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J-Man 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: August 07 2008 Location: Philadelphia,PA Status: Offline Points: 7826 |
 Topic: John Coltrane for Jazz Fusion?Posted: July 10 2009 at 20:47 |
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Alright, we have (and have had) Miles Davis on the archives for a while now, but where's Coltrane?
Albums like Blue Train with the extended improvisation scream Jazz Fusion to me, just like Miles Davis' Kind of Blue. Just a suggestion.... |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group 
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 36859 |
Posted: July 10 2009 at 21:01 |
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Miles Davis didn't get in for Kind of Blue. It was his Jazz/Rock of later albums, such as Bitches Brew that got him in. Remember, it's not just about jazz fusion, it should be jazz-rock fusion. I love Coltrane's music, and do have the desire to eventually see him in here (perhaps in a special non-rock Prog category for artists who influenced prog artists, and has connections with prog) , but I don't think at this stage this site is ready for it yet. He's a progressive jazz artist, but I don't see him as a progressive jazz-rock artist.
Incidentally, we had another discussion on it here: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50964 |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: July 10 2009 at 21:04 |
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Still, we have Proto-Prog and Prog-Related, maybe we could open up a Jazz section...
 Kind Of Blue really screams Jazz to me.  Edited by Slartibartfast - July 10 2009 at 21:05 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
Posted: July 10 2009 at 21:05 |
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Coltrane is more progressive than at least 3/4 of the artists here, but he doesn't have much to do with prog besides Christian Vander's fanboyism.
Edited by Henry Plainview - July 10 2009 at 21:06 |
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65523 |
Posted: July 10 2009 at 21:10 |
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I guess I'd start by saying there is a difference between the modern jazz/progressive jazz of Coltrane and the Fusion ('jazz fusion') of Miles Davis.. modern jazz by it's nature was spontaneously progressive and, at times, progressive as a movement in say Brubeck, Schuller, Giuffre, three artists whose work was as or more progressive than John Coltrane's.. Coltrane may have been a progressive player, but the bulk of his work never really got into 'fusion' as we understand it, a certainly not a fusion of Jazz and Rock
just my opinion of course |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 36859 |
Posted: July 10 2009 at 21:31 |
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Never-the-less, I know that I'd be delighted to one day discover that John Coltrane and Ornette Coleman had been added.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
Posted: July 10 2009 at 21:39 |
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I've been pushing for Albert Ayler personally. He recorded fusion right before he died! |
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008 Location: Philadelphia,PA Status: Offline Points: 7826 |
Posted: July 10 2009 at 21:49 |
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If anything, I think 'Trane's influence on certain subgenres of prog is undeniable. Would proto-prog make sense?
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 36859 |
Posted: July 10 2009 at 22:04 |
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^^Albert Ayler is very good!
^ I don't really see Coltrane in proto-prog because he was not really a proto-progressive jazz-rock artist. It's true that he's influenced many in Prog (far more than Vander). But speaking of Vander, I've also long wished for another of his influences to be in: Stockhausen. Edited by Logan - July 10 2009 at 22:05 |
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Stooge
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 09 2009 Location: Toronto, Canada Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
Posted: July 10 2009 at 22:34 |
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Proto-fusion would be more appropriate
, but sticking to current genre catgories I see no room for 'Trane on PA.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10672 |
Posted: July 10 2009 at 23:44 |
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The big difference between Coltrane and Miles is that Miles made a lot of progressive avant psychedelic ROCK records (Agharta, Big Fun etc). Coltrane never did that. Our Jazz Rock section still maintains a relationship with Progressive Rock and it's many roots and branches.
When it looks like the site's definition of what falls under the large umbrella of related to progressive rock has expanded that far, then Coltrane may be added, but by then I would also expect to see Bob Dylan, The Beach Boys and Stevie Wonder as well. Before we even think of expanding to Coltrane, Ornette Coleman would come first because of his several progressive jazz rock records and big influence on Crimson, Gentle Giant, Henry Cow etc. Edited by Easy Money - July 10 2009 at 23:47 |
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 4202 |
Posted: July 11 2009 at 00:50 |
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Proto Prog are 60's artists like Deep Purple, The Who, The Doors, Jefferson Airplane, Beatles, Vanilla Fudge and
of course: John Coltrane!
It makes no sense, and it would be an embarrassing insult to a musical genius. I also think Ornette Coleman and Albert Ayler don't fit Jazzrock-fusion at all, but maybe I'm wrong. The 70's Coleman I've heard is still mainly free jazz/avantgarde, but sometimes with guitars. And Ayler recorded with rockartists, but atleast on Music Is The Healing Force Of The Universe, its simply a terrible bluesjam. If I heard some band playing Drudgery in a bar, I would leave the place (even if I just ordered my drink). Do we really want these avantgarde jazz artists that simply don't belong here, so bad? Is any illplaced guitartwang or just a couple of recorded tracks with a dull, stomping rockdrum right before they died or went back to the style they were known for, is enough to consider them? However Jeremy Stieg, Wayne Shorter, Mal Waldron, Herbie Mann, William S Fischer, Masabuma Kikuchi, Eddie Henderson, Donald Byrd, Julian Priester, Joachim Kuhn mm.. (successfully) recorded several jazzrockfusion albums during late 60's - early 70's, comparable to early 70's Terje Rypdal, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock and many other artists included for the right reasons. |
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10672 |
Posted: July 11 2009 at 03:14 |
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^ Ornette's invovement with jazz rock was far more than fleeting, but still, I don't see him coming on PA anytime soon. Of the artists you mention, look for Priester and Shorter soon, maybe some of the others. Unfortunately the Eddie Henderson discography carries a little too much filler for now.
Re Drudgery, I love that song, so raw and obtuse, a real one of a kind, but I doubt you'll ever see it on PA. Edited by Easy Money - July 11 2009 at 03:14 |
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lucas
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 06 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 8138 |
Posted: July 11 2009 at 03:42 |
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Which jazz artist didn't play jazz-fusion in the seventies ? I think we should consider creating a separate website called JazzArchives...
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 4202 |
Posted: July 11 2009 at 03:45 |
Ok, so you love it, but one of a kind? |
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65523 |
Posted: July 11 2009 at 04:16 |
deja vu -- http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50964 |
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clarke2001
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 14 2006 Location: Croatia Status: Offline Points: 4160 |
Posted: July 11 2009 at 04:22 |
The Shorter as in Wayne Shorter? Woo-hoo!!  |
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008 Location: Philadelphia,PA Status: Offline Points: 7826 |
Posted: July 11 2009 at 07:28 |
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In terms of my proto prog comment, it's not because he's similar to The Who, The Beatles, Iron Butterfly, etc., but because it influenced prog before it existed. Maybe we should have a new genre like proto-proto-prog
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NotAProghead
Special Collaborator
Errors & Omissions Team Joined: October 22 2005 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 7909 |
Posted: July 11 2009 at 09:24 |
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^ And the next step will be to add Bach, Vivaldi, Wagner etc.
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
Posted: July 11 2009 at 09:33 |
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... and then we'll get where we actually wanted to arrive: at the Gregorian Chant
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John Coltrane for Jazz Fusion?
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Slartibartfast wrote: