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Alberto Muñoz 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: July 26 2006 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 3577 |
 Posted: July 05 2009 at 08:27 |
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oh god i never beleive that this kind of monster discussion will go back
Some admin, please stop this cryme, Metallica is here for better or worse, case closed, move on, move on. |
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Transgressor
Forum Newbie 
Joined: July 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 10:34 |
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Again: and Megadeth? Are they more proggy than Metallica or not? (If your anwer is not your lying or you simply don't know who Megadeth is). When Killing is my business...and business is good! (1985- the first Megadeth record) came out they were called a Technical Thrash Metal band. They were more technical and prog than every band in the all Thrash metal era EXCEPT WacthTower (we are talking of 1985) prior to Voivod (there were raw at times) and other technical bands that would later come. Peace Sells...But who's buying?,same years as Master, is unquestionably more prog than Metallica's album and was a milestone for the techno metal movement. Rust in peace...it's a totally prog-thrash album and I think that is a influence for many other prog metal group. So...What're we talking about? Metallica WAS NOT the only one who "produced proggy materials" at times, but there were bands like Megadeth there were more important for technical and prog music. So I repeat the question: why Metallica and not Megadeth or Coroner (or others more proggy and more important for techincal and prog metal music than Metallica)? I don't like all the "prog related" thing! But It's and injustice introduce here Metallica and take away bands like Megadeth (to name only them). I know that I'm boring but I'm a big fan of technical metal music and i'm very into its historical thing... Metallica was not so important for technical metal or they were certainly less important than such bands as Megadeth and WacthTower (and others). It's a fact. Prog metal is not only Dream Theater (that were certainly affected a lot by Metallica....but also, a bit, by Megadeth). |
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Windhawk
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 28 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 11401 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 10:48 |
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As far as I'm concerned, neither Megadeth nor Coroner have the mix of progressive elements in their music AND the massive influence on the creation and evolvement of a purebred progressive genre that Metallica had.
Megadeth and Coroner may have had more of an influence on later sub-genres within progressive metal, but neither served as instigators and/or major influences to the creation of a completely new progressive genre. That's my personal view though - what the prog metal team and admin team feels about the issue I can't vouch for. |
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Websites I work with:
http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10617 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 10:55 |
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I used to listen to the first 2 Megadeth albums way back when, I know what you are talking about. The best thing for you and JJ to do is go straight to the prog metal team or thread and make your case for Megadeth and see what the team says. Most bands get on here by their own merit, comparing Megadeath's inclusion to Metallica will not help them. You must be able to discuss Megadeth's qualifications as they stand alone. Edited by Easy Money - July 05 2009 at 10:59 |
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 11:19 |
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Exactly. I think that the worst thing about the proto/prog-related categories is that people who visit the archives see a band like Metallica listed (for example, they see a review for a Metallica album on the front page) and they deduce "At Progarchives they think that Metallica are a prog band". It's important to emphasize that the bands listed in these categories are not really considered to be prog bands. They are here because there is some relation between them and the prog movement or other, fully-fledged prog bands. BTW: I think that M@x could still make more efforts to make this more obvious to the visitors ... the fact that people keep posting comments that show that they don't understand this suggests to me that something should be done about it.  |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 11:24 |
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I give all the credit to the Administratrs and you know that Dean, but the problem is that using this argument in the simplest form "Proto Prog and Prog Related are not Prog", is misleading and dangerous......How many proibklems couuld have been avoided if the real definition had been used complete and not reduced to the simple "Is not Prog?"
How many bands like the already mentioned or even Dire Straits wouldn't had been suggested and 15 pages of debate avoided is simply placed some limits and not left totally open.
Not 100% Prog, but in order to be Prog Related and Protoi Prog, needs to exist a clear connection abd at least some elements.
Now Olav: I won't reply your long post,, because I'm simply giving my opinion and I'm think I'm entitled to that, again as I said to Theo, if you agree it's ok with me, if you don't agree, I care very little.
I have never disrespected M@X or any admministrator, as a fact yesterday, I been talking with M@X about other issues of the forum and he didn't even said a word about being offended.
I told him more than once that I believe accepting A or B and into Prog Archives is a mistake and he accepted my opinion (Even agreed about a determined band, but they were already added so nothing could be done).
No admistrator has said I disrespected them, they know me and know I'm incapable of that, but I say the things I believe in loud and clear, I don't hide anything and some people don't like that (Not talking about the administrators or M@X ) ...So don't try to be more papist than the Pope.
Iván
Edit, I will only copmment two things you said Olav:
I always get informed before commenting, they were suggested for PR before.
