Free Will vs. Determinism |
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 03 2007 Location: The Heartland Status: Offline Points: 17144 |
Topic: Free Will vs. Determinism Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:01 |
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One of the most spirited debates I ever witnessed was a group of friends arguing about this one night. Since all of these guys were insanely smart guys, and all had been partaking in copious amounts of ...ahem....inspiration.......the debated was loud, animated, and really fun to behold.
I largely stayed out of it, though I am a determinist. My view is that free will appeals to youth and strength, and makes the most sense in that context. Once you get a bit older and realize how little control you really have in this world, I think the school of determinism begins to make some sense. But I freely admit I am no philosophical scholar. We have some deep thinkers here. Have at it!! Explain your vote!! |
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer Joined: January 09 2008 Location: Beasty Heart Status: Offline Points: 32181 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:02 | |
I'm much more an advocate of free will than I am determinism.
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Captain Capricorn
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 21 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1085 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:04 | |
I'm gonna go with Spinoza on this one...
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 36823 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:09 | |
Definitely determinism
I did a little topic pitting two songs that fit this topic here --> http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47173 I'll repost some of my thoughts. I'm a determinist, a rather hard one in fact, which means that I don't believe that the will can be truly free because our decisions are so influenced by environmental and hereditary factors that it determines the eventual outcome (there is more I would like to say on that, but it takes some explaining so I'll leave it at that). For some, they can believe in free will (libertarian), some believe that the mind can break free of causality, and some some say free will within limits. Due to causal chains, due to our heredity and environment, our "decisions" are forced. We think things through (weigh up), but internal and external influences force the resolution, ergo it is not truly "free" will. In becoming aware of the forces that cause us to choose, it may seem that we can effect a new causal chain by making choices that go against our temperament, but that choice would also be determined by factors out of our control. For instance, we are forced to see a psychiatrist for beating our children, and he eventually convinces us that our desire to beat our children regularly is caused by a troubled childhood. He also links our beatings with alcoholism. He trains us to eschew alcoholism and to stop beating the children. This training causes us to act in a different way, but whether or not we accept the training is beyond our control. It is dependent upon the efficacy of the psychiatrist’s intervention, as well as our natural inclinations; for instance, whether or not we feel guilt over the beatings, and, therefore, want to change. Even the causal chains that have led to our awareness force our hand, and, therefore, our will is never free, as I see it. I feel that free will is a delusion… People
rationalise, and play semantics games with what free will truly means as
well. I do believe that our actions are determined by causal chains that
are out of our control (A causes B causes C… haha, what causes A then?
Not to get into a first cause discussion). Now I wouldn’t phrase it in
the fanciful way “demented forces push me madly round the treadmill” because I
believe in a rational universe, and am more prosaic than poetic. As I mentioned earlier, I
expect that many people deceive themselves into believing that their decisions
are free from causal chains that result in a necessary action because this
gives them a sense of empowerment. It is uncomfortable to think that all
of our actions and choices are determined by hereditary and environmental
factors; that in any given circumstance our decisions are fixed by our past
experiences, environmental stimuli, and our genetic makeup. However, I
believe that forces beyond our control fix our decisions – and I’m inclined to
say that we cannot alter those forces anymore than we can change the laws of
gravity. But I offer my own qualifiers to help help empower me.
Whether I contradict myself is fine for me. I’m a materialist essentially,
but I still believe in moral responsibility. In becoming aware of the
forces that cause us to choose, it may seem that we can effect a new causal
chain, or alter our course, our fate if you will (self-determination) by making
choices that go against our temperament, but that choice would also be
determined by factors out of our control by my way of thinking. There is also a compatibilist (soft
determinsist) idea out there that there is a distinction between immediate
“internal” and “external” causes which "saves" the idea of freedom
(agency). A deterministic view is taken that all actions are
completely determined by causes, including internal and external causes, but
internal (psychological, physiological) causes are thought of as free because
there are no outside forces at work. Really this a semantics argument for
me. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me (mind you, it is argued
intelligently). Because I believe that our internal reasons for action,
being determined by past external events and heredity, are so enmeshed within
the external that the two cannot be sufficiently, or indeed at all, separated
to accept the notion of free will. Outside forces do not work on us in a
vacuum, they work together with our internal training, and physiology, to determine
our actions. As to the libertarian (theory of agency)
stance (well there are different camps there), I have some fundamental problems
with it. While both determinists and libertarians accept that causal
chains exist, libertarians are compelled to advance the vague idea of a self
that can somehow transcend causal chains. Occam’s razor, y' know, the
idea that utilising the minimum number of necessary assumptions is best… I’m
inclined to believe that hard determinism is a better view because it is simpler.
It dispenses with unknowable metaphysical notions, and presents what is
empirically evident; that there are causes behind all actions and decisions. Soft
determinism is problematic for me because it is illogical to associate free
actions with a causal chain that always leads to an inevitable action.
