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Slartibartfast 
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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 Posted: March 27 2009 at 15:57 |
 Garion81 wrote:
Several things to touch on:
Italians immigrated to this country in droves in the late 1800's early 1900's. They worked hard they carved a piece of their freedom became solid citizens and did their family's proud. Their heritage is written all over New York (as well as the Irish) They learned the language of their new land and while they adopted their new culture they never forgot their old. In my state the native Latino population were growing grapes and making wines far earlier than they became popular. Their expertise helped the new vineyard owners develop world class wines that rivaled even the French masters.
America owes these two, among many nationalities, a great thank you.
I named these two because one is being demonized as much in this century as the other was in the previous. Every people have good and bad people but as history will show these two will have way more good than bad.
As for the thread topic. It isn't that the US practices Socialism in truth but it does borrow from some of its premise in social security, welfare and tax credits such as The earned income credit. These are all vehicles of the redistribution of wealth one tenant of socialism. (By saying that I am neither condoning or vilifying the practice just pointing out a fact). There is a segment of our government that thinks we need more of this and another less. Which is right? Is it one extreme or the other or somewhere in the middle?
As for the Obama administration sooner or later the American People will get tired of this direction and move back to the other party looking for "real change". It is inevitable.  |
Well along with all the decent Italian folks that immigrated, there was also the Mafia. Still I think one of this country's greatest strengths are all the immigrants, the native folks might not be so approving. 
Edited by Slartibartfast - March 27 2009 at 16:04
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: March 27 2009 at 16:08 |
Brian, you've found me out   ! *signed The Godmother*
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: March 27 2009 at 16:24 |
"Raff from the Maff".
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
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Posted: March 27 2009 at 17:55 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Garion81 wrote:
Several things to touch on:
Italians immigrated to this country in droves in the late 1800's early 1900's. They worked hard they carved a piece of their freedom became solid citizens and did their family's proud. Their heritage is written all over New York (as well as the Irish) They learned the language of their new land and while they adopted their new culture they never forgot their old. In my state the native Latino population were growing grapes and making wines far earlier than they became popular. Their expertise helped the new vineyard owners develop world class wines that rivaled even the French masters.
America owes these two, among many nationalities, a great thank you.
I named these two because one is being demonized as much in this century as the other was in the previous. Every people have good and bad people but as history will show these two will have way more good than bad.
As for the thread topic. It isn't that the US practices Socialism in truth but it does borrow from some of its premise in social security, welfare and tax credits such as The earned income credit. These are all vehicles of the redistribution of wealth one tenant of socialism. (By saying that I am neither condoning or vilifying the practice just pointing out a fact). There is a segment of our government that thinks we need more of this and another less. Which is right? Is it one extreme or the other or somewhere in the middle?
As for the Obama administration sooner or later the American People will get tired of this direction and move back to the other party looking for "real change". It is inevitable. |
Well along with all the decent Italian folks that immigrated, there was also the Mafia. Still I think one of this country's greatest strengths are all the immigrants, the native folks might not be so approving.
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Each society has brought the dregs of organized crime with it including the Russians, Mexicans and Cubans. (not methion the Hippies with Timothy Leary, Abby Hoffman and Owsley. ) I was generally referring to them as "the bad people" Lord this thread has taken on way more twists without adding one more. 
Raff, just for protocol sake, if we ever meet do I kiss your ring or strangle Micky?
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: March 27 2009 at 18:02 |
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crimson87
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 03 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 1818
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Posted: March 27 2009 at 20:56 |
Garion81 wrote:
As for the Obama administration sooner or later the American People will get tired of this direction and move back to the other party looking for "real change". It is inevitable. |
This is the biggest mistake of your system. Why not "other parties" instead of "the other party"
f*ck bipartidism.
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KoS
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 16310
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Posted: March 27 2009 at 21:11 |
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Most American people are moderates, so how is a multi-party system going to work?
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Atkingani
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: October 21 2005
Location: Terra Brasilis
Status: Offline
Points: 12288
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Posted: March 27 2009 at 21:52 |
KoS wrote:
Most American people are moderates, so how is a multi-party system going to work?
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Multi-party is great!  You can make a tasteful salad with your vote!!! 
Last general elections here (2006) I went that way:
- President >>> Socialist Workers
- State Governor >>> Social Democrats
- Senator (Federal)>>> Communist
- Rep (Federal)>>> Green
- Rep (State) >>> Liberal
All were elected, except the woman I voted for President but she did well, finishing 3rd. 
For the 2nd shift of the Presidential Election I voted the Workers' Party and re-elected Lula. 
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Guigo
~~~~~~
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: March 27 2009 at 23:35 |
KoS wrote:
Most American people are moderates, so how is a multi-party system going to work?
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most Germans are moderate too, and yet there is a multi-party system here which works very well. currently there are 5 parties in the Bundestag (or rather 6, but one can consider the Christian Democrats and the Christian Socialists as one party, with the Christian Socialists being the Bavarian version of the Christian Democrats. the Chrsitian Democrats exist in 15 of the 16 German states, the Christian Socialists only in Bavaria). the other parties are the Social Democrats, the Liberal Democrats, the Green party and the Left party. the latter is rather new and a spin-off of the Social Democrats when Gerhard Schroeder took a course which for many of the Social Democrats was too employer-friendly. traditionally the Social Democrats are the party of the working class
Edited by BaldJean - March 27 2009 at 23:47
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
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Posted: March 28 2009 at 02:03 |
crimson87 wrote:
Garion81 wrote:
As for the Obama administration sooner or later the American People will get tired of this direction and move back to the other party looking for "real change". It is inevitable. |
This is the biggest mistake of your system. Why not "other parties" instead of "the other party"
f*ck bipartidismo. |
The United States is not a Parliamentarian system. That's why. Instead they form Political Action Committees that influence either party or both for the agenda they want. If you want to find the real power in American politics look to these groups.
So what is the biggest mistake of Argentina's system?
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
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Posted: March 28 2009 at 07:32 |
IT CAN CHANGE. IT CAN STAY THE SAME...
Listen to that album...
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crimson87
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 03 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 1818
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Posted: March 28 2009 at 09:28 |
Garion81 wrote:
crimson87 wrote:
Garion81 wrote:
As for the Obama administration sooner or later the American People will get tired of this direction and move back to the other party looking for "real change". It is inevitable. |
This is the biggest mistake of your system. Why not "other parties" instead of "the other party"
f*ck bipartidismo. |
The United States is not a Parliamentarian system. That's why. Instead they form Political Action Committees that influence either party or both for the agenda they want. If you want to find the real power in American politics look to these groups.
So what is the biggest mistake of Argentina's system?
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Our system is exellent , but poorly executed.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66567
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Posted: March 28 2009 at 09:31 |
Following is an email that I recently received that is topic heading related. I'm not sure how it fits in with the discussion as I have not read the 15 pages of posts:
Subject: A simple analogy
An economics professor at Texas Tech said he had never failed a single
student before but had, once, failed an entire class. That class had
insisted that socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no
one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said ok, we
will have an experiment in this class on socialism.
All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade
so no one would fail and no one would receive an A. After the first
test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who
studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were
happy. But, as the second test rolled around, the students who
studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard
decided they wanted a free ride too; so they studied little.. The
second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test
rolled around the average was an F.
The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name calling all
resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of
anyone else. All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor
told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the
reward is great, the effort to succeed is great; but when government
takes all the reward away; no one will try or want to succeed.
Could not be any simpler than that....
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: March 28 2009 at 09:33 |
Garion81 wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Garion81 wrote:
Several things to touch on:
Italians immigrated to this country in droves in the late 1800's early 1900's. They worked hard they carved a piece of their freedom became solid citizens and did their family's proud. Their heritage is written all over New York (as well as the Irish) They learned the language of their new land and while they adopted their new culture they never forgot their old. In my state the native Latino population were growing grapes and making wines far earlier than they became popular. Their expertise helped the new vineyard owners develop world class wines that rivaled even the French masters.
America owes these two, among many nationalities, a great thank you.
I named these two because one is being demonized as much in this century as the other was in the previous. Every people have good and bad people but as history will show these two will have way more good than bad.
As for the thread topic. It isn't that the US practices Socialism in truth but it does borrow from some of its premise in social security, welfare and tax credits such as The earned income credit. These are all vehicles of the redistribution of wealth one tenant of socialism. (By saying that I am neither condoning or vilifying the practice just pointing out a fact). There is a segment of our government that thinks we need more of this and another less. Which is right? Is it one extreme or the other or somewhere in the middle?
As for the Obama administration sooner or later the American People will get tired of this direction and move back to the other party looking for "real change". It is inevitable. |
Well along with all the decent Italian folks that immigrated, there was also the Mafia. Still I think one of this country's greatest strengths are all the immigrants, the native folks might not be so approving.
|
Each society has brought the dregs of organized crime with it including the Russians, Mexicans and Cubans. (not methion the Hippies with Timothy Leary, Abby Hoffman and Owsley. ) I was generally referring to them as "the bad people" Lord this thread has taken on way more twists without adding one more.
Raff, just for protocol sake, if we ever meet do I kiss your ring or strangle Micky?
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I'm sorry I was just being silly, which is totally out of character for me, 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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crimson87
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 03 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 1818
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Posted: March 28 2009 at 09:42 |
That's way too simplistic , besides your analogy reminds me of the CCCP-like socialism. And we are talking about a moderate socialism ( like some European countries have) not utopian socialism.
Besides , some wealth redistribution does not equal being against capitalism. The extremes are bad , and no one would take a totally state plannified economy. But capitalism is not everlasting , it's been more or less 250 years since it appeared in it's modern form. Which means nothing in human history.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: March 28 2009 at 10:10 |
crimson87 wrote:
Besides , some wealth redistribution does not equal being against capitalism. The extremes are bad , and no one would take a totally state plannified economy. But capitalism is not everlasting , it's been more or less 250 years since it appeared in it's modern form. Which means nothing in human history. |
What event 250 years ago sparked the beginning of capitalism? For me current capitalism boils down to "he who has the gold rules."....
Edited by Slartibartfast - March 28 2009 at 10:12
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: March 28 2009 at 10:28 |
 Yes.
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crimson87
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 03 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 1818
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Posted: March 28 2009 at 10:36 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
crimson87 wrote:
Besides , some wealth redistribution does not equal being against capitalism. The extremes are bad , and no one would take a totally state plannified economy. But capitalism is not everlasting , it's been more or less 250 years since it appeared in it's modern form. Which means nothing in human history. |
What event 250 years ago sparked the beginning of capitalism? For me current capitalism boils down to "he who has the gold rules."....
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Not that it appeared out of nowhere , but the Industrial Revolution n the XVII century was a turning point. All the major technical innovations made it possible to stock a huge ammount of capital.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
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Posted: March 28 2009 at 10:41 |
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TGM: Orb
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 21 2007
Location: n/a
Status: Offline
Points: 8052
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Posted: March 28 2009 at 11:25 |
rushfan4 wrote:
Following is an email that I recently received that is topic heading related. I'm not sure how it fits in with the discussion as I have not read the 15 pages of posts:
Subject: A simple analogy
An economics professor at Texas Tech said he had never failed a single
student before but had, once, failed an entire class. That class had
insisted that socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no
one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said ok, we
will have an experiment in this class on socialism.
All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade
so no one would fail and no one would receive an A. After the first
test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who
studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were
happy. But, as the second test rolled around, the students who
studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard
decided they wanted a free ride too; so they studied little.. The
second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test
rolled around the average was an F.
The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name calling all
resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of
anyone else. All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor
told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the
reward is great, the effort to succeed is great; but when government
takes all the reward away; no one will try or want to succeed.
Could not be any simpler than that....
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Not actually a solid analogy. These people had been brought up expecting an effort/reward correlation, and consequently viewed effort as invalid when that correlation wasn't there. Had they gone through all of school without such manic focus on grades, and without the view that individual effort should contribute only to individual success, it could well have turned out differently. Next, the distinction in role between grades and finances is substantial enough that something based on grades can't reasonably be used as an analogy for finances.
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Socialism.. does anyone have a clue.
.
