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Topic ClosedJohn Coltrane for Jazz Fusion?
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CPicard View Drop Down
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Points: 10841 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2009 at 09:35
Coltrane.
Yes, of course.

Guys, drop the pot.
As if the presences of Miles Davis or John Zorn weren't controversial enough, some of you plan to include a (great) musician who NEVER had any connection with the rock music scene?
He may have influenced some rock musicians, but he never crossed the line. I wonder if he would have even crossed it if he lived a bit longer.
I think the choice of artists to include into PA should be 'restricted' to artists or bands belonging to the rock scene. As an example, I can understand the inclusion of Zorn's Naked City, but not Masada or his other Jazz and Free Jazz bands.
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Points: 7826 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2009 at 16:14
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

^ And the next step will be to add Bach, Vivaldi, Wagner etc. Smile



Nope. That's proto-proto-proto prog.Tongue

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Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2009 at 23:58
Rocktopus, I wasn't being serious about Albert Ayler. ;-)
 
Masada may not have as much to do with rock as Naked City and Six Litanies for Helioglabus, but it's still John Zorn so we have to add them. And I don't think Miles was all that controversial except for the problem of how to review an album like Kind of Blue.
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Points: 8138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2009 at 02:27
Originally posted by progrocker2244 progrocker2244 wrote:

Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

^ And the next step will be to add Bach, Vivaldi, Wagner etc. Smile



Nope. That's proto-proto-proto prog.Tongue
 
This is commonly called "classical music" Wink http://www.classicalarchives.com/ more than 7800 artists to add if you want to compete with them !
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Points: 1336 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2009 at 21:45
A position a little far from Prog Rock might include the album by which Coltrane participated and the album, etc. that he announced in the fall of life if it thinks about the overall music though it might be certainly related. However, I like performance of Coltrane.
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Points: 900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2009 at 22:07
I can see why he wouldn't be included because, unlike Herbie Hancock and Miles Davis, there's never any rock or fusion in his music. However, as far as any musician goes, he was a greatly progressive mastermind.

His late era stuff is wonderful. Put him in, I'll review a few. Or we could just link to JazzArchives.
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Points: 10964 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2009 at 23:37
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by lucas lucas wrote:

Which jazz artist didn't play jazz-fusion in the seventies ?

I think we should consider creating a separate website called JazzArchives...


deja vu --
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50964




ah yes Clap

never went through with that....
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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2009 at 05:38
Originally posted by progrocker2244 progrocker2244 wrote:

In terms of my proto prog comment, it's not because he's similar to The Who, The Beatles, Iron Butterfly, etc., but because it influenced prog before it existed. Maybe we should have a new genre like proto-proto-progBig smile


I understood that, I just examplified how absurd that way of thinking is. While were at it, why not make complete fools of ourself and add Karlheinz Stockhausen and Bela Bartok in proto prog too?

Now the experts of 20th century avantgarde have to rewrite history, because most of them were actually protoprog.

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Rocktopus, I wasn't being serious about Albert Ayler. ;-)


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Points: 7826 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2009 at 16:34
I was joking about the proto prog comment, RocktopusWink

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Points: 3596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2009 at 17:02
The big qualification for prog rock is the rock aspect. Davis got in because of his jazz rock / fusion releases.
That he is a big influence on prog rock just based on his more "traditional" jazz output is was not even considered.
After all, Rocktopus' point about composers being candidates is a good example as to what would be involved in including a musical act or artist based on their influence.
Or to take a side trip - Robert Johnson was a big influence on much of what is called "classic rock". But he is a blues musician. Not a rocker. Of course, the thing is that the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame is run by David Fricke and a bunch of others who can't stop wanting to add a sheen of artistic merit & cultural heft to the place that is supposed to worship a music that was for a long time the "anti-thesis" of all that academic clique.
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2009 at 19:52

progrocker2244 i see that you recently put controversial additions (Metallica), instead of other great prog groups.

The rules by the PA book says that the Coltrane adittion must do a special collab and evaluate the admin team.
 
