Western civilization: Important societies

USA! USA! USA!

Erm... Italy, France and England are all, to differing extents, pieces of the Roman Empire. Some were peripheral, others were central. The development of modern nation states in these zones is fairly recent (mere centuries), and if we rewind 1,500 years, the British isles consists of a slew of warring tribes, France consists of Franks and other tribes and Italy just barely saw the end of the Roman Empire at the hands of the Goths. Ultimately, I think you should've broken this up into two questions: which ancient civilization did more, and which modern one do you see as most important.

Greece, if only because they got 90% of civilized society right, and then we spent the next 2000 years f**king it up and rebuilding it.

England of course  hahaha.  I can here my neighbours (Scots, Welsh etc) just seething with rage over this question!  Ha ha!  Anyway the Brits invented : Prog, Football (The original not what the Americans laughingly call football) (The one EVERYBODY else plays), the sandwich, TV, etc Oh and Cricket ha ha.  What did the Romans do for us?

Teeth? Yes I know we have dodgy teeth, agreed.  Thats cos we've got more important things to think about than what our smiles look like.    I notice the questioner didn't even concider the USA in his list. 

I'd put Greece and Rome on pretty even footing. But Greece did a lot of things first whereas the Romans copied them and improved on their ideas. So Greece it is.

I like all,

Greeks gave us epic poetry, philosophy, history, music theory, the democratic system and they had great artists.

The Romans also had artists just as good, but they had better architects: they invented mortar, the arch, the vault, the dome. They projected and implemented vital stuff like the aquaducts, viaducts, stadiums. They had a great knowledge on how to run a state (but had a lot of terrible emperors) and they left us with Roman Law. Also their language stands at the foundation of a lot of modern languages.

The French shown a lot of style, and later even had some great artists. The women in Paris and France in general are the most beautiful I've ever seen.

The English had Rock, Prog and English Humour, so they win.

Romans kicked butt, man. As a semi-linguist, it's fun to see how just how powerful of a language Latin was and has been to this day. Cool stuff. It's kind of a toss up in general, though, between Rome and Greece. Greece was first and Rome built off a lot of it. It's hard to say.

birdwithteeth11 wrote: I'd put Greece and Rome on pretty even footing. But Greece did a lot of things first whereas the Romans copied them and improved on their ideas. So Greece it is.

This is a very typical approach to history. Greece was to Rome what Rome is to us today (and there are more of us). But that's just a superficial approach.

Greece was a Polis culture, i.e. vast wilderness doted with a few tiny slave labor and peasant requisition supported cities who formed no whole country or nation. It had limited grasp and nothing compared to the Macedonian Empire or later Roman Empire. While the Greek economy was the most advanced of the time other major civilizations competed with Greece: the Egyptians and Persians for example. The Persians are major Eastern civilization and it was the Persians who almost conquered Greece, not the other way round.

Almost everything with Greece is overemphasised. Even compared to other epochs the ruling class has been bloated in historical consciousness to the point of obscuring how it teetered on a primitive and volatile base. Athens is overemphaized. A single dot on the dark, dark map, its "democratic" council of lord slave/landowners was a product of its secure economic position. Otherwise Greece was ruled by Oligarchy and Tyrants, with only a brief "golden age." Greece was a virtual annex of Macedonia and Rome for the following millenia.

Rome built a centralized world empire of millions of people, excelled to a point infinitely beyond the Greeks in all aspects of technology and culture, build vast townships, cities, incorporated thousands of distinict nationalities, brought every great empire down to its knees and incorporated them. It build roads that crisscrosed the world, great ships and endless documentation and education. It converted 30% of the known world's population into slaves to propel its economy. It established an economy that reached the far reaches of Asia and was integrated with Rome. Rome and Constantiople were like New York if you take Athens as a small town. Compared to the running strip at Olympus They had sports arenas that sat hundreds of thousands: like the Coliseum and the HIppodrome at Constantinople.

For a thousand years after the fall of Rome the Byzantine Empire remained the most powerful and richest country in Europe - until the 1500s. The Holy Roman Empire, the biggest nation in Europe proper (germany and surronding areas) continued the traditions of Rome and operated with its name. This was the most powerful nation in Europe proper until the 1700s. Charlemange made himself the Roman Emperor, Rome continued as the base of the Vatican and the whole of western Christianity. Papal authority commanded all Kings. From Constantinople the Eastern Orthodox religion was run.

The Crusades came from both of their authorities.

I could go on. 

rpe9p wrote: I think this thread needs to turn into a debate about health care in the US.  I think the US was excluded from this poll because it does not have universal health care and is therefore not an important society.

wow....Internet Hero in the making.


Actually the US should be here.
The Declaration of Independence and Constitution have been pretty important documents.