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Progosopher 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 12 2009
Location: Coolwood
Status: Offline
Points: 6472
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 Posted: June 08 2009 at 22:34 |
Dream Theater is what it is. They're not one of my favorites, but they do come up in circulation fairly regularly. I can only take them at face value. They do what they do, warts and all. I do find it intriguing that this band, more than any others perhaps, incites such love and hate, praise and riducule. I don't know why that is.
What I like about them: Smokin' hot and great playing.  What I don't like: Their songs. I find their lyrics trite, even though they try to be profound (but I have REALLY high standards for that sort of thing). The songs are written to accomodate the solos and the jams. Now, I really like solos and jams, but they tend to not be a strong basis for a good song.  What I would change about them is to have them write better songs. Or just can the vocals entirely and do all instrumental. But then we would have Liquid Tension Experiment, and not Dream Theater. 
Just my humble opnion. 
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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KingCrimson250
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 573
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Posted: June 08 2009 at 23:11 |
 jplanet wrote:
If it wasn't for their metal leanings, in both image and sound, we wouldn't even be talking about them right now. The vast majority of Dream Theater fans are metal fans - as prog fans, we make up only a very tiny subset of their audience...Metal sells. Prog doesn't. This is the same reason Opeth, Devin Townsend, and Porcupine Tree have achieved greater popularity compared to Flower Kings, Spock's Beard, etc. They all have a sound that can be marketed as "metal". The only non-metal prog bands that can afford to tour regularly are the ones that have a legacy dating back to the 70's (Yes, Jethro Tull). Otherwise, as large a community as this site appears to have, we're not even a blip on the map of any record executive.
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I agree with that, but it's interesting to note that on a metal-oriented forum that I'm on, a lot of the users (not all) seem just as displeased with DT's recent albums as we are. Which is ironic, I think, because a lot of the newer albums seem to be more catering to the metal fans. Despite that, they don't really seem to be catching a lot of new attention in the metal scene. I suppose DT's sense of what "heavy" is may be a little dated. As I Am, for example, is pretty heavy for maybe ten or fifteen years ago, but with what seems to be the rise of death metal in metal circles, it isn't really catching on. For example, I can almost guarantee you that if a metalhead had a prog metal album on a Top Ten Albums Of The Last Year Or So list (or whatever), it would probably be Watershed, not Systematic Chaos.
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Marty McFly
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2009
Location: Czech Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 3968
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 00:09 |
it's interesting to read these ideas what DT should do. They will not, why ? Some of us know why :- )
god, this is funny topic
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There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 01:17 |
jplanet wrote:
If it wasn't for their metal leanings, in both image and sound, we wouldn't even be talking about them right now. The vast majority of Dream Theater fans are metal fans - as prog fans, we make up only a very tiny subset of their audience...Metal sells. Prog doesn't. This is the same reason Opeth, Devin Townsend, and Porcupine Tree have achieved greater popularity compared to Flower Kings, Spock's Beard, etc. They all have a sound that can be marketed as "metal". The only non-metal prog bands that can afford to tour regularly are the ones that have a legacy dating back to the 70's (Yes, Jethro Tull). Otherwise, as large a community as this site appears to have, we're not even a blip on the map of any record executive.
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I resent this separation between metal fans and prog fans. People who like metal but not prog would never listen to a band like Dream Theater.
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progkidjoel
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 02 2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 19643
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 01:25 |
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toolis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 26 2006
Location: MacedoniaGreece
Status: Offline
Points: 1678
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 01:45 |
Epignosis wrote:
but I think their latter work is TONS better than their goofy Images & Words business. 
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God, i hope this is a joke, too...
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-music is like pornography...
sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more...
-sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue...
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topofsm
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 17 2008
Location: Arizona, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1698
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 02:03 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
jplanet wrote:
If it wasn't for their metal leanings, in both image and sound, we wouldn't even be talking about them right now. The vast majority of Dream Theater fans are metal fans - as prog fans, we make up only a very tiny subset of their audience...Metal sells. Prog doesn't. This is the same reason Opeth, Devin Townsend, and Porcupine Tree have achieved greater popularity compared to Flower Kings, Spock's Beard, etc. They all have a sound that can be marketed as "metal". The only non-metal prog bands that can afford to tour regularly are the ones that have a legacy dating back to the 70's (Yes, Jethro Tull). Otherwise, as large a community as this site appears to have, we're not even a blip on the map of any record executive.
