end. thanks adrian (todds) www.progboys.com |