| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Ivan_Melgar_M 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
|
 Posted: June 02 2009 at 11:11 |
 infandous wrote:
That IS funny! I'm actually familiar with that site, and have read some of their, um, interesting perspectives on various issues. They reinforce my desire to avoid religions like the plague (but NOT belief and spirituality........I'm not an atheist).
|
This sites reinforce my opinion of avoiding fanatism, wherever it comes from.
When I was finishing the school a radical Catholic Group started to recruit people (Not Opus Dei) and I was interested to have a better approach to God.
But when I noticed they only tried to recruit kids from expensive schools (I came from an expensive Catholic School that my parents paid with a lot of effort and hard working because we were never rich), with emphasis in those who were going to join a university plus their really extreme position, I started to doubt.
Then once in the beach a good friend who was member of this movement told me that it was depressive and humilliating to see women in bikinis....This shocked me, because iif the group was able to modify the natural instincts of a 17 years old kid (I only thought in women at that point and most of my friends also), they were capable of anything, then they started to program the reunions on Friday and Saturday nights (Obviously to make us avoid parties and fun), and started to talk about how good it would be to compromise to embrace celibacy without the need of being priests.
They said celibacy was the perfect state, when i asked what would be of humanity if all the people adopted the "perfect state", they called me anti Christian, etc etc etc, I stood up and say good bye..
At that point I found a good priest in the university who told me I didn't required to embrace celibacy or join mysterious semi secret movements to be a good Catholic ,and that i should folow my real feelings, be a good person, the best proffesional possible and always respect God, that's all, so never went back
The funny thing is that i was never a party guy, but, I believe kids must enjoy live and anything that goes against the natural order of things is wrong.
Since that day I go to mass, believe I'm a good person, obey most Catholic rules and precepts, but when i smell fundamentalists, I run.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 02 2009 at 11:14
|
|
|
 |
fuxi
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2459
|
Posted: June 02 2009 at 11:51 |
infandous wrote:
They reinforce my desire to avoid religions like the plague (but NOT belief and spirituality........I'm not an atheist). |
Whenever there's a discussion of religious matters on this site, some people say that, although they avoid established religions, they are definitely NOT atheists. (I remember a discussion of the AQUALUNG album. It couldn't be atheist, oh no, it was ONLY an attack on the Christian Church.)
Well, let me tell you, folks, I'm a happy atheist, and I've never seen anything which indicates religions are more than fiction.
At the same time, I'm convinced I'm a spiritual someone. Bach's B-minor Mass, the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, the Ryoanji rock garden in Kyoto and English Metaphysical poetry turn me on in more ways than you can imagine! Like so many of you, I am convinced that much of the best art in this world is religious in nature.
But at the same time (perhaps this will please Ivan?) I like to think I'm a bit like Jorge Luis Borges. This world's myriad beliefs move and fascinate me - but I cannot take any doctrines about the afterlife seriously.
In prog terms, the only bearable religious lyrics are non-preachy ones. And where are they?
Edited by fuxi - June 02 2009 at 11:55
|
|
Marty McFly
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2009
Location: Czech Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 3968
|
Posted: June 03 2009 at 06:47 |
|
I passed out for few days and meanwhile I've returned to this forum. And I passed out again when I saw this thread of such a size.
I'm little bit scared, that it moved away from my original idea, then it witnessed some kind of flame war and now it's cooling down.
I'm little bit confused and it probably woudln't be good to read all these "things" and words said.
Can I ask what has happened here ?
|
There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my
|
|
Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
|
Posted: June 03 2009 at 06:54 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
infandous wrote:
That IS funny! I'm actually familiar with that site, and have read some of their, um, interesting perspectives on various issues. They reinforce my desire to avoid religions like the plague (but NOT belief and spirituality........I'm not an atheist).
|
This sites reinforce my opinion of avoiding fanatism, wherever it comes from.
