Free Will vs. Determinism
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Topic: Free Will vs. Determinism
Posted By: Finnforest
Subject: Free Will vs. Determinism
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:01
One of the most spirited debates I ever witnessed was a group of friends arguing about this one night. Since all of these guys were insanely smart guys, and all had been partaking in copious amounts of ...ahem....inspiration.......the debated was loud, animated, and really fun to behold.
I largely stayed out of it, though I am a determinist. My view is that free will appeals to youth and strength, and makes the most sense in that context. Once you get a bit older and realize how little control you really have in this world, I think the school of determinism begins to make some sense.
But I freely admit I am no philosophical scholar. We have some deep thinkers here. Have at it!! Explain your vote!!
------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Replies:
Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:02
I'm much more an advocate of free will than I am determinism.
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Posted By: Captain Capricorn
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:04
I'm gonna go with Spinoza on this one...
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:09
Definitely determinism
I did a little topic pitting two songs that fit this topic here --> http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47173 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47173
I'll repost some of my thoughts.
I'm a determinist, a rather hard one in fact, which means that I don't
believe that the will can be truly free because our decisions are so
influenced by environmental and hereditary factors that it determines
the eventual outcome (there is more I would like to say on that, but it
takes some explaining so I'll leave it at that). For some, they can
believe in free will (libertarian), some believe that the mind can
break free of causality, and some some say free will within limits.
Due to causal
chains, due to our heredity and environment, our "decisions" are
forced. We think things through (weigh up), but internal and external
influences force the resolution, ergo it is not truly "free" will.
In becoming aware of the forces that cause us to choose, it may seem
that we can effect a new causal chain by making choices that go against
our temperament, but that choice would also be determined by factors
out of our control. For instance, we are forced to see a psychiatrist
for beating our children, and he eventually convinces us that our
desire to beat our children regularly is caused by a troubled
childhood. He also links our beatings with alcoholism. He trains us to
eschew alcoholism and to stop beating the children. This training
causes us to act in a different way, but whether or not we accept the
training is beyond our control. It is dependent upon the efficacy of
the psychiatrist’s intervention, as well as our natural inclinations;
for instance, whether or not we feel guilt over the beatings, and,
therefore, want to change.
Even the causal chains that have led to our awareness force our hand, and, therefore, our will is never free, as I see it.
I feel that free will is a delusion… People
rationalise, and play semantics games with what free will truly means as
well. I do believe that our actions are determined by causal chains that
are out of our control (A causes B causes C… haha, what causes A then?
Not to get into a first cause discussion). Now I wouldn’t phrase it in
the fanciful way “demented forces push me madly round the treadmill” because I
believe in a rational universe, and am more prosaic than poetic.
As I mentioned earlier, I
expect that many people deceive themselves into believing that their decisions
are free from causal chains that result in a necessary action because this
gives them a sense of empowerment. It is uncomfortable to think that all
of our actions and choices are determined by hereditary and environmental
factors; that in any given circumstance our decisions are fixed by our past
experiences, environmental stimuli, and our genetic makeup. However, I
believe that forces beyond our control fix our decisions – and I’m inclined to
say that we cannot alter those forces anymore than we can change the laws of
gravity. But I offer my own qualifiers to help help empower me.
Whether I contradict myself is fine for me. I’m a materialist essentially,
but I still believe in moral responsibility. In becoming aware of the
forces that cause us to choose, it may seem that we can effect a new causal
chain, or alter our course, our fate if you will (self-determination) by making
choices that go against our temperament, but that choice would also be
determined by factors out of our control by my way of thinking.
There is also a compatibilist (soft
determinsist) idea out there that there is a distinction between immediate
“internal” and “external” causes which "saves" the idea of freedom
(agency). A deterministic view is taken that all actions are
completely determined by causes, including internal and external causes, but
internal (psychological, physiological) causes are thought of as free because
there are no outside forces at work. Really this a semantics argument for
me. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me (mind you, it is argued
intelligently). Because I believe that our internal reasons for action,
being determined by past external events and heredity, are so enmeshed within
the external that the two cannot be sufficiently, or indeed at all, separated
to accept the notion of free will. Outside forces do not work on us in a
vacuum, they work together with our internal training, and physiology, to determine
our actions.