The libertarian notion that there are causal chains, which can be broken
through careful deliberation, is also problematic. "If you choose not to
decide, you still have made a choice." What causes us to carefully
deliberate, and come to a conclusion? Surely we deliberate because we
have been trained not to come to a hasty conclusion when matters are of
importance. Our conclusion is dependent upon our weighing up the pros and
cons, the pros being conducive to our desires, which are determined by various
psychological and physiological factors. If we did not deliberate we
might come to a conclusion different from a conclusion arrived at with
deliberation, but our caused conditions dictate the extent to which we
deliberate, and, therefore, determine our decision. I’ll be the roundabout. Therefore, it is unnecessary in my view to resort to vague metaphysical notions of the self in order to explain the process of deliberation. Not that important to the discussion, but I also believe in, let's say semi-conscious and sub-conscious decisions. That our conscious mind is acting in coordination with our sub or semi conscious mind (I do believe in internal and external factors when it comes to deliberation and execution). We consciously deliberate and these facets of our mind effect resolution (we we react in any given situation). The subconscious is "programmed," if you will, and the "conscious mind" is being affected by external and internal factors. Still not free will. But if one believes in "free will" as a concept can depend on how one defines it. Rather like some of the categories at this site, ;), we can define things into existence. Edited by Logan - March 26 2009 at 18:10 |
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LinusW
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 27 2007 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 10665 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:09 | |
Is it really impossible for the two to co-exist?
Nature versus nurture. |
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Vompatti
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: October 22 2005 Location: elsewhere Status: Offline Points: 67442 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:10 | |
I voted for determinism. I just couldn't help it.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 03 2007 Location: The Heartland Status: Offline Points: 17144 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:12 | |
Linus, that's the one thing that frustrated me most that night. Yes, both of the smart guys on each side said you absolutely could not have both.....you had to choose a side or you were full of sh*t. I can't remember *why* they were so adamant about that, but they were....on both sides of the debate. And they did have fancy sounding explanations, I just don't remember....it was a long time ago. You were probably a toddler then! |
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 03 2007 Location: The Heartland Status: Offline Points: 17144 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:14 | |
This is already the best answer of the night!!! |
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:14 | |
I don't know how determinists can go through life. At least the nihilist has control over his life even if it's ultimately pointless.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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LinusW
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 27 2007 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 10665 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:14 | |
I just think extremes are more interesting for being absolute and easy to grasp. Yet that's not how I experience the world.
Edited by LinusW - March 26 2009 at 18:15 |
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Captain Capricorn
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 21 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1085 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:15 | |
you had no choice
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darkshade
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 19 2005 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 10964 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:18 | |
i thought this was a Rush poll.............
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Captain Capricorn
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 21 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1085 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:24 | |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 36823 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:33 | |
Like mine that I linked to (pus Wyatt), and I will choose "Free Will and Testament" over "Freewill." |
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Raff
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24429 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:39 | |
I remember Greg's thread (which was unfortunately short-lived), and I will repeat here what I wrote there. I am what you would call a 'soft determinist' - I believe you can achieve a lot through your will, but this does not mean that there won't be factors out of your control that will influence your life in a way you can't control (like having a serious accident through no fault of your own, or getting seriously ill). As I said in that thread, I see the advocates of 'free will above everything' as suffering from some sort of God complex, as I call it. Unfortunately, as we see every day, we are not God, and we would do well to remember how vulnerable we can be.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 36823 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:54 | |
It was short-lived, but some excellent comments by people such as yourself, Raff. I had a more soft-deterministic stance at one time which I'd really worked out well, and liked to go on about at pubs, but subsequently the ideas dissolved into the ephemera as the pistons of my brain began to misfire and then cut out (but this is not the place to discuss the sad, atrophied, dysfunctional state of my brain).
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 18:57 | |
I believe in free will. Determinism makes a lot of sense, but I somehow just think I can freely choose something. I think the philosophy of determinism is just trying to nail something into your head when all your past experience and everything you've known about life screams the opposite.
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Alberto Muñoz
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 26 2006 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 3577 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 19:08 | |
For debate let's set clear:
What do we understand for both concepts determinist and free will, the vulgar? the scientific? the philosohic?, the religious?
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TheCaptain
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2009 Location: Ohio, USA Status: Offline Points: 1335 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 19:08 | |
Being a pretty big science guy, I go with determinism. Everything can be broken down into atoms, which can be broken down to quarks and are now believed to be broken down to strings. These strings vibrate in some manner which then is reflected in the quarks, then atoms-> molecules-> neurons. If neurons firing produces what we think then there isn't anything we can do. Quantum mechanics determines what we do. There isn't any free will.
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Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 03 2007 Location: The Heartland Status: Offline Points: 17144 |
Posted: March 26 2009 at 19:12 | |
I understand there are many ways to approach this and many variations of the position. I really didn't want to get bogged down in that, so I state the question in a general way....."which view is closer to you?" meaning it doesn't have to be absolutely defined. View the question through whatever lens you wish and just clarify in your answer if you have alternate approaches. |
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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