When I was finishing the school a radical Catholic Group started to recruit people (Not Opus Dei) and I was interested to have a better approach to God.
But when I noticed they only tried to recruit kids from expensive schools (I came from an expensive Catholic School that my parents paid with a lot of effort and hard working because we were never rich), with emphasis in those who were going to join a university plus their really extreme position, I started to doubt.
Then once in the beach a good friend who was member of this movement told me that it was depressive and humilliating to see women in bikinis....This shocked me, because iif the group was able to modify the natural instincts of a 17 years old kid (I only thought in women at that point and most of my friends also), they were capable of anything, then they started to program the reunions on Friday and Saturday nights (Obviously to make us avoid parties and fun), and started to talk about how good it would be to compromise to embrace celibacy without the need of being priests.
They said celibacy was the perfect state, when i asked what would be of humanity if all the people adopted the "perfect state", they called me anti Christian, etc etc etc, I stood up and say good bye..
At that point I found a good priest in the university who told me I didn't required to embrace celibacy or join mysterious semi secret movements to be a good Catholic ,and that i should folow my real feelings, be a good person, the best proffesional possible and always respect God, that's all, so never went back
The funny thing is that i was never a party guy, but, I believe kids must enjoy live and anything that goes against the natural order of things is wrong.
Since that day I go to mass, believe I'm a good person, obey most Catholic rules and precepts, but when i smell fundamentalists, I run.
Iván |
Sorry about further derailing the thread, but when I saw Ivan's post, I could not help responding... The bolded quote is EXACTLY what happened to my brother at the same age (he was in high school), though the organisation involved this time was indeed Opus Dei. As to the questions posed by the thread starter, well, topics such as this are very likely to give rise to flame wars, or at least to heated arguments, and to go somewhat off topic. Anyway, I think you should be happy you got such a response - it doesn't happen too often these days, and it's a sight better than having people argue about Dream Theater or Yes.
|
|
infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2447
|
Posted: June 03 2009 at 08:03 |
fuxi wrote:
infandous wrote:
They reinforce my desire to avoid religions like the plague (but NOT belief and spirituality........I'm not an atheist). |
Whenever there's a discussion of religious matters on this site, some people say that, although they avoid established religions, they are definitely NOT atheists. (I remember a discussion of the AQUALUNG album. It couldn't be atheist, oh no, it was ONLY an attack on the Christian Church.)
Well, let me tell you, folks, I'm a happy atheist, and I've never seen anything which indicates religions are more than fiction.
At the same time, I'm convinced I'm a spiritual someone. Bach's B-minor Mass, the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, the Ryoanji rock garden in Kyoto and English Metaphysical poetry turn me on in more ways than you can imagine! Like so many of you, I am convinced that much of the best art in this world is religious in nature.
But at the same time (perhaps this will please Ivan?) I like to think I'm a bit like Jorge Luis Borges. This world's myriad beliefs move and fascinate me - but I cannot take any doctrines about the afterlife seriously.
In prog terms, the only bearable religious lyrics are non-preachy ones. And where are they? |
Well I know some very friendly atheists. I just know I am not strictly an atheist myself, but I've felt that I was in the past (or tried to be I suppose). In any case, you and I seem to have quite similar views. Except that I DO believe an afterlife is possible, just not necessarily in the way that any religion describes it (or maybe so, since no one can ever answer such a question with any certainty). As to lyrics, I tend to agree. Even Jon Anderson's lyrics (on later Yes albums anyway) can be what I consider "preachy". And there are certainly a great deal of non-religious preachy lyrics in prog and other genre's as well. But my view is that if an artist feels strongly enough about something to feel the need to "preach" to people about it through their music, I'm willing to consider their views. I may reject them, I may agree, or I may be indifferent. But if I don't care for the music, then the message really isn't going to get to me in any case. And if I love the music, then the message is not going to turn me away from it. I listened to Sola Scriptura a couple nights ago, after first reading this thread. I must say, I still love the music, and aside from the overwroght ballad (track 3), they lyrics don't bother me and fit the music quite well. Does Neals message move me in any way? Not really. But the music does, and that is enough for me.
Edited by infandous - June 03 2009 at 08:05
|
|
Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
|
Posted: June 03 2009 at 08:25 |
|
I know this thread focused mainly on Morse's Sola Scripture, but that album hardly "moved" me either.
But his ? album...amazing and inspiring in almost every way.
|
|
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
|
Posted: June 03 2009 at 10:48 |
MartyMcFly89 wrote:
I passed out for few days and meanwhile I've returned to this forum. And I passed out again when I saw this thread of such a size.
I'm little bit scared, that it moved away from my original idea, then it witnessed some kind of flame war and now it's cooling down.
I'm little bit confused and it probably woudln't be good to read all these "things" and words said.
Can I ask what has happened here ? |
What happens is simple, threads are as your kids, once they leave your control they take different paths and you can't control them.
Every religious related thread will bring up issues as Christianism, celibacy, bigotry, fanaticism, etc
But as Raff said, it's positive, people lately cares for few things, and having this number of responses, means people care about spiritual issues, something strange, because people tend to more superficial lately.
For example, in my days in the university, elections were important, we had active participation, the discussions in the big patio were really interesting or we went to our old cafeteria, took a coffee and talked for hours about Philosophy, Theology, etc.
Our elections sometimes took until 4 or 5 am counting votes and discussing one by one the conflictive votes, there was such a polarization between radical communists and all of us who were against this radical positions that almost 90% of the students voted.
Last month I went to ask for a copy of my diploma, and I found it full of kids playing with frisbees, the place was full of fast food restaurants, vending machines everywhere, nobody cared about anything
I went to visit the students federation from which I was Vice President (The first Democratic one after 30 years of Maoism) and the President who knew me because the old documents I signed and a photo of some of us stopping a strike not approved by the federation,
This kid told me only 5% of the students voted.and that they cared more about the spring Festival than to talk about Philosophy or Theology. The universal spirit of the university was lost
At least in this forum we keep the interest and you should be glad your thread has grown so much.
|
|
|
|
KingCrimson250
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 573
|
Posted: June 03 2009 at 10:56 |
|
That's very interesting. What do you think contributed to the overall decline in the Universities then? Is it the influence of the mass media and their portrayal of university as a "party place?" Is it just a general lack of maturity among young adults today? Or is it just because there's very little that's perceived as being worth caring about anymore ("everyone knows that philosophy is useless, all religions are basically the same, and besides you can't prove that a God does/doesn't exist, so there's no point in talking theology, politics aren't important because democracy is the only way and all candidates lie anyway so who cares who you vote for, or if you vote at all, etc, so let's just go out and enjoy life")?
|
|
infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2447
|
Posted: June 03 2009 at 12:06 |
Epignosis wrote:
I know this thread focused mainly on Morse's Sola Scripture, but that album hardly "moved" me either.
But his ? album...amazing and inspiring in almost every way.
|
Well, I find the music on both to be quite "moving". The lyrics, well, I guess I'd agree that the lyrics on ? are better in that regard. I have an undergraduate degree in religious studies, so I'm quite familiar with the bible, especially the Old Testament, and I think that has a lot to do with the appeal of the ? lyrics to me. Ultimately though, I can't be a Christian, as I don't believe in Christ (divinity specifically, but I'm not convinced there was an actual historical figure either........not convinced either way on that score really). So Neal's lyrics only ever go so far with me.
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
|
Posted: June 03 2009 at 12:24 |
KingCrimson250 wrote:
That's very interesting. What do you think contributed to the overall decline in the Universities then? Is it the influence of the mass media and their portrayal of university as a "party place?" Is it just a general lack of maturity among young adults today? Or is it just because there's very little that's perceived as being worth caring about anymore ("everyone knows that philosophy is useless, all religions are basically the same, and besides you can't prove that a God does/doesn't exist, so there's no point in talking theology, politics aren't important because democracy is the only way and all candidates lie anyway so who cares who you vote for, or if you vote at all, etc, so let's just go out and enjoy life")? |
I believe it's the generation, society, mass media, etc.