As to the libertarian (theory of agency)
stance (well there are different camps there), I have some fundamental problems
with it. While both determinists and libertarians accept that causal
chains exist, libertarians are compelled to advance the vague idea of a self
that can somehow transcend causal chains. Occam’s razor, y' know, the
idea that utilising the minimum number of necessary assumptions is best… I’m
inclined to believe that hard determinism is a better view because it is simpler.
It dispenses with unknowable metaphysical notions, and presents what is
empirically evident; that there are causes behind all actions and decisions.
Soft
determinism is problematic for me because it is illogical to associate free
actions with a causal chain that always leads to an inevitable action.
The libertarian notion that there are causal chains, which can be broken
through careful deliberation, is also problematic. "If you choose not to
decide, you still have made a choice." What causes us to carefully
deliberate, and come to a conclusion? Surely we deliberate because we
have been trained not to come to a hasty conclusion when matters are of
importance. Our conclusion is dependent upon our weighing up the pros and
cons, the pros being conducive to our desires, which are determined by various
psychological and physiological factors. If we did not deliberate we
might come to a conclusion different from a conclusion arrived at with
deliberation, but our caused conditions dictate the extent to which we
deliberate, and, therefore, determine our decision. I’ll be the roundabout.
Therefore, it is unnecessary in my view to
resort to vague metaphysical notions of the self in order to explain the
process of deliberation. Not that important to the discussion,
but I also believe in, let's say semi-conscious and sub-conscious
decisions. That our conscious mind is acting in coordination with our
sub or semi conscious mind (I do believe in internal and external
factors when it comes to deliberation and execution). We consciously
deliberate and these facets of our mind effect resolution (we we react
in any given situation). The subconscious is "programmed," if you
will, and the "conscious mind" is being affected by external and
internal factors. Still not free will. But if one believes in "free
will" as a concept can depend on how one defines it. Rather like some
of the categories at this site, ;), we can define things into existence.
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Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:09
Is it really impossible for the two to co-exist?
Nature versus nurture.
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Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:10
I voted for determinism. I just couldn't help it.
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:12
LinusW wrote:
Is it really impossible for the two to co-exist?
Nature versus nurture.
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Linus, that's the one thing that frustrated me most that night. Yes, both of the smart guys on each side said you absolutely could not have both.....you had to choose a side or you were full of sh*t. I can't remember *why* they were so adamant about that, but they were....on both sides of the debate. And they did have fancy sounding explanations, I just don't remember....it was a long time ago. You were probably a toddler then!
------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:14
Vompatti wrote:
I voted for determinism. I just couldn't help it.
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This is already the best answer of the night!!!
------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:14
I don't know how determinists can go through life. At least the nihilist has control over his life even if it's ultimately pointless.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:14
I just think extremes are more interesting for being absolute and easy to grasp. Yet that's not how I experience the world.
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Posted By: Captain Capricorn
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:15
Vompatti wrote:
I voted for determinism. I just couldn't help it. |
you had no choice
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:18
i thought this was a Rush poll.............
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Captain Capricorn
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:24
darkshade wrote:
i thought this was a Rush poll............. |
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:33
Captain Capricorn wrote:
darkshade wrote:
i thought this was a Rush poll............. |
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Like mine that I linked to (pus Wyatt), and I will choose "Free Will and Testament" over "Freewill."
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:39
I remember Greg's thread (which was unfortunately short-lived), and I will repeat here what I wrote there. I am what you would call a 'soft determinist' - I believe you can achieve a lot through your will, but this does not mean that there won't be factors out of your control that will influence your life in a way you can't control (like having a serious accident through no fault of your own, or getting seriously ill). As I said in that thread, I see the advocates of 'free will above everything' as suffering from some sort of God complex, as I call it. Unfortunately, as we see every day, we are not God, and we would do well to remember how vulnerable we can be.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:54
It was short-lived, but some excellent comments by people such as yourself, Raff. I had a more soft-deterministic stance at one time which I'd really worked out well, and liked to go on about at pubs, but subsequently the ideas dissolved into the ephemera as the pistons of my brain began to misfire and then cut out (but this is not the place to discuss the sad, atrophied, dysfunctional state of my brain).
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:57
I believe in free will. Determinism makes a lot of sense, but I somehow just think I can freely choose something. I think the philosophy of determinism is just trying to nail something into your head when all your past experience and everything you've known about life screams the opposite.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 19:08
For debate let's set clear:
What do we understand for both concepts determinist and free will, the vulgar? the scientific? the philosohic?, the religious?
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Posted By: TheCaptain
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 19:08
Being a pretty big science guy, I go with determinism. Everything can be broken down into atoms, which can be broken down to quarks and are now believed to be broken down to strings. These strings vibrate in some manner which then is reflected in the quarks, then atoms-> molecules-> neurons. If neurons firing produces what we think then there isn't anything we can do. Quantum mechanics determines what we do. There isn't any free will.
------------- Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal.
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 19:12
Alberto Muñoz wrote:
For debate let's set clear:
What do we understand for both concepts determinist and free will, the vulgar? the scientific? the philosohic?, the religious? |
I understand there are many ways to approach this and many variations of the position. I really didn't want to get bogged down in that, so I state the question in a general way....."which view is closer to you?" meaning it doesn't have to be absolutely defined.
View the question through whatever lens you wish and just clarify in your answer if you have alternate approaches.
------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 19:19
Guys, the math already has identified the answer to this with the advent of chaos theory, and it can actually be broken down into pretty understandable sense.
The entire universe is a combination of randomness which operates within boundary conditions. No boundary is absolute, and given a certain catalyst energy, a set condition can reach some very interesting combinations.
That is to say, that the boundaries on your choices are hard but not absolute. Within those boundaries is quite a bit of freedom. The more you push against the boundaries, the less choice you actually have.
I could babble on forever on this subject, but it actually is very close to my current religious beliefs so I get worked up....
It's called complexity theory, edge of chaos....if anyone's interested we can explore the rabbit hole. Must not be afraid of math to enter.
------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 19:23
I'm a firm believer that we make a choice, out of more or less many possible, each moment - but I don't know where that falls exactly here (depends on the definitions and the relation with the act of choosing, I guess). But since I don't buy the "everything in the future is predetermined/predestined" very much, I guess I'm advocating free will more comfortably.
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Posted By: rpe9p
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 19:36
Determinism is way more fun to argue, but I believe in free will because of my religious beliefs. I believe my consciousness is what gives me free will and that it not something which can be physically nailed down with science (at least yet).
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 20:01
Determinism makes Freewill possible- see Daniel Dennet's Freedom Evolves.
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 29 2009 at 10:25
I don't understand determinists. Kind of sickening that it's winning.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: March 31 2009 at 01:17
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: March 31 2009 at 02:29
*Tries to avoid making a connection to the Rush song of the same name*
Personally I don't believe in destiny, or a guiding hand of fate - I don't believe in forever or love as a mystical state. I don't believe in the stars or the planets, or angels watching from above ... (so far so good) ... After all, there are those who think that life is nothing left to chance, a host of holy horrors do direct our aimless dance ... (DAMN!)
I voted Free Will
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Posted By: Anthe
Date Posted: March 31 2009 at 03:55
Logan wrote:
That our conscious mind is acting in coordination with our
sub or semi conscious mind (I do believe in internal and external
factors when it comes to deliberation and execution). We consciously
deliberate and these facets of our mind effect resolution (we we react
in any given situation). The subconscious is "programmed," if you
will, and the "conscious mind" is being affected by external and
internal factors. Still not free will. But if one believes in "free
will" as a concept can depend on how one defines it. Rather like some
of the categories at this site, ;), we can define things into existence.
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I very much agree with this, although I voted free will. But I certainly do not believe we have the free will to do what ever we want or to become whatever we want. I think it often might seem that way, but soon there are many obstructions (indeed internal and external) and there comes a moment to realise the road has a dead end. And personally I think that is the moment to listen careful to your own subconscious mind and change direction if that is needed.
So I see the free will as consciously acting upon what happens. Very limited free will in my opinion, but at the same time essential. And maybe indeed depending on how you define free will and determinism.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 31 2009 at 08:25
Every person's brain is a material entity, full of synapses and "working parts," that compute data at a rapid rate, and produce our choices.
The fact that it's our brain that produces choices do not make those choice any less ours (or any less free, I would argue).
As I've mentioned, determinism makes freewill possible.
If there is no materialistic determinism, then the only alternative is universe of complete randomness- and no freewill is possible at all in a random universe.
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 31 2009 at 08:44
Negoba wrote:
Guys, the math already has identified the answer to this with the advent of chaos theory, and it can actually be broken down into pretty understandable sense.
The entire universe is a combination of randomness which operates within boundary conditions. No boundary is absolute, and given a certain catalyst energy, a set condition can reach some very interesting combinations.
That is to say, that the boundaries on your choices are hard but not absolute. Within those boundaries is quite a bit of freedom. The more you push against the boundaries, the less choice you actually have.
I could babble on forever on this subject, but it actually is very close to my current religious beliefs so I get worked up....
It's called complexity theory, edge of chaos....if anyone's interested we can explore the rabbit hole. Must not be afraid of math to enter. |
Please explore it, the notion seems incredibly absurd on the surface.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 31 2009 at 09:06
Start here:
http://www.calresco.org/perturb.htm - http://www.calresco.org/perturb.htm
It's not all that different in some ways from what Logan was getting at.
Obviously, your will is not completely free. The number of choices you have is bounded...you can't choose to instantaneously change gender or teleport or a massive number of things. Some things are possible but difficult, making the likelihood of choosing those alternatives lower.
At the same time, the interactions of events in a dynamic world are so complex that any attempt at a realistic model of determinism is, in effect, identical to what most people mean by free will anyway.
The site mentioned above is enormous and one of the subjects is self-regulating systems. This refers to the fact that some systems actually have the ability to change their own state, and thereby alter their own boundary conditions. This is for all intents and purposes, functionally equivalent to free will.
------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 31 2009 at 09:45
when it comes to a debate on free will I usually recommend this reading: http://www.newbanner.com/SecHumSCM/IsGodTaoist.html - http://www.newbanner.com/SecHumSCM/IsGodTaoist.html - http://www.newbanner.com/SecHumSCM/IsGodTaoist.html it is an excellent essay on the topic in the form of a dialog between a mortal and God, written by logician Raymond Smullyan. one of the first things God says is that both the determinists and the defenders of free will are right. and he explains why
-------------
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Posted By: Anthe
Date Posted: March 31 2009 at 09:45
Negoba wrote:
http://www.calresco.org/perturb.htm - http://www.calresco.org/perturb.htm
The site mentioned above is enormous and one of the subjects is self-regulating systems. This refers to the fact that some systems actually have the ability to change their own state, and thereby alter their own boundary conditions. This is for all intents and purposes, functionally equivalent to free will. |
Looks like an interesting site!
I like what you say here and somehow I think that indeed the essense of free will is a 'self-regulating system' that can 'alter their own boundary conditions'.
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Posted By: rpe9p
Date Posted: March 31 2009 at 12:01
Epignosis wrote:
Every person's brain is a material entity, full of synapses and "working parts," that compute data at a rapid rate, and produce our choices.
The fact that it's our brain that produces choices do not make those choice any less ours (or any less free, I would argue).
As I've mentioned, determinism makes freewill possible.
If there is no materialistic determinism, then the only alternative is universe of complete randomness- and no freewill is possible at all in a random universe.
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I dont understand what you are trying to say at all. It seems like you are trying to make an argument for determinism
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 31 2009 at 12:12
rpe9p wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Every person's brain is a material entity, full of synapses and "working parts," that compute data at a rapid rate, and produce our choices.
The fact that it's our brain that produces choices do not make those choice any less ours (or any less free, I would argue).
As I've mentioned, determinism makes freewill possible.
If there is no materialistic determinism, then the only alternative is universe of complete randomness- and no freewill is possible at all in a random universe.
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I dont understand what you are trying to say at all. It seems like you are trying to make an argument for determinism
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I'm what you might call a compatibilist- freewill only exists because our world is governed by deterministic laws (aka physics). Take away determinism, and you cannot have freewill.
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: March 31 2009 at 12:55
Negoba wrote:
Start here:
http://www.calresco.org/perturb.htm - http://www.calresco.org/perturb.htm
It's not all that different in some ways from what Logan was getting at.
Obviously, your will is not completely free. The number of choices you have is bounded...you can't choose to instantaneously change gender or teleport or a massive number of things. Some things are possible but difficult, making the likelihood of choosing those alternatives lower.
At the same time, the interactions of events in a dynamic world are so complex that any attempt at a realistic model of determinism is, in effect, identical to what most people mean by free will anyway.
The site mentioned above is enormous and one of the subjects is self-regulating systems. This refers to the fact that some systems actually have the ability to change their own state, and thereby alter their own boundary conditions. This is for all intents and purposes, functionally equivalent to free will. |
I am highly interested in such a notion, and would love to hear any further thoughts you've come to on the matter. I abstain from voting, as of now. So far though, I want to agree with you.
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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 31 2009 at 13:13
http://www.calresco.org/lucas/philos.htm - http://www.calresco.org/lucas/philos.htm
That one has some of the basics of complexity theory.
And it actually is exactly what Epignosis also said.
You start with the idea of Emergence. That a group of individual parts, depending on their relationships can become a new whole with different properties, abilities, and behavior.
Cells are capable of behavior that is impossible to individual organelles, organisms more than their individual cells, and the brain more than individual nerves. In fact, who you are is a series of stacked emergent phenomenon. You are relationships of relationships. One of the emergent properties of the emergent phenomenon that is the human being is free will. That free will is dependent on less complex, yet dynamic components, that in term on more static elements working under more strictly mechanistic rules.
There is both a separation and a connection between the levels of emergence. Choices made by the mind effect the cells (cut yourself) and disruptions at the cellular level effect the consciousness (sickness). All the while those two things are in some ways completely oblivious to each other.
One bite at a time.
------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 31 2009 at 13:37
Negoba wrote:
http://www.calresco.org/lucas/philos.htm - http://www.calresco.org/lucas/philos.htm
That one has some of the basics of complexity theory.
And it actually is exactly what Epignosis also said.
You start with the idea of Emergence. That a group of individual parts, depending on their relationships can become a new whole with different properties, abilities, and behavior.
Cells are capable of behavior that is impossible to individual organelles, organisms more than their individual cells, and the brain more than individual nerves. In fact, who you are is a series of stacked emergent phenomenon. You are relationships of relationships. One of the emergent properties of the emergent phenomenon that is the human being is free will. That free will is dependent on less complex, yet dynamic components, that in term on more static elements working under more strictly mechanistic rules.
There is both a separation and a connection between the levels of emergence. Choices made by the mind effect the cells (cut yourself) and disruptions at the cellular level effect the consciousness (sickness). All the while those two things are in some ways completely oblivious to each other.
One bite at a time. |
Friede and I said the very same thing in the atheism post. the most complex self-regulating system of all is the universe. since already we mere humans can develop a consciousness, is it then not a sound assumption that the universe as a whole, which is an incredibly more complex self-regulating system, has a consciousness too?
-------------
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 31 2009 at 13:56
Negoba wrote:
Start here:
http://www.calresco.org/perturb.htm - http://www.calresco.org/perturb.htm
It's not all that different in some ways from what Logan was getting at.
Obviously, your will is not completely free. The number of choices you have is bounded...you can't choose to instantaneously change gender or teleport or a massive number of things. Some things are possible but difficult, making the likelihood of choosing those alternatives lower.
At the same time, the interactions of events in a dynamic world are so complex that any attempt at a realistic model of determinism is, in effect, identical to what most people mean by free will anyway.
The site mentioned above is enormous and one of the subjects is self-regulating systems. This refers to the fact that some systems actually have the ability to change their own state, and thereby alter their own boundary conditions. This is for all intents and purposes, functionally equivalent to free will. |
It seems I misunderstood your post really. I though you were trying to claim something much stronger and unrelated to what you were, which confused me given I've done a fair amount of work in dynamical systems.
The links you gave are pretty cool reading especially for those scared off by formalism.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 31 2009 at 14:08
BaldJean wrote:
Negoba wrote:
http://www.calresco.org/lucas/philos.htm - http://www.calresco.org/lucas/philos.htm
That one has some of the basics of complexity theory.
And it actually is exactly what Epignosis also said.
You start with the idea of Emergence. That a group of individual parts, depending on their relationships can become a new whole with different properties, abilities, and behavior.
Cells are capable of behavior that is impossible to individual organelles, organisms more than their individual cells, and the brain more than individual nerves. In fact, who you are is a series of stacked emergent phenomenon. You are relationships of relationships. One of the emergent properties of the emergent phenomenon that is the human being is free will. That free will is dependent on less complex, yet dynamic components, that in term on more static elements working under more strictly mechanistic rules.
There is both a separation and a connection between the levels of emergence. Choices made by the mind effect the cells (cut yourself) and disruptions at the cellular level effect the consciousness (sickness). All the while those two things are in some ways completely oblivious to each other.
One bite at a time. |
Friede and I said the very same thing in the atheism post. the most complex self-regulating system of all is the universe. since already we mere humans can develop a consciousness, is it then not a sound assumption that the universe as a whole, which is an incredibly more complex self-regulating system, has a consciousness too?
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There is with almost complete certainty other complex systems which have gotten as far as human kind...a paraphrase of Carl Sagan who always said it's virtually impossible for life to have evolved in only one place. Well the fact is that randomly, a system as complex as life itself let alone the level of self reflection of humans is impossible by chance. Instead, through successive levels of self-organizing systems, order has been concentrated to this incredible degree. It is unconceivable that this is the only time or place that it has happened. Now what that system looks like, whether we would call it "life" in any way that we would recognize, is hard to say. That their are universe wide level is certainly possible.
At the same time, it is dangerous to extrapolate too far with scientific knowledge. The majority of people today still don't understand Darwin, natural selection, or equally important concepts such as genetic drift, and yet "Evolution" is the dominant mythos of the world. And many many people still believe in Social Darwinist principles which have always been complete and total bunk.
------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Posted By: Fists
Date Posted: April 09 2009 at 07:05
I'm with Logan the Captain and others. Sice our consciousnes is made of predictable electrochemical reactions what we see as a descision made is actually just a one path action-reaction deal so while we think things are decided on when they happen it was sort of inevitable.
This theory supports being able to predict the future, with enough computing power (billions of times what exists in the sum of all devices now) we could predict all the reactions that will happen.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 09 2009 at 07:14
Fists wrote:
I'm with Logan the Captain and others. Sice our consciousnes is made of predictable electrochemical reactions what we see as a descision made is actually just a one path action-reaction deal so while we think things are decided on when they happen it was sort of inevitable.
This theory supports being able to predict the future, with enough computing power (billions of times what exists in the sum of all devices now) we could predict all the reactions that will happen. |
Only as quantum physics shows, the very act of "observing" the particles will change their behavior and our predictions will be false.
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: April 09 2009 at 09:04
Epignosis wrote:
Fists wrote:
I'm with Logan the Captain and others. Sice our consciousnes is made of predictable electrochemical reactions what we see as a descision made is actually just a one path action-reaction deal so while we think things are decided on when they happen it was sort of inevitable.
This theory supports being able to predict the future, with enough computing power (billions of times what exists in the sum of all devices now) we could predict all the reactions that will happen. |
Only as quantum physics shows, the very act of "observing" the particles will change their behavior and our predictions will be false.
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Exactly right.....and this is a monkey wrench that comes AFTER the fact that interactive dynamic variable in huge numbers are far far beyond our mathematics, let alone our computing power.
Pure determinism is at minimum functionally inaccurate.
------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: April 11 2009 at 08:58
Well, I think it's pretty obvious that everybody has the ability to make their own choices and do their own thing, the confusing part is whether people will actually use their ability for free will, and whether using your free will can actually make much of a difference.
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Posted By: Fists
Date Posted: April 11 2009 at 23:21
Negoba wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Fists wrote:
I'm with Logan the Captain and others. Sice our consciousnes is made of predictable electrochemical reactions what we see as a descision made is actually just a one path action-reaction deal so while we think things are decided on when they happen it was sort of inevitable.
This theory supports being able to predict the future, with enough computing power (billions of times what exists in the sum of all devices now) we could predict all the reactions that will happen. |
Only as quantum physics shows, the very act of "observing" the particles will change their behavior and our predictions will be false.
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Exactly right.....and this is a monkey wrench that comes AFTER the fact that interactive dynamic variable in huge numbers are far far beyond our mathematics, let alone our computing power.
Pure determinism is at minimum functionally inaccurate. |
Note the word billions, and there was a time where inticate fluid dynamics were completely ineffable (yay big word) but geniuses continue to break massive boudaries so assuming the human race survives long enough the algorithms could be found in time and super advanced photonics with nanotube vacuums or something will provide computing power
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Posted By: progvortex
Date Posted: April 14 2009 at 20:46
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill.
------------- Life is like a beanstalk... isn't it?
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