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I resent this separation between metal fans and prog fans. People who like metal but not prog would never listen to a band like Dream Theater.
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Quoted for truth.
Even Systematic Chaos is not really geared for metalheads, rather for prog-metalheads instead of the general prog fanbase, even if prog-metalheads still don't enjoy it.
For one, "Forsaken" isn't a metal track, it's almost like Evanescence. "Repentance" and "Prophets of War" aren't metal either, though I could see a metal fan appreciating the former. TMOLS doesn't get metal until about halfway through, and both parts of ITPOE are way too proggy in structure for straight up metal fans to fully appreciate it. That leaves only "Constant Motion" and TDEN, the latter of which goes insanely technical and proggy so that any fan of traditional metal would go "This is crap".
I think the only album that a regular metal fan would appreciate is TOT. Obviously they aren't aiming for the metal fans. If anything, because of "Forsaken" being a single, their latest image trend, and the 'gothic' sound Rudess is talking about they are aiming for misunderstood 14 year girls now.
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Visitor13
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 4702
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 02:06 |
The T wrote:
^that makes sense. Believe me, I could start 92871 threads like "What does The Mars Volta need to do?" (and my answer would be get rid of the drummer and drop the caffeinne.. |
Actually that's perfect advice for DT.
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theBox
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2005
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 427
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 02:53 |
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I admit i have a love/hate relationship with the band. Their first period (IaW through FFI) is what got me into prog music in the first place. Since then, I have watched the band rapidly deteriorating in just about every aspect: Lyricwise (SFaM being the pinacle of BAD lyric writing), soundwise (why the crushing chuga-chuga riffs in 6D, ToT and SC?) and composition-wise (just about everything post SFaM with the exception of the brilliant 8V title track). The thing that saddens me the most is that just about every record 6D throu BC&sL has random moments of former brilliance on display, but they are way to few and far between. So what i'm trying to say is i believe the band still has talent but they need to retain their focus, take their time and let good ideas develop. Try some quality contol for heaven's sake! I believe it worked with octavarium (title track) it can happen again! Oh and PLEASE, step off the *ULTRA* heavy metal wagon, it is SO beneath you.
Just my 2 cents...
p.s. I had high expectations for BC&SL. I stand dissapointed once again...
Edited by theBox - June 09 2009 at 02:56
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friso
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 24 2007
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 2506
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 03:06 |
What they should do? The same thing as every modern band:
- get an organ and a mellotron
- no digital amplification for guitars, just Fender's and stompboxes
- Let Patrucci play on a strangly tuned guitar, maybe it would get more interesting.
For instance: E G C# G C D
- Try to make a record live in a mediumsized theatre withoud fans.
Seems like a plan to me.
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theBox
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2005
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 427
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 03:08 |
kingfriso wrote:
What they should do? The same thing as every modern band:
- get an organ and a mellotron
- no digital amplification for guitars, just Fender's and stompboxes
- Let Patrucci play on a strangly tuned guitar, maybe it would get more interesting.
For instance: E G C# G C D
- Try to make a record live in a mediumsized theatre withoud fans.
Seems like a plan to me.
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I love you man...
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 03:35 |
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I know. Pink Floyd sucks. They need to resurrect Rick. Until then, I can't be happy with any album they release in the future. Screw you, Pink Floyd, for not having necromantic capabilities.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 07:05 |
toolis wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
but I think their latter work is TONS better than their goofy Images & Words business.
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God, i hope this is a joke, too... |
I now know this much is true:
1) You don't know me very well and
2) You don't read my reviews.
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Mr_Upside_Down
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 06 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 58
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 07:06 |
They need to hire an editor. Seriously, they should have someone outside the band critically review their work prior to publication - someone who they can trust and is capable of being brutally honest. IMO, with each album DT show an increasing tendency to kill otherwise good songs by forgetting the fundamental axiom that "less is more". They should try to get rid of all the pointless noodling and retain only their best instrumental breaks, delete those musical interludes that interrupt the mood and feel of the song, smooth out the time/tempo/mood changes that just don't work, rewrite some of their sillier lyrics, and drop the idea that an album has to be 80 minutes long just because you can fit that much music on a CD. I think someone needs to save DT from themselves... and I'm sure there's no shortage of volunteers! 
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 07:14 |
Epignosis wrote:
OzzProg wrote:
Bring in the London Philharmonic! That solves every band's low point in their careers.
In all seriousness:
1. Turn up their Bass player's amp
2. Stop thinking about making quick cash on "Hit singles"
3. Get back to wicked ass keyboards like in "THE DANCE OF ETERNITY!"
Woooo!
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You know what? A plus right there.
Myung is a fantastic bassist, but you'd almost never know it. Portnoy drowns him out every time.
Dream Theater does not need singles if they're making solid albums (and they are).
And yes, Rudess is excellent, especially when he uses various tones (instead of the electric guitar clone).
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I've mentioned this before but if you can't hear Myung, buy new speakers. Seriously, listening through studio monitors, I can hear Myung perfectly.
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 07:17 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
jplanet wrote:
If it wasn't for their metal leanings, in both image and sound, we wouldn't even be talking about them right now. The vast majority of Dream Theater fans are metal fans - as prog fans, we make up only a very tiny subset of their audience...Metal sells. Prog doesn't. This is the same reason Opeth, Devin Townsend, and Porcupine Tree have achieved greater popularity compared to Flower Kings, Spock's Beard, etc. They all have a sound that can be marketed as "metal". The only non-metal prog bands that can afford to tour regularly are the ones that have a legacy dating back to the 70's (Yes, Jethro Tull). Otherwise, as large a community as this site appears to have, we're not even a blip on the map of any record executive.
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I resent this separation between metal fans and prog fans. People who like metal but not prog would never listen to a band like Dream Theater.
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Plenty of metal fans that don't care for prog at all yet like Dream Theater anyway. I go to enough heavy metal forums to see that this is true.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 07:20 |
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^ I've yet to meet one. Of course not every DT fan will like Yes or Genesis, but come on ... show me a DT fan who likes none of the bands listed as prog here, and not rooted in metal.
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 07:21 |
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As far as I see it, Petrucci and Portnoy need to stop producing, because they aren't clearly not the best at the job.
The band has the chops and talent to do almost anything, they need a real kick along by an inspired producer.
They also need to ditch Paul Northfield.
How a band with that much success under their belts and presumably enough money decide to hire the guy again even if his sound engineering skills are clearly not as good as some other metal producers beats me. Paul Northfield's mixes give this irritating sameness to the overall sound and it's partly what drove me away from really enjoying Systematic Chaos as much as I could have.
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UMUR
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 3073
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 07:30 |
I agree that Portnoy and Petrucci should stop producing. The two best Dream Theater albums Images & Words and Awake were produced by others and itīs audible.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 07:37 |
Petrovsk Mizinski wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
OzzProg wrote:
Bring in the London Philharmonic! That solves every band's low point in their careers.
In all seriousness:
1. Turn up their Bass player's amp
2. Stop thinking about making quick cash on "Hit singles"
3. Get back to wicked ass keyboards like in "THE DANCE OF ETERNITY!"
Woooo!
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You know what? A plus right there.
Myung is a fantastic bassist, but you'd almost never know it. Portnoy drowns him out every time.
Dream Theater does not need singles if they're making solid albums (and they are).
And yes, Rudess is excellent, especially when he uses various tones (instead of the electric guitar clone).
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I've mentioned this before but if you can't hear Myung, buy new speakers.
Seriously, listening through studio monitors, I can hear Myung perfectly.
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I've listened through many different avenues, and it's rare that I can hear him clearly. Remember that most consumers don't have studio monitors to enjoy their music, so its up to the band to sound good on merely decent speakers.
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What Does Dream Theater Need to Do? (Musically)