On our days we had Shinning Path killing 50,000 Peruvians, so politics was important, today we have no political leaders, hey they elected an exotic dancer as Congresswoman who's campaign was drawing a Nş 13 (her number in the list) in her butt and couldn't talk about anything.
Religion was one of the few things that stopped some people from joining Shinning Path, so we had terrible discussions with the radical Maoists who of course were atheists by dogma more than by belief but were obsessed in destroying religion.
Today people who publicly care about religion are the fanatics, and those who reject it don't care of making campaign because there's no point, being that if not even the millionaire Evangelist churches can decrease the number of Catholics, hardly they will achieve anything.
Society today is mainly about comfort, specialization is the priority, a lawyer from my days can take, civil, penal, labor and even family case (Tax lawyers were always a separate universe), so we had to learn about everything to be versatile, it was easier for us to discuss politics, philosophy or theology, because we were like learning machines
Today people leave the university knowing a lot of just one thing, even civil lawyers are divided into theory lawyers and Process lawyers, so nobody cares about anything that is not their own little universe,
There is a propaganda that says "We teach laws, but not for trial, to reach agreements"......For God's sake, that's stupid, because people will fight for what they believe they are entitled, but kids buy this crap and they can avoid the classes on process..What kind of lawyer doesn't know process?
A few months ago one of the approached to me to offer a ridiculous settle agreement, I just replied...See you in court, first he went pale, then he said i had to talk with my client, that I am that kind of lawyers that destroy advance, that how could I go to court instead of reaching an agreement, the guy was terrified.....Next week he offered twice the original agreement and only then I accepted....If he knew about trials, he probably had won, my client had made stupid mistakes (Legal but stupid), only because I was sure i could beat the crap out of him in a court based on his fear, he offered me what I expected.
They claim that they avoid confrontation...For God's sake a trial is essentially confrontational! If you don't want confrontation don't study laws.
In my time we ate homemade food on a traditional cafeteria where you could stay for hours talking with 10 guys in a big table) You just had to buy a coffee each 30 minutes) , today they have all the comforts, Mc Donald's, Burger King, KFC in personal tables with huge plasma TV's where they see all the top 40 stars and soccer...So who cares about dabete if you can see the Premiere League?
Until a couple years ago i taught Constitutional Law, and the constant question when I was talking was...Will this ebnter in the test? In our days we listened everything because the teacher has more experience and we wanted to learn from it, today only test is important.
Everything is designed to create a comformist generation of kids not ready to challenge the status quo.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 03 2009 at 12:31
|
|
|
|
fuxi
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2459
|
Posted: June 04 2009 at 02:08 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Everything is designed to create a comformist generation of kids not ready to challenge the status quo. |
Your fascinating description of today's bland campus life equally applies to the U.K., I think. All the media here are dominated by uninspiring (or totally manufactured) copycat artists and bands. It can't be a coincidence that England is one of the worst countries for prog right now. People just don't have the GUTS.
|
|
StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
|
Posted: June 04 2009 at 06:53 |
fuxi wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Everything is designed to create a comformist generation of kids not ready to challenge the status quo. |
Your fascinating description of today's bland campus life equally applies to the U.K., I think. All the media here are dominated by uninspiring (or totally manufactured) copycat artists and bands. It can't be a coincidence that England is one of the worst countries for prog right now. People just don't have the GUTS. |
I think it's a reflection of the power that record companies and mainstream media have over people. It's not about having guts, IMO, its about being force fed the same old dumbed down crap. If Prog was promoted, you'd see more artists emerge in this genre. As of now, you have to hope the youth stumble onto it and find it amazing.