And not the only one time
That's a fallacy and I guess you know it, as any person who has been in a forum before...We have 20,000 members, but really not more than 1 or 2 hundreed at the most are active and participate, most have joined and never entered to a thread or came here one or two times before leaving.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 05 2009 at 16:01 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 11:45 |
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Suggestions are not a problem - people are free to suggest who they want. Special Collabs are the only people allowed to put forward bands for Prog Related and Proto Prog and the Admins are the final arbitrators. That filtering-system is enough to remove the nonsensical suggestions - a band that makes it through that does so on their own merit.
The wording of the definitions does not prevent people from suggestiong non-Prog bands for 100% pure Prog categories, it happens all the time (even in Symphonic) - people still use their own definition of what prog is when making suggestions - and that is a good-thing because they may have seen something we have missed, since we are not experts on every album by every band. Looking through the ProgFreak PA chart shows many rejected bands that were suggested for 100% Prog categories.
And as I said, the proposing SC should have made that connection and the Admins will decide whether it is valid. If the connection is not there then the SC should not propose the band, regardless of the undercurrent of feeling from the membership, the SC must believe that connection is there.
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What?
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 12:24 |
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and Genesis started out as a pop band. They also had a string of "pop" albums to end their career. Gentle Giant morphed from Simon Dupree & the Big Beat. They also finished up their career with albums that some consider less than progressive. Rush was heavy Zep/Sabbath-like band on their debut. Harmonium was called a francophone America when their first album came out. Some of the prog folk acts started out with releases with little or no prog to them. And it's not that rare that some lesser known heavy prog acts initially put out basic hard rock albums to begin with, or even the reverse - a few prog albums, then down to basics. And Master of Puppets & And Justice for All are prog. Do you remember quotes like " Metallica doesn't seem to want to stick with just one riff through a whole song. A song might have 4-5 great riffs that could be developed further". And these two albums are full of tempo & time shifts. But they're damned because of loud guitars & mostly COMMERCIAL SUCCESS. This isn't Motorhead. This isn't AC/DC. Even Maiden & Judas Priest never put out something as complex as these two albums. Heck, add Comus, Renaissance, Strawbs, and many others and Metallica put out more prog on just those two albums than many here. Again, COMMERCIAL SUCCESS is the easiest & biggest reason when it comes to such groups being slammed as not prog. Because everyone thinks they know the music. And as far as fans chiming in & agreeing with the nay-sayers ... well, now, I can mention a few of my favourites that make me wonder how close they are to true prog. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 12:28 |
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I think the intent was to provide a very succinct defense of Metallica's music. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: November 18 2007 Status: Offline Points: 4900 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 12:45 |
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Why is this even an issue anymore? They are here, now. Drop it, folks.
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Pekka
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 03 2006 Location: Espoo, Finland Status: Offline Points: 6442 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 12:49 |
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Just as debrewguy well said what I was going to, by that logic Genesis is and always was a pop band, Rush are a bunch of kids trying their best to imitate Zeppelin and so on. By that same logic I'm a punk musician because the first song I wrote years ago was somewhat punky. Nevermind the fact that I've got some weird 7-13 minute songs under construction at the moment. They're punk metal because my first song was. I pretty much agree with Lars on the Thrash Metal definition and understand judging by their music why he would make that kind of a statement at that point of time.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 13:08 |
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We should try to make it more obvious to visitors that their being here does not mean that the admins and collabs of PA think that they're a prog band. |
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 13:20 |
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DB's series of slightly coherent replies divided into smaller bite sized chunks of pseudo wisdom
part 2) if x is here why not Y ? Well now, if you believe so, you are free to make the arguement for their inclusion. In extreme cases, yes, M@x may intervene if the right case if made. That happens. If the only info given is "I think they're prog, so they are", then don't be surprised that your suggestion is refused. And while Megadeth has been turned down, if you're determined to get them in, go over the previous threads, see if you present a stronger case for their admittance. It happens, you know. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 13:24 |
