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ten years after 
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 Posted: April 04 2009 at 05:25 |
 Roj M30 wrote:
An interesting debate here over the relative merits of the major players on SEBTP.
Here's my take, I rate them in this order:-
1. Cinema Show 10/10
2. Firth Of Fifth 9.75/10
3. Dancing With The Moonlit Knight 9.25/10
4. Battle Of Epping Forest 8/10
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Same order for those tracks but i would insert After the Ordeal in 3rd spot.
IMO it's not the greatest prog album (nor the greatest Genesis album) but it's in the 'premier league'. It doesn't seem at all strange that many people think it is.
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A B Negative
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Posted: April 06 2009 at 04:26 |
Is Selling England really the greatest prog album?
Possibly. Probably. Arguably. Occasionally.
Easier to listen to than Trespass.
Better songs than Nursery Cryme or Foxtrot.
Less sprawling than The Lamb.
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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."
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Petrovsk Mizinski
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Posted: April 06 2009 at 05:27 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
Nah, but hey, at least it's better than CTTE. |
wat
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Keltic
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Posted: April 06 2009 at 05:48 |
Is SEBTP the best progressive rock ever ?
What a daft question.
Why is it a daft question ? Well, there is no scientific formula or measuring device which can answer such a question.
It is, as ever, all down to a matter of taste.
If you ( yes YOU out there ! ) think, believe or have decided it is the best prog album ever, then how can anyone disagree - and there dear folks, is the rub !
It is a great album, but I happen to prefer two other Genesis albums over it ; namely, The Lamb Lies Down and Foxtrot. That doesn't mean my opinion holds any more clout than those who prefer Selling England.
I also prefer tinned baked beans over tinned spaghetti. Doesn't mean the Spaghetti lovers have got it all wrong - just means that my palate ( and theirs ) is slightly different, if you see what what I mean. All in the taste of the taster. 
Edited by Keltic - April 06 2009 at 05:49
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chopper
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Posted: April 06 2009 at 06:40 |
Keltic wrote:
Is SEBTP the best progressive rock ever ?
What a daft question.
Why is it a daft question ? Well, there is no scientific formula or measuring device which can answer such a question.
It is, as ever, all down to a matter of taste.
If you ( yes YOU out there ! ) think, believe or have decided it is the best prog album ever, then how can anyone disagree - and there dear folks, is the rub !
It is a great album, but I happen to prefer two other Genesis albums over it ; namely, The Lamb Lies Down and Foxtrot. That doesn't mean my opinion holds any more clout than those who prefer Selling England.
I also prefer tinned baked beans over tinned spaghetti. Doesn't mean the Spaghetti lovers have got it all wrong - just means that my palate ( and theirs ) is slightly different, if you see what what I mean. All in the taste of the taster. |
At last, someone realises the truth. Well put, sir (and I'm not referring to beans).
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: April 06 2009 at 07:01 |
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For me, SEBTP is a damn fine album to be sure BUT it does contain the odd lurking pile of poo re "More Fool Me' and 'the Battle of Epping Forest' the latter being perhaps the weakest of all the large scale Genesis concept pieces y'all ?
Interestingly, it's also one of the longest single album prog classics out there, clocking in at over 53 minutes, but hey, we don't measure music by the yard round here do we ?.
Edited by ExittheLemming - April 06 2009 at 07:03
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el dingo
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Posted: April 06 2009 at 09:00 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
For me, SEBTP is a damn fine album to be sure BUT it does contain the odd lurking pile of poo re "More Fool Me' and 'the Battle of Epping Forest' the latter being perhaps the weakest of all the large scale Genesis concept pieces y'all ?
Interestingly, it's also one of the longest single album prog classics out there, clocking in at over 53 minutes, but hey, we don't measure music by the yard round here do we ?.
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More Fool Me = poo. Can't agree about Battle of Epping Forest - grew up round that area and the lyrics carry it for me. No we should never measure music by the yard... the metre... or indeed the cubit 
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It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough.
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J-Man
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Posted: April 10 2009 at 06:46 |
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SgtPepper67
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Posted: April 10 2009 at 09:47 |
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I don't know if it's the greatest prog albums, but it's definitely one of the greatest and no one can deny it's one of the albums that defined prog.
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In the end the love you take is equal to the love you made...
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A B Negative
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Posted: April 11 2009 at 05:12 |
el dingo wrote:
More Fool Me = poo. |
IMHO More Fool Me is one of the rare occasions where Collins doesn't sound smug but actually sounds vulnerable and believable.
Is MFM disliked because it isn't full of literary allusions, isn't in 7/8, and only lasts slightly more than 3 minutes? Or is it because it's a love song? We all know proggers' minds are on higher things than mere emotion!
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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."
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Zargus
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Posted: April 11 2009 at 06:56 |
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I gues its up there among the best ones but the absolutly best one i dont think it is. There is too many great albums to yust name one the best ever.
Edited by Zargus - April 11 2009 at 06:58
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American Khatru
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Posted: April 11 2009 at 07:35 |
(opinionated  )
crimson87 wrote:
... Some of [SEbtP] songs are a total yawn (  ) to me. The production is impeccable, but it lacks the power Nursery Cryme for example has. Alongside BSS , Close to the Edge is the most representative prog album because Prog is about strong love hate reactions , either you love it to death or you can't stand it. Listen to the Hammond solo in the middle of CTTE or the outro of And you and I. That's so over the top , it represents prog extravaganza much better than SEBTP which can pass as a refined rock album. |
I'm coming in very late to this thread, and no one has any reason to care what another person thinks at this point (since it has all been said), but I do want to point out Crimson87 for special mention. Along with the point made by so many others of the futility of the question in the final analysis, and the fact that "most popular" does not spell best, Crimson87 would seem to stand alone (unless I missed something). Prog is extravaganza, or I'll refine it by saying "measured extravaganza." CTTE is total - there is no way around this. It is, IMO, the greatest (whether or not most popular) because each minute is true to the last, period. In a word, it's perfect. SEBTP does at times let down, and I can't even listen to More Fool Me anymore. Come to think of it, I'm not sure what makes SEBTP a better album than Foxtrot in people's eyes; for myself, I love every minute of Foxtrot.
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SgtPepper67
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Posted: April 11 2009 at 09:01 |
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I think More Fool Me is a great song. It's not one of the stand out tracks on the album, but it has a great melody and Phil's voice sound pretty good. But it seems prog fans can't just appreciate a nice melody if it's not in a weird time signature or doesn't last at least 8 minutes. I always like that kind of simple songs in the middle of prog albums, it's related with what we're talking in the other topic about the "listener fatigue" cos usually they made the albums more balanced instead of being everything so unnecessary complex and long.
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In the end the love you take is equal to the love you made...
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American Khatru
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Posted: April 11 2009 at 11:57 |
Of course everyone's entitled to their opinion. "More Fool Me" however is not so great because, well, despite its merits it is just sentimental, a sentimental track on an otherwise pretty high-minded album. The lyrics are really nothing, showing what would come once he took the helm full time. As for its being the simple song in the middle, I get the need for those completely. I enjoy the bar-room brawl tunes that ELP would throw into their otherwise weighty records (it somehow comes off as having more integrity though than Collins's thing), or "Ognuno Sa" (Everyone Knows) in Reale Accademia di Musica, not to mention every little tuneful melody that comes along in Tull's work (the return-sections of Thick As A Brick come to mind, or a stand-alone tune like "Wond'ring Aloud"). This prog fan, and I think more of us than you give credit to, does very much "appreciate a nice melody if it's not in a weird time signature or doesn't last at least 8 minutes." I hope I didn't come off as upset, because I'm not. Just a'bloggin'. Believe me, I wish I was in your fair country right now instead of mine. Then we could just talk about all this over an amazing steak. 
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J-Man
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Posted: April 16 2009 at 15:27 |
cacho wrote:
progrocker2244 wrote:
SilverEclipse wrote:
I find it to be incredibly overrated. "The Battle Of Epping Forest" and "The Cinema Show", taking up over 20 minutes of the album, meander all over the place and never pull me in like "Supper's Ready".
Foxtrot is better and I can think of a sh*tload of other ones.
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Cinema Show is AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!! I agree somewhat about Epping Forest and that it's overrated, but you can't criticize Cinema Show.
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Huh?  Battle of Epping Forest overrated? If there's one song in SEBTP which is under-appreciated, it's Battle of Epping of Forest, almost no one mentions it as a killer track from SEBTP, neither from Genesis' catalogue.
When I first heard SEBTP, my faves were the first 2 classics, Dancing with the Moonlit Knight and Firth of Fifth, now they're the other 2, Cinema Show and Epping Forest, simply stunning, of course, I do still love Firth of Fifth, though lost my love for Dancing, and I kind of think it's overrated.
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Nothing on SEBTP, even More Fool Me, is under-rated. It's the highest rated prog album in the history of the world, and 74% of the people on this site that have rated it gave it 5/5 stars. Epping Forest may not get as much praise as Cinema Show, but you will hear people talk about that before anything that doesn't involve Yes, Genesis, Gentle Giant, King Crimson, and Van der Graaf Generator.
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The Quiet One
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Posted: April 16 2009 at 15:34 |
A B Negative wrote:
el dingo wrote:
More Fool Me = poo. |
IMHO More Fool Me is one of the rare occasions where Collins doesn't sound smug but actually sounds vulnerable and believable.
Is MFM disliked because it isn't full of literary allusions, isn't in 7/8, and only lasts slightly more than 3 minutes? Or is it because it's a love song? We all know proggers' minds are on higher things than mere emotion! |
No it's not because, well at least not for me. It just doesn't suit the album AT ALL. If it were in ATTW or W&W alongside Your Own Special Way, or even in Trick of the Tail, it would fit much better. I don't find it seriously bad as some may believe so, it's just that I skip it because when I turn on SEBTP, it's because I want some awesome Prog.
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Vibrationbaby
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Posted: April 16 2009 at 15:37 |
Petrovsk Mizinski wrote:
No.
I can think of about 100 albums I like a lot better.
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I second that.
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Negoba
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Posted: April 16 2009 at 15:50 |
Every few pages when this thread is revived I have to chime in....
Yes.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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lazland
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Posted: April 16 2009 at 17:23 |
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More Fool Me was not actually the first Phil Collins vocal for Genesis - that honour lay with For Absent Friends. Also, one of the main reasons it was put on both the album and the subsequent set list was to enable Gabriel to have a break and change out of and into the increasingly elaborate costumes he was wearing when performing. As such, it was, I suppose, an interlude, but certainly the live set on the first Genesis Archives boxset proves that it became quite a bit more than this - Collins was excellent singing it and it became a huge favourite.
Audiences in the '70's rallied to this track, and it is beyond me why we can't do the same 36 years later. I love it because it is well played, Collins sings superbly, and it is very much an atypical Genesis track, which proved that they were prepared to go out of the box, as it were, in their delivery of albums. I suspect that some of the Collins comments are more to do with people's dislike and distrust of later Genesis LPs than they are with this particular track, per se.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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American Khatru
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Posted: April 16 2009 at 19:12 |
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Lazland makes a great point here. We really should, as prog listeners (read: thinking listeners), remember things within their context. I grew up on prog, but was too young and did not have the honor of seeing those great shows - and what shows they must have been, with PG in those costumes and the awesome musicianship all around!
Well, I still find More Fool Me a little grating when I turn to that album, but I'm sure I'm simultaneously, helplessly thinking forward to the betrayal (if that isn't too strong) of the later albums.
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Is Selling England really the greatest prog album?
