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lucas 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 06 2004
Location: France
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Points: 8138
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 Posted: May 25 2009 at 16:18 |
Without punk we wouldn't have any tech thrash/death band, no avant-garde like John Zorn's Painkiller, no Cardiacs, no Mars Volta and the likes. No smashing pumpkins, no alternative rock, no Nirvana, no Kiling Joke...
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: SanDiegoTijuana
Status: Offline
Points: 4373
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 16:22 |
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A world without John Zorn, Cardiacs or Killing Joke would be awful. A world without Mars Volta, Smashing Pumpkins or Nirvana, however.....
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13699
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 16:25 |
Sorry Lucas, couldn't disagree more. Thrash metal and death bands would, and indeed did, have mutated from stuff as far back as Sabbath in the early '70's. Mars Volta could be seen as a Crimson influenced band, alternative rock has existed since the beginning of time, or certainly Jerry Lee ranting against Elvis hegemony  . Punk was really in the UK a media led vehicle for a bunch of mainly art school t**sers wanting to make a name for themselves. Most of them, with a couple of notable exceptions, were utterly useless, and, thank God, it failed in its stated aim of getting rid of the music we worship on this site. Rotten asvertising butter anyone? 
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 16:27 |
I've always viewed punk as just being trendy when it first came out. To this very day, I still have better things to do with my musical time. I got turned on to PIL's Compact Disc recently and liked it. From what I've heard Lydon hated it. Go figure.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 17:51 |
 WalterDigsTunes wrote:
A world without John Zorn, Cardiacs or Killing Joke would be awful. A world without Mars Volta, Smashing Pumpkins or Nirvana, however..... |
Would be VERY awful.
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 17:58 |
lazland wrote:
Sorry Lucas, couldn't disagree more. Thrash metal and death bands would, and indeed did, have mutated from stuff as far back as Sabbath in the early '70's. Mars Volta could be seen as a Crimson influenced band, alternative rock has existed since the beginning of time, or certainly Jerry Lee ranting against Elvis hegemony .
Punk was really in the UK a media led vehicle for a bunch of mainly art school t**sers wanting to make a name for themselves. Most of them, with a couple of notable exceptions, were utterly useless, and, thank God, it failed in its stated aim of getting rid of the music we worship on this site.
Rotten asvertising butter anyone?
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Influence is influence, you can't discredit one genres influence just because of another genres influence. Mars Volta have more than just prog influences and that all goes into their sound, including the punk. Thrash metal was for the most part a fusion of metal and punk. So it wouldn't exist without punk.
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WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: SanDiegoTijuana
Status: Offline
Points: 4373
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 17:58 |
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Utopia
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 18:01 |
Well, to be honestr I like Rock (Prog and almost all Rock), Jazz and even some Pop, but Punk is something I could never resist, IMO represents total lack of musicianship (I believe musicisnshuip maters), skills, imagination and quality.
I even like some sub.products of Punk like a couple New Wave bands, because they added interest and varuiety to that twio chords structure.
So I really never noticed it existed, here in Perú it was almost ignored, and i thank God for that.
Iván
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 18:01 |
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
Utopia |
Smashing Pumpkins are in my top 10 bands. 
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 18:30 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Well, to be honestr I like Rock (Prog and almost all Rock), Jazz and even some Pop, but Punk is something I could never resist, IMO represents total lack of musicianship (I believe musicisnshuip maters), skills, imagination and quality.
I even like some sub.products of Punk like a couple New Wave bands, because they added interest and varuiety to that twio chords structure.
So I really never noticed it existed, here in Perú it was almost ignored, and i thank God for that.
Iván |
Punk isn't defined by a lack of musicianship so much as it's defined by attitude, which doesn't always have to come out as sloppy, loud, fast paced music, because that's not all that punk is. And thus, punk bands can be good musicians and such bands do exist.
Punk is actually very diverse. Sex Pistols just make up the stereotypical image of a punk band much in the same way ELP make up the stereotypical image of a prog band. But there's much more to it than that.
The music people associate with punk the most is the early stuff like Sex Pistols, The Damned, The Clash.
But it evolved greatly over time. To include things like...
New wave.
Mixed punk with pop, reggae and world music. This includes Talkings Heads, The Police and XTC.
Post punk,
Mixed punk with a range of genres including avant garde, funk, reggae, krautrock and sometimes even prog. Joy Division, Gang of Four and Public Image Ltd are good examples of post punk bands. These guys influened goth rock bands like The Cure, and a lot of alternative and indie rock.
