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kiwi View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2009 at 16:37
Originally posted by Alberto Muñoz Alberto Muñoz wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by kiwi kiwi wrote:


Ivan, I don't like the inference that life is over when you are married with a family. For me my adult years are where I have found my voice.
 
Never said life uis over, what i said is that when you marry and have kids you have other priorities than fightiing against widmills.
 
You have to accept the status quo and live with it if you want to feed your family, even the most raicals in the univerity have a job from the society they despissed so much in our student's days, the most radicals who hated `private property in all it's forms, work for ONGs and have huge salaries.
 
 
Right Ivan , as latinoamerican people we have some things in common (of course the languages), and the social and economic politics always hit us in many many ways, here in México almost every 6 years.
 
And yes when we have a family to maintain your priorities changed almost radically, many people who have not family  to support or are single, have a really hard time to understand when you talk about the maintenance of a family because they have to live  that to understand us.


I guess I am lucky. I live in New Zealand - identified as the most peaceful country on earth by the Economist this week.
But wherever we live life creates the experiences we need to refine our character Smile.

I don't think that life necessarily grinds us down either. And the vision we have of the world as a youth isn't necessarily that clear -- often our thinking is reactionary - in that we are reacting to our parent's world. There is that sentiment that "I left home because my parents were so stupid. When I returned some years later, I was amazed at how much they had learned".

Music that conveys the transcendence of the human spirit inspires me

We, verily, have made music as a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they may be lifted up unto the realm on high.. (Baha'u'llah)


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2009 at 17:00
Originally posted by kiwi kiwi wrote:


And the vision we have of the world as a youth isn't necessarily that clear -- often our thinking is reactionary - in that we are reacting to our parent's world. There is that sentiment that "I left home because my parents were so stupid. When I returned some years later, I was amazed at how much they had learned".


 
I agree with that, but if there is a moment to be a rebel, a reationary or even stupid, and, it's youth.
 
Young people are supposed to be idealists, question the status quo, protest against everything, probably later they will know it was wrong, but at least they had their moment of idealism, and believe it or not....this protests affect everybody and makes us think if what we are doing is correct
 
I remember I was almost arrested for burning a USSR flag in the door of the embassy after  they invaded Afghanistan when I was 15 or 16 (I ran as fast as I could and a a priest opened the doors of the church for the three of us who were escaping from the cops, because it was a military government and very few liked USSR, the cops didn't dare to enter to the church.).
 
Now I know that is not the way, that I shouldn't disrespect a national symbol for what the government does, but i don't regret what i did, is part of my life and my experience.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2009 at 02:13
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

But his ? album...amazing and inspiring in almost every way.
 
Best thing he's ever done! Thumbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 03:10
 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

   
What happens is simple, threads are as your kids, once they leave your control they take different paths and you can't control them.

Every religious related thread will bring up issues as Christianism, celibacy, bigotry, fanaticism, etc

But as Raff said, it's positive, people lately cares for few things, and having this number of responses, means people care about spiritual issues, something strange, because people tend to more superficial lately.

For example, in my days in the university, elections were important, we had active participation, the discussions in the big patio were really interesting or we went to our old cafeteria, took a coffee and talked for hours about Philosophy, Theology, etc.

Our elections sometimes took until 4 or 5 am counting votes and discussing one by one the conflictive votes, there was such a polarization between radical communists and all of us who were against this radical positions that almost 90% of the students voted.

Last month I went to ask for a copy of my diploma, and I found it full of kids playing with frisbees, the place was full of fast food restaurants, vending machines everywhere, nobody cared about anything

I went to visit the students federation from which I was Vice President (The first Democratic one after 30 years of Maoism) and the President who knew me because the old documents I signed and a photo of some of us stopping a strike not approved by the federation,

This kid told me only 5% of the students voted.and that they cared more about the spring Festival than to talk about Philosophy or Theology. The universal spirit of the university was lost

At least in this forum we keep the interest and you should be glad your thread has grown so much

Wise words indeed. I must say that even I care a lot. You know, here in old Europe there is starting to be big influence of Islam religion. Some people are getting worried, some people are joining far right organizations, some people don't mind at all. Most of them does nothing about it. 

I am trying to get info, to know about whole issue from different points of view. Not big problem in my country, muslim population forms 0.1% of all the people here, but in bigger countries, Sweden, Netherlands of France (and Germany as I heard), it's like clash between Christianity (which forms majority of population) and muslim minority.

Remember that it's just all that I've heard on internet. Your story is important. It proves something. What about this China square, Tiananmen. Article in local newspapers told story of one guy, who was doing survey amongs the people here. He asked if they know what has happened here twenty years ago. The mostly didn't knew and few of them knew, some young students. And they were scared by the question.

It must be really harsch to live under such ideals, for you, for them, for my progfather back in 1980's (even our country is considered as one of the better places, but still), he couldn't go to university because of he was wearing jeans and beard at the high school final exams.

There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 03:32
I tolerate Christian lyrics as long as they are intelligent or well written even though I don´t agree with the message. I like bands like Saviour Machine and Believer a lot. I would even go as far as to call myself a fan.
 
I don´t know why but I am generally a bit more critical towards Christian lyrics than I am about songs praising Satan even though none of it really appeal to me. I´m an atheist. It´s hard not to love quality bands like Slayer ( well not really satanists but they had that image when they started out) and Deicide ( very blashemous lyrics ) when their music is so great though ( Well I used to be a big fan of Deicide, but only listen to the old albums now. That´s not because of the lyrical content though). There are not many Christian bands that compete with that power ( just listen to Mortification or Vengeance Rising. Very weak metal acts). Especially not in metal. It´s a matter of personal taste of course but a musicians spiritual belief almost always shine through in his/ her music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 03:41
Music and lyrics are a powerful medium - especially if you are in a very famous band - I mean how many have tried to unravel the meaning of  "The Wall".

WHAT A FANTASTIC PRIVILEGE TO BE ABLE TO PREACH TO SO MANY MILLIONS!!

Think about it - it isn't just the religious (yes, they do and I don't blame them) - it's all the lyric writers - they all want  us to understand and accept their point of view...

The religious, the atheist, the agnostic, the green peace-lovers/ hippies, those in love, those who have lost love, the political, those that are a little off the wall - they all preach to us, and if it's not preaching they simply want to tell us something that close to their hearts.  Why not?

But do we really care? (does it change the way we ourselves think?)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 04:01
Originally posted by MartyMcFly89 MartyMcFly89 wrote:

 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
 
What happens is simple, threads are as your kids, once they leave your control they take different paths and you can't control them.



Every religious related thread will bring up issues as Christianism, celibacy, bigotry, fanaticism, etc


But as Raff said, it's positive, people lately cares for few things, and having this number of responses, means people care about spiritual issues, something strange, because people tend to more superficial lately.


For example, in my days in the university, elections were important, we had active participation, the discussions in the big patio were really interesting or we went to our old cafeteria, took a coffee and talked for hours about Philosophy, Theology, etc.


Our elections sometimes took until 4 or 5 am counting votes and discussing one by one the conflictive votes, there was such a polarization between radical communists and all of us who were against this radical positions that almost 90% of the students voted.


Last month I went to ask for a copy of my diploma, and I found it full of kids playing with frisbees, the place was full of fast food restaurants, vending machines everywhere, nobody cared about anything


I went to visit the students federation from which I was Vice President (The first Democratic one after 30 years of Maoism) and the President who knew me because the old documents I signed and a photo of some of us stopping a strike not approved by the federation,


This kid told me only 5% of the students voted.and that they cared more about the spring Festival than to talk about Philosophy or Theology. The universal spirit of the university was lost


At least in this forum we keep the interest and you should be glad your thread has grown so much

Wise words indeed. I must say that even I care a lot. You know, here in old Europe there is starting to be big influence of Islam religion. Some people are getting worried, some people are joining far right organizations, some people don't mind at all. Most of them does nothing about it. 

I am trying to get info, to know about whole issue from different points of view. Not big problem in my country, muslim population forms 0.1% of all the people here, but in bigger countries, Sweden, Netherlands of France (and Germany as I heard), it's like clash between Christianity (which forms majority of population) and muslim minority.

Remember that it's just all that I've heard on internet. Your story is important. It proves something. What about this China square, Tiananmen. Article in local newspapers told story of one guy, who was doing survey amongs the people here. He asked if they know what has happened here twenty years ago. The mostly didn't knew and few of them knew, some young students. And they were scared by the question.

It must be really harsch to live under such ideals, for you, for them, for my progfather back in 1980's (even our country is considered as one of the better places, but still), he couldn't go to university because of he was wearing jeans and beard at the high school final exams.




Dear Marty, describing the current situation in European countries with sizable Muslim populations as "a clash between Christianity and Islam" is incredibly naive. There is no such clash. Neither in theory (as most of the teachings of those two religions are largely the same), nor in practice (as Christians and Muslims are not clashing for religious reasons). Here in the U.K., where I live, there are millions of Muslims, and most of them get on perfectly well with their non-Muslim neigbours. Back in Belgium, in the city where I was born, one third of the population consists of immigrants (mainly Italians, Morrocans and Turks) and life seems perfectly harmonious.

What HAS happened, of course, is that in some European countries there have been terrorist attacks by Muslim extremists. Don't forget that these attacks have shocked the "Muslim community" (if, indeed, there IS such a community) as much as the so-called native population.

As far as I can tell, in Britain and France Muslims usually come from former colonies, and it seems perfectly reasonable that they have found a home in the country which once overran the land of their fathers! In other countries, such as the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany, Turks and Morrocans were initially employed as "guest labourers", under the understanding they would eventually return to their countries of origin. But now it seems most "guest labourers" (or their descendants) are staying for good. There is a very real danger that this situation will lead to serious friction in the future. How many Europeans can cope with truly heterogeneous populations? If you look at the past, the record isn't very good. One envies the U.S.A. their idea of a "melting pot".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 12:37

Oh, sorry. When you look at it from your point of view, it sounds better than mine theory. Mostly because I have no real experience and you have. 

I heard the word, gastarbeiter, right ? Gast as a guest and arbeit like work, er is er even in English. OK, it's not clash of religions, so it is agressive minority (terrorists) of bigger minority (muslims) ? It's like gypsies in my country. This is something I have experience. I'm not racist. I hate most of them because most of them I know are behaving bad. Nor I'm racist because I know few of them and one guy, gypsi guy can be considered as one of the best boys I've ever met. Hard working, punk loving (you can't expect people to be prog loving all the time). OK, he is man. And his sister ? She was my girl for two years then we finally broke up. But this was on village. I'm from 4th biggest city here in Czech Republic.

There are problems you know, our country is considered as racist hive by some, but that's not true. Truth is  ... blah blah, I can continue, but it's off topic.


Anyway, in my country, we have 0.1% muslims. Our goverment is banning them from building mosques. They have one for ten million country. Is this right ?

And when choosing between Israel and Arabic states, what would you choose ?

Bad theme, I'm stucked and I don't want to be labelled badly just because of my not knowing of facts, so take it easily please.

There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 18:39
Here in Perú most  Arabs are Catholics (second or third generation) and incredibly, they are business partners with some jewishs, there is no problem among them, specially because both communities are full of wealthy people.
 
Terrorism comes from another place.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 22:14
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Terrorism comes from another place.
 
Maybe living in a desert makes people go nuts.
 
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2009 at 01:27

Maybe it's the influence of fanatic leaders back in desert. There in Europe (or South America) it's calm because they live little bit with they former lives, but also under our laws and habits, right ?

Murder of Theo Van Gogh was also work of fanatics, like these bombing in Britain ? Sad thing that voices of these people are so loud. And to be honest, they present others in bad light.

And about The Wall, I think that Pink Floyd, especially Roger Waters knew it. It's little bit parody on this whole thing about message in music, remember Pink's behaviour after Comfortambly Numb.

There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2009 at 04:17
Hi again Marty,

Nice to hear you're from the Czech republic. I visited Prague a few years ago and I absolutely loved it. My best friend was then teaching English in Brno and married a local girl!

I'm afraid I've read quite a bit about the way so-called "gypsies" are treated in your beautiful country. Also, Robert Wyatt has a moving song about the extermination of gypsies during World War II on his (brilliant but depressing) album CUCKOOLAND. It features David Gilmour on lead guitar and Eno (highly recognisable!) on backing vocals. (If it interests you: Wyatt is one of prog's most intelligent and outspoken atheists.)

When you ask me to "choose" between Israel and the Arab states, I don't know what to answer. In recent years I've read quite a bit of Arabic, Jewish and Persian poetry, and my respect for the cultural traditions of the entire region just keeps growing. But neither Israel nor any of the other countries of the Middle East seems a desirable place to settle.

More to the point: what are your favourite Czech prog bands, and why? I'm afraid I only know the Plastic People of the Universe...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2009 at 04:49
Originally posted by PinkPangolin PinkPangolin wrote:

Music and lyrics are a powerful medium - especially if you are in a very famous band - I mean how many have tried to unravel the meaning of  "The Wall".

WHAT A FANTASTIC PRIVILEGE TO BE ABLE TO PREACH TO SO MANY MILLIONS!!

Think about it - it isn't just the religious (yes, they do and I don't blame them) - it's all the lyric writers - they all want  us to understand and accept their point of view...

The religious, the atheist, the agnostic, the green peace-lovers/ hippies, those in love, those who have lost love, the political, those that are a little off the wall - they all preach to us, and if it's not preaching they simply want to tell us something that close to their hearts.  Why not?

But do we really care? (does it change the way we ourselves think?)


Yes, excellent point. As I have said earlier in this discussion - there is no ideological vacuum. Everyone has some sort of god, even if it is just shopping.



We, verily, have made music as a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they may be lifted up unto the realm on high.. (Baha'u'llah)


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2009 at 14:26
Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:




Dear Marty, describing the current situation in European countries with sizable Muslim populations as "a clash between Christianity and Islam" is incredibly naive. There is no such clash. Neither in theory (as most of the teachings of those two religions are largely the same), nor in practice (as Christians and Muslims are not clashing for religious reasons). Here in the U.K., where I live, there are millions of Muslims, and most of them get on perfectly well with their non-Muslim neigbours. Back in Belgium, in the city where I was born, one third of the population consists of immigrants (mainly Italians, Morrocans and Turks) and life seems perfectly harmonious.

What HAS happened, of course, is that in some European countries there have been terrorist attacks by Muslim extremists. Don't forget that these attacks have shocked the "Muslim community" (if, indeed, there IS such a community) as much as the so-called native population.

As far as I can tell, in Britain and France Muslims usually come from former colonies, and it seems perfectly reasonable that they have found a home in the country which once overran the land of their fathers! In other countries, such as the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany, Turks and Morrocans were initially employed as "guest labourers", under the understanding they would eventually return to their countries of origin. But now it seems most "guest labourers" (or their descendants) are staying for good. There is a very real danger that this situation will lead to serious friction in the future. How many Europeans can cope with truly heterogeneous populations? If you look at the past, the record isn't very good. One envies the U.S.A. their idea of a "melting pot".



Heh, I didn't see much of a melting pot growing up.  There were exactly 2 blacks in my school growing up, everyone else was white Caucasian.  Luckily, we lived near San Francisco for a year when I was 9 years old (my dad had to go there for the year for work) and I was exposed to quite a few different peoples during that time.  But outside the larger US cities, it's pretty much "white America" from my experience.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2009 at 14:44
Hi,
 
Guys ...
 
You've hi-jacked this thread ... and are not even talking music ... (and no one even listened to "The Soft Parade" either!)
 
And we have to trust your opinions on music?


Edited by moshkito - June 09 2009 at 14:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2009 at 14:52
Can you remind me about "The Soft Parade"? I missed it.

We, verily, have made music as a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they may be lifted up unto the realm on high.. (Baha'u'llah)


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2009 at 22:15
Eela Craig - "Missa Universalis" is very preachy.  http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=295 It's like a roman catholic "prog.rock mass" delivered in English, German, French and Latin.   Has its moments...but I wouldn't play it on a date or with your average buddy.  They might think you need a one way ticket to the funny farm.  Get it for the keyboards.
 
Latte E Miele's "Passio Secundum Mattheum" http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=78  (based on the "Book of Matthew') is probably the finest religious "prog.rock" album out there.  I don't understand the lyrics(in Latin)...but there's a presence there every time I listen to it.  Check it out.
 
Julian Belanger (Gooner)
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at progarchives...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2010 at 17:46

Now I've heard more religious lyrics, like Akacia (where I honestly didn't hear them - or wasn't trying) and I cannot tell any major difference between then and now.

I suppose that when I don't want to hear lyrics, I don't hear them. And believe me, I don't want to hear preachy lyrics. Why should I, as unbeliever.

However, I'm not sure if it's good for believers too. I never hear any Progster here saying that they like religious lyrics.

Or do they like them ?

There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2010 at 17:59
I am not a fan of religious lyrics but the CD Ajalon released is brilliant. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2010 at 19:41

Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

I am not a fan of religious lyrics but the CD Ajalon released is brilliant. 

Indeed, their new CD is beautiful. However, I remember listening one of their old CD's and it was terrible.

There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"

   -Andyman1125 on Lulu







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