So, you are not a SC so we can wait to some SC do the proposal.
 
 




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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2009 at 19:53
Any contenders, Lucas for example?Wink




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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2009 at 04:20
Originally posted by progrocker2244 progrocker2244 wrote:

I was joking about the proto prog comment, RocktopusWink


Originally posted by progrocker2244 progrocker2244 wrote:



Albums like Blue Train with the extended improvisation scream Jazz Fusion to me, just like Miles Davis' Kind of Blue.



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Points: 7826 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2009 at 08:16
Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

Originally posted by progrocker2244 progrocker2244 wrote:

I was joking about the proto prog comment, RocktopusWink


Originally posted by progrocker2244 progrocker2244 wrote:



Albums like Blue Train with the extended improvisation scream Jazz Fusion to me, just like Miles Davis' Kind of Blue.



Is this also a joke?


If Kind of Blue is considered Jazz/Rock Fusion (and a highly acclaimed album in the genre), Blue Train should be considered jazz fusion as well IMO.

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Points: 10672 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2009 at 08:20
^ please read the previous posts, Miles isn't here because of Kind of Blue (which is a jazz record that is included because it is part of the full Miles discography). He's here because of progressive avant psychedelic ROCK records like Agharta, Big Fun, Get Up With It, Dark Magus etc.

Edited by Easy Money - July 16 2009 at 17:04
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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2009 at 16:53
Originally posted by progrocker2244 progrocker2244 wrote:


Albums like Blue Train with the extended improvisation scream Jazz Fusion to me, just like Miles Davis' Kind of Blue.

Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:


Is this also a joke?

Originally posted by progrocker2244 progrocker2244 wrote:


If Kind of Blue is considered Jazz/Rock Fusion (and a highly acclaimed album in the genre), Blue Train should be considered jazz fusion as well IMO.


I's sorry, but have you ever actually listened to Kind of Blue, or did you just look at the Jazzrock/Fusion section here? Its  highly acclaimed, but certainly not as a jazzrock/fusion album. That's just a PA flaw.
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Points: 3596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2009 at 18:25
R, it's not a flaw. It's in keeping with PA's policy of including a musician's entire discography once they are added to our database. This was put in place fully aware of what could happen with some (heck many) prog acts that have had a lasting career. The one shot wonders, on the other hand, could rest easy in purity with their sole shot at putting out a record. 
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Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2009 at 19:04
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

R, it's not a flaw. It's in keeping with PA's policy of including a musician's entire discography once they are added to our database. This was put in place fully aware of what could happen with some (heck many) prog acts that have had a lasting career. The one shot wonders, on the other hand, could rest easy in purity with their sole shot at putting out a record. 
It's a flaw in the sense that it causes confusion. Although have to question if he's heard Kind of Blue all the way through, because not hearing it is the only way I could imagine one would think it's Fusion.
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Points: 65523 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2009 at 19:24
debrewguy;  very well articulated

Henry P;  I agree Kind of Blue is not Fusion, progressive jazz maybe, but it raises interesting points; if someone who's not heard KoB assumes it is a true Fusion album rather than just the typical 'fusions' jazz tended to explore and then discovers it isn't, I suggest 1: it is a learning experience, and 2: a complete discography would be expected in an archives that strives to be complete and accurate, and that Davis' non-Fusion work is in fact significant from a historical perspective relative to JR/F

other than that I got nothin






Edited by Atavachron - July 16 2009 at 22:52
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Points: 10672 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2009 at 00:20
Kind of Blue is a major stepping stone towards jazz fusion, plus the style of modal jazz (static chord change, steady groove) emphasized here is the style of jazz favored by most 60s-70s prog rockers when they do that 'jazz section' in the middle of a long 'art-rock suite'. The other big influence on prog-rock 'jazz sections' is some of Jimmy Smith's more high energy output.

Still it's Miles'many psychedelic rock records that got him a place on PA.

Edited by Easy Money - July 17 2009 at 00:21
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