Hardcore
80s hardcore saw a very diverse movement of punk bands. Including Minutemen, X and Dead Kennedys. And then post hardcore like Fugazi. Which has now found it's way in some prog bands like The Mars Volta and The Fall of Troy.
2 Tone
Mixed punk with ska, dub, reggae and other carribean genres. Defined by groups like The Beat and The Specials.
Psychobilly
Mixes punk with early rock n roll music. The Cramps being the best example.
Celtic punk
Mixes punk with celtic folk. The Pogues pretty much invented it.
Just to name a few.
Those that I've mentioned specifically were actually pretty talented or at least decent musicians. People need to realise that Ramones, Clash and Sex Pistols merely laid out the ground work. Many more bands would expand upon it. And if you gave it a chance you might even find something you'd like.
Edited by boo boo - May 25 2009 at 18:43
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 19:10 |
Saaay, you don't currently have a safety pin sticking through your cheek? 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 19:15 |
boo boo wrote:
[
Punk isn't defined by a lack of musicianship so much as it's defined by attitude, which doesn't always have to come out as sloppy, loud, fast paced music, because that's not all that punk is. And thus, punk bands can be good musicians and such bands do exist.
Punk is actually very diverse. Sex Pistols just make up the stereotypical image of a punk band much in the same way ELP make up the stereotypical image of a prog band. But there's much more to it than that.
The music people associate with punk the most is the early stuff like Sex Pistols, The Damned, The Clash.
But it evolved greatly over time. To include things like...
New wave.
Mixed punk with pop, reggae and world music. This includes Talkings Heads, The Police and XTC.
Post punk,
Mixed punk with a range of genres including avant garde, funk, reggae, krautrock and sometimes even prog. Joy Division, Gang of Four and Public Image Ltd are good examples of post punk bands. These guys influened goth rock bands like The Cure, and a lot of alternative and indie rock.
Hardcore
80s hardcore saw a very diverse movement of punk bands. Including Minutemen, X and Dead Kennedys. And then post hardcore like Fugazi. Which has now found it's way in some prog bands like The Mars Volta and The Fall of Troy.
2 Tone
Mixed punk with ska, dub, reggae and other carribean genres. Defined by groups like The Beat and The Specials.
Psychobilly
Mixes punk with early rock n roll music. The Cramps being the best example.
Celtic punk
Mixes punk with celtic folk. The Pogues pretty much invented it.
Just to name a few.
Those that I've mentioned specifically were actually pretty talented or at least decent musicians. People need to realise that Ramones, Clash and Sex Pistols merely laid out the ground work. Many more bands would expand upon it. And if you gave it a chance you might even find something you'd like. |
Punk is the 77 - 78 phenomenom, and was pretty mediocre IMHO, the oher genres you mention are not Punk, are musical styles or forms that evolved from Punk but mixed with elements of different genres.
As I said I like some new Wave bands, but they have as much from mainstream as from Punk.
For people who like Punk, it may be defined by an attitude, for me the original Punks (Not different genres that evolved from a mix of Punk and anythjing), are defined by mediocrity.
That's my opinion.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 25 2009 at 19:19
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 19:16 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Saaay, you don't currently have a safety pin sticking through your cheek?  |
Nope.
Granted I don't wear sparkly cloaks or cod pieces either.
Edited by boo boo - May 25 2009 at 19:19
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 19:27 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
boo boo wrote:
[
Punk isn't defined by a lack of musicianship so much as it's defined by attitude, which doesn't always have to come out as sloppy, loud, fast paced music, because that's not all that punk is. And thus, punk bands can be good musicians and such bands do exist.
Punk is actually very diverse. Sex Pistols just make up the stereotypical image of a punk band much in the same way ELP make up the stereotypical image of a prog band. But there's much more to it than that.
The music people associate with punk the most is the early stuff like Sex Pistols, The Damned, The Clash.
But it evolved greatly over time. To include things like...
New wave.
Mixed punk with pop, reggae and world music. This includes Talkings Heads, The Police and XTC.
Post punk,
Mixed punk with a range of genres including avant garde, funk, reggae, krautrock and sometimes even prog. Joy Division, Gang of Four and Public Image Ltd are good examples of post punk bands. These guys influened goth rock bands like The Cure, and a lot of alternative and indie rock.
Hardcore
80s hardcore saw a very diverse movement of punk bands. Including Minutemen, X and Dead Kennedys. And then post hardcore like Fugazi. Which has now found it's way in some prog bands like The Mars Volta and The Fall of Troy.
2 Tone
Mixed punk with ska, dub, reggae and other carribean genres. Defined by groups like The Beat and The Specials.
Psychobilly
Mixes punk with early rock n roll music. The Cramps being the best example.