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DB's series of slightly coherent replies divided into smaller bite sized chunks of pseudo wisdom
part 1) - JJletho& Transgressor - Genesis were initially offered a record contract as a way to highlight their songwriting, which some felt might be saleable. The Beatles were a straight up Pop / Rock N Roll band when they started. Rush were a heavy blues act. The Strawbs were folk, not prog folk, folk. Bluegrass even, at their very beginning (the strawberry hill boys). Early Jetho Tull were folk / blues influenced. Many an RPI band has an anthology of early releases where they were essentially "pop" bands. Moody Blues - Go Now, anyone ? Harmonium - a francophone America ? Voivod's first two releases made Metallica's Kill 'Em All sound like Dream Theater. Inclusion in any genre at PA is based on more than your origins. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 13:25 |
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DB's series of slightly coherent replies divided into smaller bite sized chunks of pseudo wisdom
part 3) Ivan - a } you lose the respect you have gained here when you make statements like - "Metallica was added because of preasure of a group of members against the opinion of the vast majority, this poll proves it, that ended convincing the owner who was against the inclusion." And you know damn well (how many damn wells so far ? ) that others here still have to work with you, and are willing to overlook many things to get a job done right. So don't assume that others weren't offended just 'because they didn't tell you so. Your presence is usually helpful towards PA's goals. Your comments haven't always been. b} You know damn well that some very deserving acts have gotten in when higher ranking members have been able to present a strong enough case that was able to overcome any reservations other collabs / admin / reviewers or even M@x may have had. You've always been very clear in stating that some "experts'" opinion should hold more weight than other less "knowledgeable" members. So please, if you say you let lost battles be, then let them be. The picture others are painting of this recurring behaviour of yours is spot on. Words mean less than the actual example. c} And you also know damn well that it was felt that prog related was the best compromise available to bring an end to an interminable debate. Prog metal is where they belong, but we'd still be fighting over Metallica, eh. Oops, we still are ! d} And Ivan - you cannot claim to say you've shown no disrespect after your comment - "Metallica was added because of preasure of a group of members against the opinion of the vast majority, this poll proves it, that ended convincing the owner who was against the inclusion." You either have little respect for M@x or the people who came up with a strong enough case to change M@x's mind. And that is a right that everyone has - to change their mind if a sufficient case is made to do so. The legal process calls this an appeal. Which does on occasion bring about a change in a verdict, right ? e} You also know damn well (that'stoo many damn wells so far) that not every band that is in has gotten a majority vote in general polls, nor even in the final decision by admins. And you also know damn well that some additions were not always supported by a majority of collabs outside the genre team responsible, O.K. . They are given the authority to decide by themselves, but that doesn't mean they need ( and they don't) a majority from the rest of us. Just as our Symphonic team is given the job of deciding who gets in. But admin & M@x have the right to override us. And I have no problem with that. I may not agree with it. But that is their position in the hierarchy and they handle that responsibility quite well , thank you very damn well. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 13:26 |
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DB's series of slightly coherent replies divided into smaller bite sized chunks of pseudo wisdom
part 4) Progkidjoe - Metallica has been judged by PA to be prog. They're in. end of discussion. I await your refusal to believe your own words work any better against you. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 13:27 |
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DB's series of slightly coherent replies divided into smaller bite sized chunks of pseudo wisdom 5) I believe there is some merit to Megadeth, Toto, and Dire Straits' candidacies. I also believe that there hasn't been sufficient "proof" brought forward to justify their admission at this time, whether in a full blown prog genre or prog related or proto prog or whatever. And possibly ever. Again, the case hasn't been made yet. So please people, Metallica was admitted after much debate, and made it in based on a very considered presentation supporting their inclusion. M@x didn't bow to pressure, a secret society of collabs or admins did not conspire to slip them in based on their personal tastes. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 13:28 |
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P.S. if someone checks out PA because Metallica is on here, I doubt
that it's going to be their first time reading or hearing about the
band. I, for one, don't buy albums from bands just because they're
listed at PA. And if someone did buy, say , Master of Puppets because
it's here, well ... what's wrong with that ? Would you have a problem
with their purchase of Abacab or Citizen ?
And for those worry warts who fear for our reputation, I suggest you give some time to seriously think about this "reputation". Then read the main page's "about PA" bit. Then consider whether any music site of any genre, anywhere on the web is in complete agreement on everything other sites declare about said genre or music. I mean, who are these people who don't "respect" us ? Is there a reason for us to care ? Would they really their opinion of us just because we did things your way ? |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Transgressor
Forum Newbie
Joined: July 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 14:43 |
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Ah-ehm...NO!!! There are only some prog influences in ...and justice for all (and we can count maybe master of puppets) In techincal metal Metallica were followers not leaders. (I consider Master and justice two metal masterpiece eh...so it's not about likes and dislikes) Here is a list in cronological order of the most important album of the eighties about prog and technical metal (I've focused on technical thrash listing to see that techno thrash was a movement that doesn't belong to or start with Metallica) 1985 "Killing is my business..."- Megadeth (thrash with tech elements and prog elements) "Energetic Disassembly" WatchTower (the first techincal metal album) "The Spectre within"- Fates Warning (Heavy/Power with prog elements) 1986 "Baptism under fire "- Juggernaut (prog-thrash) "Peace Sells..." Megadeth (thrash with tech elements and prog elements) "Awaken the Guardian"- Fates Warning (Heavy/Power with more and more prog elements) "Somewhere in time"- Iron Maiden (Heavy with some prog elements) "Rage for Order" Queensryche (Heavy that has influenced prog) (Master of puppets) 1987 "RIP"- Coroner (thrash with high tech elements) "Killing Technology"- Voivod (thrash with high tech elements) "Mekong Delta- Mekong Delta (prog-thrash) "Trouble within"- Juggernaut (prog-thrash) "Into THe Pandemonium" Celtic Frost (it was called Avantgarde Metal) 1988 "The Music of Erich Zann"- Mekong Delta (prog-thrash) "Operation:Mindcrime" Queensryche (Heavy, very important for prog) "Life's cycle"- Sieges Even (Technical metal) "So far, So good...So what!"- Megadeth (thrash with tech elements and prog elements) "...and justice for all"- Metallica (thrash with tech elements and prog elements) "Seventh son..."- Iron Maiden (Heavy with more prog elements) "No exit"- Fates Warning (Prog metal with heavy/power roots) "Endless war"- Realm (techno- thrash) "The sane asylum" - Blind illusion (techno- thrash) "Dimension Hatross" - Voivod (prog -and psichedelic-thrash) "Deception ignored" Deathrow (techno-thrash) "Master project genesis" Target (techno-thrash) "Punishment for decadence" Coroner (thrash metal with high technical skills) "Universe" DBC (techno-metal) 1989 "Control and resistance" - WAtchTower (the definitive technical metal album) "Perfect Simmetry"- Fates Warning (a true prog metal album) "Nothingface" Voivod (Psychedelic/prog metal) "When dream and day unite" Dream Theater (prog metal with heavy/power elements ) "The principle of doubt" Mekong Delta (prog metal with thrash as the base) "No more colour" Coroner (thrash with high technical skills) "Piece of time" Atheist (techno-death) "Gutter Ballet" Savatage (a Heavy release that has influenced prog) "Alice in Hell" Annihilator (thrash with very high technical points) 1990 "Dances of death..." Mekong Delta (the definitive prog thrrash album) "Steps" Sieges Even (technical and prog metal) "Rust in peace" Megadeth (I think we can consider it prog-thrash..) "Act III" Death Angel (thrash with prog elements) "A social grace" Psychotic Waltz (prog/techno metal) "Never Neverland" Annihilator (Techno-thrash) "Empire" Queensryche (Heavy that has influenced prog) I 've had to stopp here in 1990 ( I'm very tired...  )I have non considered '80 Rush album, and If we should insert Master of puppets... I have also to think about "The ultra violence" (1987)- "frolic through the park" (1988) by Death Angel; TEstament's "Practice what you preach" (1989), and maybe also Anthrax's "Persistence of time" (1990); "Twisted into form" (1990) by Forbidden ....... I don't know if the list of the metal band that during the '80 was important for prog and technical metal (or has done album with high technical skills as or more Metallica's) is complete... Edited by Transgressor - July 05 2009 at 15:05 |
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 15:11 |
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O.K., but my point is not the merits of other bands. Which you are free to use in proposing new additions to PA's database. Nor is it my intention to make a claim as to whether any or all of the "new" bands are deserving of inclusion. After Megadeth, Voivod, and Iron Maiden, my knowledge of some is limited to one album (Death Angel - Frolic through the Park. Annihilator - Alice in Chains. Celtic Frost - Into the Pandemonium). But i wouldn't feel qualified to debate their candidacies. The rest, I recognise the names, but that's it.
Voivod's in. That's a clear cut case. Iron Maiden - based on their influence and a good part of their music - is a good fit for prog related. Megadeth - I'll repeat myself - I think they belong here. But I don't think I can make a sufficient case for them, and I haven't seen one posted here yet. Emphasis on the "yet" part. And the rest - well, you've been invited to present your presentation for their inclusion. It seems to me that whatever you come up with is likely to be well thought and organized . Which makes it easier for PA to make a decision. Which would also end up building a good rep here. God only knows every community can always use people who can contribute in a positive and clear manner.  Sooooo .... here's to hoping we see some or all of your bands getting their day in the sun. I'll certainly be one that will follow up to see if there's some music I should check out.  |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Metallica ?
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Easy Money wrote:
