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Negoba 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5210 |
 Posted: March 26 2009 at 19:19 |
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Guys, the math already has identified the answer to this with the advent of chaos theory, and it can actually be broken down into pretty understandable sense. The entire universe is a combination of randomness which operates within boundary conditions. No boundary is absolute, and given a certain catalyst energy, a set condition can reach some very interesting combinations.
That is to say, that the boundaries on your choices are hard but not absolute. Within those boundaries is quite a bit of freedom. The more you push against the boundaries, the less choice you actually have.
I could babble on forever on this subject, but it actually is very close to my current religious beliefs so I get worked up....
It's called complexity theory, edge of chaos....if anyone's interested we can explore the rabbit hole. Must not be afraid of math to enter.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 27 2005 Location: Nauru Status: Offline Points: 46301 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 19:23 |
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I'm a firm believer that we make a choice, out of more or less many possible, each moment - but I don't know where that falls exactly here (depends on the definitions and the relation with the act of choosing, I guess). But since I don't buy the "everything in the future is predetermined/predestined" very much, I guess I'm advocating free will more comfortably.
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rpe9p
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: December 31 2008 Location: Charlottesville Status: Offline Points: 485 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 19:36 |
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Determinism is way more fun to argue, but I believe in free will because of my religious beliefs. I believe my consciousness is what gives me free will and that it not something which can be physically nailed down with science (at least yet).
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32550 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 20:01 |
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Determinism makes Freewill possible- see Daniel Dennet's Freedom Evolves.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: March 29 2009 at 10:25 |
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I don't understand determinists. Kind of sickening that it's winning.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
Posted: March 31 2009 at 01:17 |
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Queen By-Tor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 13 2006 Location: Xanadu Status: Offline Points: 16111 |
Posted: March 31 2009 at 02:29 |
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*Tries to avoid making a connection to the Rush song of the same name*
Personally I don't believe in destiny, or a guiding hand of fate - I don't believe in forever or love as a mystical state. I don't believe in the stars or the planets, or angels watching from above ... (so far so good) ... After all, there are those who think that life is nothing left to chance, a host of holy horrors do direct our aimless dance ... (DAMN!) I voted Free Will  |
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Anthe
Forum Groupie 
Joined: December 29 2008 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 48 |
Posted: March 31 2009 at 03:55 |
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I very much agree with this, although I voted free will. But I certainly do not believe we have the free will to do what ever we want or to become whatever we want. I think it often might seem that way, but soon there are many obstructions (indeed internal and external) and there comes a moment to realise the road has a dead end. And personally I think that is the moment to listen careful to your own subconscious mind and change direction if that is needed. So I see the free will as consciously acting upon what happens. Very limited free will in my opinion, but at the same time essential. And maybe indeed depending on how you define free will and determinism. |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32550 |
Posted: March 31 2009 at 08:25 |
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Every person's brain is a material entity, full of synapses and "working parts," that compute data at a rapid rate, and produce our choices.
The fact that it's our brain that produces choices do not make those choice any less ours (or any less free, I would argue). As I've mentioned, determinism makes freewill possible. If there is no materialistic determinism, then the only alternative is universe of complete randomness- and no freewill is possible at all in a random universe. |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: March 31 2009 at 08:44 |
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Please explore it, the notion seems incredibly absurd on the surface.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5210 |
Posted: March 31 2009 at 09:06 |
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Start here:
It's not all that different in some ways from what Logan was getting at.
Obviously, your will is not completely free. The number of choices you have is bounded...you can't choose to instantaneously change gender or teleport or a massive number of things. Some things are possible but difficult, making the likelihood of choosing those alternatives lower.
At the same time, the interactions of events in a dynamic world are so complex that any attempt at a realistic model of determinism is, in effect, identical to what most people mean by free will anyway.