|
|
|
|
Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
|
Posted: June 04 2009 at 06:59 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
fuxi wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Everything is designed to create a comformist generation of kids not ready to challenge the status quo. |
Your fascinating description of today's bland campus life equally applies to the U.K., I think. All the media here are dominated by uninspiring (or totally manufactured) copycat artists and bands. It can't be a coincidence that England is one of the worst countries for prog right now. People just don't have the GUTS. |
I think it's a reflection of the power that record companies and mainstream media have over people. It's not about having guts, IMO, its about being force fed the same old dumbed down crap. If Prog was promoted, you'd see more artists emerge in this genre. As of now, you have to hope the youth stumble onto it and find it amazing. |
Guys, Ivan's quote describes the majority of today's youth (present company excepted, of course  ) to a T - and not just in relation to their musical taste. Sorry for being a bit too blunt, but I don't really believe in the concept of 'force feeding' people... We were born with brains, and we do have a choice. No one is forced to spend hours watching TV reality shows, or listening to crap music. It's just that for people (young and otherwise) it is often easier and more convenient to choose the path of least resistance.
|
|
StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
|
Posted: June 04 2009 at 07:05 |
Raff wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
fuxi wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Everything is designed to create a comformist generation of kids not ready to challenge the status quo. |
Your fascinating description of today's bland campus life equally applies to the U.K., I think. All the media here are dominated by uninspiring (or totally manufactured) copycat artists and bands. It can't be a coincidence that England is one of the worst countries for prog right now. People just don't have the GUTS. |
I think it's a reflection of the power that record companies and mainstream media have over people. It's not about having guts, IMO, its about being force fed the same old dumbed down crap. If Prog was promoted, you'd see more artists emerge in this genre. As of now, you have to hope the youth stumble onto it and find it amazing. |
Guys, Ivan's quote describes the majority of today's youth (present company excepted, of course) to a T - and not just in relation to their musical taste. Sorry for being a bit too blunt, but I don't really believe in the concept of 'force feeding' people... We were born with brains, and we do have a choice. No one is forced to spend hours watching TV reality shows, or listening to crap music. It's just that for people (young and otherwise) it is often easier and more convenient to choose the path of least resistance.
|
The evidence is all around you. Surely you can see it. There are some who will be the nonconformists and listen to odd music, but it is an American Idol world. You can't deny that based on it's popularity. And who ends up winning these competitions? The really creative types or the ones that comply with the force fed genres (pop/rap/country)?
|
|
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
|
Posted: June 04 2009 at 13:31 |
When I see this kids in the university, I wish I could slap them in the face and tell them to dare be young, that this is the moment of their lives to be rebels against the system, to fight for what they believe is right, because when they have a wife/husband and kids, will sadly be absorbed by the system.
Doesn't matter in what they believe as long as they believe in something!!!!
But no, they don't have deep beliefs, they are happy with the cafeteria with plasma and cheap burgers plus of course their Ipod that they use even to sleep.
This kids are loosing an important part of their lifes.
Iván
|
|
|
|
kiwi
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 05 2008
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 127
|
Posted: June 04 2009 at 13:49 |
The evidence is all around you. Surely you can see it. There are some who will be the nonconformists and listen to odd music, but it is an American Idol world. You can't deny that based on it's popularity. And who ends up winning these competitions? The really creative types or the ones that comply with the force fed genres (pop/rap/country)? [/QUOTE] We need to remember that rap can be progressive too. A artist has recently transcended the formula of rapping in videos illustrated by bling, scantily clad females and expensive cars by rapping about a boat - "look at my motherf**king boat" surely this is progress
|
|
We, verily, have made music as a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they may be lifted up unto the realm on high.. (Baha'u'llah)
music
|
|
lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13608
|
Posted: June 04 2009 at 13:56 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
When I see this kids in the university, I wish I could slap them in the face and tell them to dare be young, that this is the moment of their lives to be rebels against the system, to fight for what they believe is right, because when they have a wife/husband and kids, will sadly be absorbed by the system.
Doesn't matter in what they believe as long as they believe in something!!!!
But no, they don't have deep beliefs, they are happy with the cafeteria with plasma and cheap burgers plus of course their Ipod that they use even to sleep.
This kids are loosing an important part of their lifes.
Iván |
Ivan, I can see where you are coming from, and I feel the same way in my darker moments, especially when contemplating the amount of people who watch rubbish soaps, American Idol ( et al), or read pulp celebrity mags. However, I hope it will cheer you up a bit on this subject when I tell you that at my trade union's annual conference a couple of weeks ago, I was very struck by the number of new, and, importantly, YOUNG delegates present, all of whom were passionate about moving the concept of trade unionism and progressive politics forward in the future. In addition, the driving forces behind the campaign against the Iraq War and other issues such as persecution of workers in Columbia are very much led by the younger generation of political activists. I don't always agree with their personal politics, but I do see a lot of hope for the future. The younger activists I know are passionate, literate, intelligent, and care. We'll be alright.
|
|
Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
|
|
kiwi
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 05 2008
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 127
|
Posted: June 04 2009 at 13:58 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
When I see this kids in the university, I wish I could slap them in the face and tell them to dare be young, that this is the moment of their lives to be rebels against the system, to fight for what they believe is right, because when they have a wife/husband and kids, will sadly be absorbed by the system.
Doesn't matter in what they believe as long as they believe in something!!!!
But no, they don't have deep beliefs, they are happy with the cafeteria with plasma and cheap burgers plus of course their Ipod that they use even to sleep.
This kids are loosing an important part of their lifes.
Iván |
In some ways this takes us back to the origins of this discussion. There is no ideological vacuum. What we are witnessing is the triumph of materialism and consumerism. Hopefully this will not last long. Humanity needs spiritual aspirations. Commercial music is often the anthem of consumerism. Prog includes a rich vein of protest or critique but more importantly for me, spiritual aspiration. Ivan, I don't like the inference that life is over when you are married with a family. For me my adult years are where I have found my voice.
|
|
We, verily, have made music as a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they may be lifted up unto the realm on high.. (Baha'u'llah)
music
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
|
Posted: June 04 2009 at 16:01 |
kiwi wrote:
Ivan, I don't like the inference that life is over when you are married with a family. For me my adult years are where I have found my voice.
|
Never said life uis over, what i said is that when you marry and have kids you have other priorities than fightiing against windmills.
You have to accept the status quo and live with it if you want to feed your family, even the most raicals in the university have a job from the society they despised so much in our student's days, the most radicals who hated private property in all it's forms, work for ONGs and have huge salaries.
I thought I was going to be a lawyer to fight for justice, but with the age you discover justice is more elastic than you ever imagined.
Of course i refuse to take drug traffic, rape or pedophilia ceses, but I take cases where my client is not as perfect as he could be.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 04 2009 at 16:32
|
|
|
|
Alberto Muńoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
|
Posted: June 04 2009 at 16:12 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
kiwi wrote:
Ivan, I don't like the inference that life is over when you are married with a family. For me my adult years are where I have found my voice.
|
Never said life uis over, what i said is that when you marry and have kids you have other priorities than fightiing against widmills.
You have to accept the status quo and live with it if you want to feed your family, even the most raicals in the univerity have a job from the society they despissed so much in our student's days, the most radicals who hated `private property in all it's forms, work for ONGs and have huge salaries.
|
Right Ivan , as latinoamerican people we have some things in common (of course the languages), and the social and economic politics always hit us in many many ways, here in México almost every 6 years.
And yes when we have a family to maintain your priorities changed almost radically, many people who have not family to support or are single, have a really hard time to understand when you talk about the maintenance of a family because they have to live that to understand us.
Edited by Alberto Muńoz - June 04 2009 at 16:13
|
|
|
|
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Religious lyrics ?