Celtic punk
Mixes punk with celtic folk. The Pogues pretty much invented it.
Just to name a few.
Those that I've mentioned specifically were actually pretty talented or at least decent musicians. People need to realise that Ramones, Clash and Sex Pistols merely laid out the ground work. Many more bands would expand upon it. And if you gave it a chance you might even find something you'd like. |
Punk is the 77 - 78 phenomenom, and was pretty mediocre IMHO, the oher genres you mention are not Punk, are musical styles or forms that evolved from Punk but mixed with elements of different genres.
As I said I like some new Wave bands, but they have as much from mainstream as from Punk.
For people who like Punk, it may be defined by an attitude, for me the original Punks (Not different genres that evolved from a mix of Punk and anythjing), are defined by mediocrity.
That's my opinion.
Iván |
New wave may be an exception, you could call that more of a spinoff, like how prog spun off of psychedelic rock. But it still owes much of it's existance to punk.
Punk is used to describe a very diverse genre of music, much like metal and prog. You seem to be associating punk only with the early bands. But it's grown into a much larger genre since then.
The others I mentioned are undeniably sub-genres of punk. It's very common for all the bands I mentioned to simply be called "punk" bands. Post punk and Hardcore are especially direct predecessors to the original punk movement. As for fusion genres like those I mentioned, it's common for sub-genres to any genre to bring something new into the mix. But just like folk metal is still metal and prog folk is still prog. Ska punk and celtic punk are still punk.
Edited by boo boo - May 25 2009 at 19:36
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 19:42 |
boo boo wrote:
No, they're all sub-genres of punk. They add other genres into the mix but that's how sub-genres are born. Punk has many sub-genres, while they tend to be fusion genres, they're still very much a part of punk. |
You say it's a sub-genre, i say all are independent genres that have connection with Punk, as much as with other genres.
But all of them exceed largely what Punk means, their ideology and their musical conception. Or do you believe ther's any connection between Blondie and Sex Pistols?
boo boo wrote:
Saying celtic punk is not punk because it mixes it with folk would be like saying prog folk isn't prog for the same reason. |
Celtic Punk may be an exception, because it's simply a local form of Punk.
boo boo wrote:
New wave may be an exception, you could call that more of a spinoff, like how prog spun off of psychedelic rock. But it still owes much of it's existance to punk. |
Nobody denies they owe something to Punk, but also to other genres.
Iván
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mrcozdude
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 25 2007
Location: Devon,UK.
Status: Offline
Points: 2078
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 19:56 |
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Punk was an important movement,one which knocked pretentious a****les like ourselves on our ass.I mean come on King Arthur on ice?!? Something had to be done.
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 20:02 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
boo boo wrote:
No, they're all sub-genres of punk. They add other genres into the mix but that's how sub-genres are born. Punk has many sub-genres, while they tend to be fusion genres, they're still very much a part of punk. |
You say it's a sub-genre, i say all are independent genres that have connection with Punk, as much as with other genres.
But all of them exceed largely what Punk means, their ideology and their musical conception. Or do you believe ther's any connection between Blondie and Sex Pistols?
boo boo wrote:
Saying celtic punk is not punk because it mixes it with folk would be like saying prog folk isn't prog for the same reason. |
Celtic Punk may be an exception, because it's simply a local form of Punk.
boo boo wrote:
New wave may be an exception, you could call that more of a spinoff, like how prog spun off of psychedelic rock. But it still owes much of it's existance to punk. |
Nobody denies they owe something to Punk, but also to other genres.
Iván |
They still put more emphasis on punk than the other genres. I guess I chose my words poorly, they didn't just mix punk with these other genres, rather they take those different styles and put them into a punk rock context. That's why they count as punk.
Prog bands mix many genres, but they still count as prog. And thus any genre can be supplemented into punk rock and it still counts as punk rock.
Edited by boo boo - May 25 2009 at 20:06
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 20:13 |
Guess we must agree to disagree Boo Boo.
Iván
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Zargus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 08 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 3491
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Posted: May 26 2009 at 11:31 |
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Right now im very into green day, never realy ceared for em before but i heard a song by em on the radio that sounded almost like punk/prog, so i yust hade to buy thire newest album and american idiot, becaus i was sure the song must be on ither of those and i have to say they are realy good, i never been a big punk fan but since i try to be openminded about music and try difrent stuff i heard most of the big names and kinda like most of it.
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himtroy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1601
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Posted: May 26 2009 at 19:41 |
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I would hardly even call Green Day punk anymore. They're just a bunch of pretty boy pop stars to me
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