The site mentioned above is enormous and one of the subjects is self-regulating systems. This refers to the fact that some systems actually have the ability to change their own state, and thereby alter their own boundary conditions. This is for all intents and purposes, functionally equivalent to free will.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: March 31 2009 at 09:45 |
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when it comes to a debate on free will I usually recommend this reading:
http://www.newbanner.com/SecHumSCM/IsGodTaoist.html it is an excellent essay on the topic in the form of a dialog between a mortal and God, written by logician Raymond Smullyan. one of the first things God says is that both the determinists and the defenders of free will are right. and he explains why |
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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Anthe
Forum Groupie
Joined: December 29 2008 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 48 |
Posted: March 31 2009 at 09:45 |
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Looks like an interesting site! I like what you say here and somehow I think that indeed the essense of free will is a 'self-regulating system' that can 'alter their own boundary conditions'. Edited by Anthe - March 31 2009 at 09:48 |
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rpe9p
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 31 2008 Location: Charlottesville Status: Offline Points: 485 |
Posted: March 31 2009 at 12:01 |
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I dont understand what you are trying to say at all. It seems like you are trying to make an argument for determinism |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32550 |
Posted: March 31 2009 at 12:12 |
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I'm what you might call a compatibilist- freewill only exists because our world is governed by deterministic laws (aka physics). Take away determinism, and you cannot have freewill. |
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 3595 |
Posted: March 31 2009 at 12:55 |
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I am highly interested in such a notion, and would love to hear any further thoughts you've come to on the matter. I abstain from voting, as of now. So far though, I want to agree with you. |
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5210 |
Posted: March 31 2009 at 13:13 |
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http://www.calresco.org/lucas/philos.htm
That one has some of the basics of complexity theory.
And it actually is exactly what Epignosis also said.
You start with the idea of Emergence. That a group of individual parts, depending on their relationships can become a new whole with different properties, abilities, and behavior.
Cells are capable of behavior that is impossible to individual organelles, organisms more than their individual cells, and the brain more than individual nerves. In fact, who you are is a series of stacked emergent phenomenon. You are relationships of relationships. One of the emergent properties of the emergent phenomenon that is the human being is free will. That free will is dependent on less complex, yet dynamic components, that in term on more static elements working under more strictly mechanistic rules.
There is both a separation and a connection between the levels of emergence. Choices made by the mind effect the cells (cut yourself) and disruptions at the cellular level effect the consciousness (sickness). All the while those two things are in some ways completely oblivious to each other.
One bite at a time. Edited by Negoba - March 31 2009 at 13:20 |
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: March 31 2009 at 13:37 |
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Friede and I said the very same thing in the atheism post. the most complex self-regulating system of all is the universe. since already we mere humans can develop a consciousness, is it then not a sound assumption that the universe as a whole, which is an incredibly more complex self-regulating system, has a consciousness too? |
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: March 31 2009 at 13:56 |
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It seems I misunderstood your post really. I though you were trying to claim something much stronger and unrelated to what you were, which confused me given I've done a fair amount of work in dynamical systems. The links you gave are pretty cool reading especially for those scared off by formalism. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5210 |
Posted: March 31 2009 at 14:08 |
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There is with almost complete certainty other complex systems which have gotten as far as human kind...a paraphrase of Carl Sagan who always said it's virtually impossible for life to have evolved in only one place. Well the fact is that randomly, a system as complex as life itself let alone the level of self reflection of humans is impossible by chance. Instead, through successive levels of self-organizing systems, order has been concentrated to this incredible degree. It is unconceivable that this is the only time or place that it has happened. Now what that system looks like, whether we would call it "life" in any way that we would recognize, is hard to say. That their are universe wide level is certainly possible.
At the same time, it is dangerous to extrapolate too far with scientific knowledge. The majority of people today still don't understand Darwin, natural selection, or equally important concepts such as genetic drift, and yet "Evolution" is the dominant mythos of the world. And many many people still believe in Social Darwinist principles which have always been complete and total bunk.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Free Will vs. Determinism
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Logan wrote: