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Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
Posted: March 26 2009 at 20:35
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
I understand, Jim. I already have the brains and I do have a few connections, so I figure I'm set for life.
It's the unfortunates who don't have the hard-work ethic, intelligence, or anyone/anything going for them that are going to need help.
Here's where the disillusionment comes in. I'm like you. I come from blue collar folks (carpenters), all intelligent, but my father was a teacher. So I worked summers doing construction and in the fields, real work. I used my smarts and blah blah blah now I'm a doctor.
It is not that I'm bitter because I'm left out, it's guilt in some ways. Many men worker harder than I do every day to make 1/4 the pay. I couldn't do what they do, they can't do what I do, but I get paid much much more. Why? Because I was born as an insider to the educational system, and I am willing to put up with BS to get where I want.
It's not about work.
At the same time, if you're smart, can take a little pain, you probably are set.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
Posted: March 26 2009 at 20:45
micky wrote:
Chris brings up something I wanted to mention earlier... but went off on a tangent..
see free-market captialism much in the same vein as communism... How?
wonderful idea... doomed to failure by the inherent evilness of mankind... evil being pure greed and selfishness. It caught up with Communism ....has it finally caught up with free market capitalism? When did it catch up to Communism? Communism only exists in Cuba and North Korea these days, whereas most western countries at least balance out socialism with capitalism.
how long could the gulf between have and have-nots continue to widen... with the destruction of the middle class.. Call me nuts, but I think a lot of the haves and have-nots come from people running up massive credit card debts because they don't know the difference between needs and wants (waits for responses)
looks like it has.... it so... the market would dictate that weak should fail...and the world would see a depression.. a financial meltdown that the present crisis would pale next to. Even Bush knew that.... The reality is that even in a fairly healthy economy, recessions are a part of life, like death, taxes, and government. How we minimize the damage is the real issue. And the businesses that decided to make bad decisions deserve to be punished for it. But instead they get rewarded with this bailout bullcrap, which is what gets me upset the most.
the way I see it is we finally have responsible leadership in place that appear to want to find the middle ground... and I think that is what the current government is working on... though they will be fought every step of the way by those that have no plan...only fear to sell... Socialism? pffff... Alright, fine. Obama is placing tighter controls on businesses for now. But to me it looks like the start of a slippery slope. If 4 years from now, government hasn't taken greater control over the private sector and is trying to influence our daily lives, I wouldn't be too surprised.
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
Posted: March 26 2009 at 20:46
Negoba wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
I understand, Jim. I already have the brains and I do have a few connections, so I figure I'm set for life.
It's the unfortunates who don't have the hard-work ethic, intelligence, or anyone/anything going for them that are going to need help.
Here's where the disillusionment comes in. I'm like you. I come from blue collar folks (carpenters), all intelligent, but my father was a teacher. So I worked summers doing construction and in the fields, real work. I used my smarts and blah blah blah now I'm a doctor.
It is not that I'm bitter because I'm left out, it's guilt in some ways. Many men worker harder than I do every day to make 1/4 the pay. I couldn't do what they do, they can't do what I do, but I get paid much much more. Why? Because I was born as an insider to the educational system, and I am willing to put up with BS to get where I want.
It's not about work.
At the same time, if you're smart, can take a little pain, you probably are set.
If it's not about hard work, what is it about then?
I understand the guilt, but at the same time, I'd feel fortunate that I was born into a better situation.
Edited by birdwithteeth11 - March 26 2009 at 20:52
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
Posted: March 27 2009 at 05:26
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
I understand, Jim. I already have the brains and I do have a few connections, so I figure I'm set for life.
It's the unfortunates who don't have the hard-work ethic, intelligence, or anyone/anything going for them that are going to need help.
Besides the very patronising tone of your use of 'unfortunates' (as if they were suffering from some severe disability.... many of those people may have OTHER things going for them, even if you can't see it), the bolded part amounts to what I call the 'God complex'. Being more than twice your age, I've seen other people who thought they were invincible, only to get a very harsh wake-up call when they had to come to terms with their own fragility as human beings - which of course doesn't mean I am wishing you any ill, on the contrary.
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
Posted: March 27 2009 at 07:18
Be it resolved, those who trot out "socialism" as some kind of boogieman either don't have a clue or are looking to deceive those who don't have a clue.
Amazing to see this thread go 12 pages in such a short span of time. Imagine where the homosexuality thread would have gone if it hadn't got pinched off.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
Posted: March 27 2009 at 08:25
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
Negoba wrote:
#1. Social Status of your parents
#2. Ambition of your parents
#3. Your social skills
#4. Your willingness to accept pain
#5. Luck
#6. Intelligence
#13. Hard work
#1. I don't see as a big deal (but knock me for it if you want).
#2. Works fine because my parents are ambitious enough and expect me to be so as well.
#3 Thank god my social skills have grown since high school.
#4 Sure, if the reward is significant enough to me.
#5. Would you accept "knowing the right people"?
#6. Got plenty of that. I'm glad I finally realize it.
Hmmmmmmm. I thought of a lot of these things as being derived from "hard work". Perhaps my definition was much more broad than yours.
I guess my top 5 would be, in no particular order: Hard work Intelligence Luck Social Skills Background (Educational and Family ones)
Could you explain why you have parents' social status at #1 though? Because right now I think it's utter BS.
Also, what are #7-#12?
The social status of your parents is not derived from your hard work at all, and only occasionally is based on theirs. Their ambition is also independent of hard work. Social skills and intelligence are pretty much what you're gifted with.
The big one is #4. People confuse #4 and hard work. They certainly aren't independent but they aren't the same thing either.
Obviously this list was pretty flip on my part. But #1 has been documented in studies and I should probably look them up before referring to them. It usually comes up in the old debates that school performance doesn't correlate with career performance all that well.
Frankly after a night of sleeping on it, I would put "insider knowledge" as #2. Basically knowing the system (whichever one you're in, be it school, work site, meetings) and how to work it. I have seen many people I really admire work their tails off but because they don't have this skill, they really don't "get anywhere." They do tend to keep their heads above water, but it's a little tragic to watch.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: March 27 2009 at 09:08
Negoba wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
Negoba wrote:
#1. Social Status of your parents
#2. Ambition of your parents
#3. Your social skills
#4. Your willingness to accept pain
#5. Luck
#6. Intelligence
#13. Hard work
#1. I don't see as a big deal (but knock me for it if you want).
#2. Works fine because my parents are ambitious enough and expect me to be so as well.
#3 Thank god my social skills have grown since high school.
#4 Sure, if the reward is significant enough to me.
#5. Would you accept "knowing the right people"?
#6. Got plenty of that. I'm glad I finally realize it.
Hmmmmmmm. I thought of a lot of these things as being derived from "hard work". Perhaps my definition was much more broad than yours.
I guess my top 5 would be, in no particular order: Hard work Intelligence Luck Social Skills Background (Educational and Family ones)
Could you explain why you have parents' social status at #1 though? Because right now I think it's utter BS.
Also, what are #7-#12?
The social status of your parents is not derived from your hard work at all, and only occasionally is based on theirs. Their ambition is also independent of hard work. Social skills and intelligence are pretty much what you're gifted with.
The big one is #4. People confuse #4 and hard work. They certainly aren't independent but they aren't the same thing either.
Obviously this list was pretty flip on my part. But #1 has been documented in studies and I should probably look them up before referring to them. It usually comes up in the old debates that school performance doesn't correlate with career performance all that well.
Frankly after a night of sleeping on it, I would put "insider knowledge" as #2. Basically knowing the system (whichever one you're in, be it school, work site, meetings) and how to work it. I have seen many people I really admire work their tails off but because they don't have this skill, they really don't "get anywhere." They do tend to keep their heads above water, but it's a little tragic to watch.
I would go as far as to say this follows a square-law - #1 is twice as important and #2, which is twice as important as #3 etc. So someone who is bereft of the first three levels is 8 times less likely to succeed and that #13 alone will never got you to the top.
Also, Money is an important factor that is missing from your list (though it is implied in #1)
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Posted: March 27 2009 at 11:42
^Calm down Peter... certainly we can add this question to the "unsolved dilemmas" pantheon... of which of course "what is prog, does anyone have a clue" is the most distinguished guest.....
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
Posted: March 27 2009 at 11:57
The T wrote:
^Calm down Peter... certainly we can add this question to the "unsolved dilemmas" pantheon... of which of course "what is prog, does anyone have a clue" is the most distinguished guest.....
:
prog n also proggin's* OED ~ sb2 1; EDD 11. Food (for a meal or 'lunch'); victuals, grub or winter supplies. Also attrib. 1869 MCCREA 237 Our little baskets of prog—hard-boiled eggs, cold tongue, fowl, and sandwiches, with a screw of salt—lay ready open. [1891] 1981 Evening Telegram 28 Sep, p. 6 The hunters began to 'make our prog' (i.e. putting their pork, flour and tea, etc into loads). 1933 MERRICK 103 A progbag is to a trapper what a dittybox is to a sailor. In it he carries a few matches, a few candies and cartridges, a spare pair of sox, his pencil. an awl and crooked-knife, a snowshoe needle, sewing materials, deerskin and sealskin patches and other cherished encumbrances. 1955 DOYLE (ed) 52 "Sealers' Song": Though short of grog still lots of prog / To bring us home quite hearty. P 126-67 Bring along the prog tub [for the fishing boat]. P 184-67 Tell the missus I won't be home prog time. 1971 Evening Telegram 22 Apr. p. 3 Don't forget the prog bag [for the picnic]. C 71-38 At supper time she would call, 'Come in to your proggins.'
There! Settled at last!
Edited by Peter - March 27 2009 at 11:59
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Socialism.. does anyone have a clue.
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birdwithteeth11 wrote:
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:
There! Settled at last! 