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horsewithteeth11 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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 Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:02 |
 James wrote:
But is it like-for-like?
I mean, if a guy broke in, wasn't armed, would you shoot him for self-defence?
Or would it only be the case if he was armed with a gun?
I'm just curious.
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If a guy broke into my house and wasn't armed, yet I had a gun, I would probably give him a verbal warning to get the hell out. If he ignored it or tried to attack me, then yes, I'd use it in self-defense. But if he goes after my family, I might temporarily lose proper judgment and shoot him regardless. I tend to get fairly emotional when it comes to my family. Aren't we getting a bit off-topic here though? 
Edited by birdwithteeth11 - March 26 2009 at 16:03
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darkshade
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: November 19 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 10964
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:03 |
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you guys must realize, we are human beings, talking about other human beings and how to fix human-caused problems using human-type solutions
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:04 |
James wrote:
Anyhow... Socialism! 
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See, James realizes that we're getting off-topic too! Smart bugger.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:04 |
James wrote:
But is it like-for-like?
I mean, if a guy broke in, wasn't armed, would you shoot him for self-defence?
Or would it only be the case if he was armed with a gun?
I'm just curious.
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the laws are pretty grey in that... 'self-defense' is often up to the jury from what I've read... but you would be sent before a court and a jury. A good lawyer can get you off... fear is a strong emotion to play upon... look the GOP here... they've made it the focus of all they stand for.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:05 |
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
I also hope that last sentence was sarcasm. Because it's a really poor and insensitive example of it IMO.
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Hell, that whole post was sarcastic. And poor and insensitive and hopefully a little thought provoking as well.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:06 |
Although I'm obviously very liberal, darkshade's comment is the reality. If the nature of humans is to stratify and use each other, should we attempt to fight it. If it's written in our genetic code that the strong will exploit the weak, who are we to pretend otherwise?
Before you rightwingies get too excited it's probably also in our genetic code to want to fornicate with everything and anything that's warm and wet, so......
Just thoughts....carry on.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:08 |
James wrote:
Anyhow... Socialism! 
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Yes. Socialism. Every day I get up and go to work. My salary is set by my boss, his salary is set by his boss and in turn his salary is set by some guy living in LA who cares little for what we do as long as we make a profit each year.
Whether I'm working class (as born) or middle class (through education and employment) - I still work for a living. Hard work got me where I am today, but it will not get me any further - all it will do is maintain the status quo. Until such time comes to pass where I have an independant income, I shall remain a socialist.
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What?
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:11 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
I also hope that last sentence was sarcasm. Because it's a really poor and insensitive example of it IMO.
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Hell, that whole post was sarcastic. And poor and insensitive and hopefully a little thought provoking as well.
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I can't think of any way to address that post without a personal attack, so I won't say anything. Despite it though, being "thought provoking" and saying "Maybe God wants someone to rob your house and kill you and your family" is going too far. Anyway, I'm done with tangents. Back to talking about socialism! 
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:16 |
Dean wrote:
James wrote:
Anyhow... Socialism!
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Yes. Socialism. Every day I get up and go to work. My salary is set by my boss, his salary is set by his boss and in turn his salary is set by some guy living in LA who cares little for what we do as long as we make a profit each year.
Whether I'm working class (as born) or middle class (through education and employment) - I still work for a living. Hard work got me where I am today, but it will not get me any further - all it will do is maintain the status quo. Until such time comes to pass where I have an independant income, I shall remain a socialist. |
But hard work and a good education did advance you some, correct? And as it has already been mentioned, not everyone is going to climb all the way to the top of the economic ladder. Some people have succeeded and others have failed. That part of humanity isn't going to change.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:17 |
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exactly.... it's like Brian said earlier... people here need to wake up.. grow up.... lose the Horacio Alger myth...
I work hard... am one of the best in my field, not just in the company.. but this area... college educated where a HS diploma is a plus... will I ever move up...
no... probably not.... I am a tool to be exploited by my company... I make them money where I am at now...
do I care... no.... because I am one of the highest paid for my position in the company... they pay me what I'm worth... that is what it is all about... but spare me this myth of upward moblity through hard work.... it is the carrot on a stick the powers that be have put in front of the noses of the american worker... and since people here largely seem to like to be told by their radio personalities or their churches what to think... they hever realize the myth.. see it for what it is...
rant over....
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:21 |
Warning, I'm going to try to be rational....I think most would agree that any code of social behavior has to have a balance of respect for individual needs and social needs.
Also, I think that previous social revolutions have shown that total communal living just doesn't work for the human creature.
And the United States is a great example where neglecting social needs results in society that is, at minimum, less than the people in supposedly the most prosperous nation deserve. At worst.....well I'm trying to be rational.
Conclusion...it's always going to be a balancing act. It doesn't take a genius to see that the US was and still is in dire need of nudging in the social needs direction. And it's probably good that there are some people trying to put the brakes on a little so the pendulum doesn't swing to far.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:23 |
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
Dean wrote:
James wrote:
Anyhow... Socialism!
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Yes. Socialism. Every day I get up and go to work. My salary is set by my boss, his salary is set by his boss and in turn his salary is set by some guy living in LA who cares little for what we do as long as we make a profit each year.
Whether I'm working class (as born) or middle class (through education and employment) - I still work for a living. Hard work got me where I am today, but it will not get me any further - all it will do is maintain the status quo. Until such time comes to pass where I have an independant income, I shall remain a socialist. |
But hard work and a good education did advance you some, correct?
And as it has already been mentioned, not everyone is going to climb all the way to the top of the economic ladder. Some people have succeeded and others have failed. That part of humanity isn't going to change.
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You're an intelligent person. I see some significant disillusionment in your future.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:24 |
micky wrote:
exactly.... it's like Brian said earlier... people here need to wake up.. grow up.... lose the Horacio Alger myth...
I work hard... am one of the best in my field, not just in the company.. but this area... college educated where a HS diploma is a plus... will I ever move up...
no... probably not.... I am a tool to be exploited by my company... I make them money where I am at now...
do I care... no.... because I am one of the highest paid for my position in the company... they pay me what I'm worth... that is what it is all about... but spare me this myth of upward moblity through hard work.... it is the carrot on a stick the powers that be have put in front of the noses of the american worker... and since people here largely seem to like to be told by their radio personalities or their churches what to think... they hever realize the myth.. see it for what it is...
rant over....
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While I think Andrew Carnegie was scum, I'm pretty sure he would disagree about the whole mobility thing. I'm not saying that people can move all the way to the top. But education is certainly a great equalizer in this country (like we have anything else that works that way). And why do you think so many minorities remain in poverty? Gee, terrible education opportunities probably don't have anything to do with it, do they? My point being, education = power and advantage.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:27 |
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
My point being, education = power and advantage.
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Socialist!!!!
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:27 |
micky wrote:
exactly.... it's like Brian said earlier... people here need to wake up.. grow up.... lose the Horacio Alger myth...
I work hard... am one of the best in my field, not just in the company.. but this area... college educated where a HS diploma is a plus... will I ever move up...
no... probably not.... I am a tool to be exploited by my company... I make them money where I am at now...
do I care... no.... because I am one of the highest paid for my position in the company... they pay me what I'm worth... that is what it is all about... but spare me this myth of upward moblity through hard work.... it is the carrot on a stick the powers that be have put in front of the noses of the american worker... and since people here largely seem to like to be told by their radio personalities or their churches what to think... they hever realize the myth.. see it for what it is...
rant over....
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Exactly. It's who you know, not what you know. It also helps if you have a particular personality as well. I've read about a First World War Fighter pilot who didn't especially have a high victory count but he did command a high position. Apparently he was Officer material and that's why he came up quickly through the ranks. If your personality does not fit or you argue the toss too much, then you won't get as far. Just be a sheep but also occasionally be forward and ask for that pay-rise too. There is a small element of working hard but it really isn't that high, from what I can tell.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:27 |
Negoba wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
Dean wrote:
James wrote:
Anyhow... Socialism!
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Yes. Socialism. Every day I get up and go to work. My salary is set by my boss, his salary is set by his boss and in turn his salary is set by some guy living in LA who cares little for what we do as long as we make a profit each year.
Whether I'm working class (as born) or middle class (through education and employment) - I still work for a living. Hard work got me where I am today, but it will not get me any further - all it will do is maintain the status quo. Until such time comes to pass where I have an independant income, I shall remain a socialist. |
But hard work and a good education did advance you some, correct?
And as it has already been mentioned, not everyone is going to climb all the way to the top of the economic ladder. Some people have succeeded and others have failed. That part of humanity isn't going to change.
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You're an intelligent person. I see some significant disillusionment in your future. |
and a degree of cynicism that will come with that disillusionment
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What?
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:31 |
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
I can't think of any way to address that post without a personal attack, so I won't say anything.
Despite it though, being "thought provoking" and saying "Maybe God wants someone to rob your house and kill you and your family" is going too far.
Anyway, I'm done with tangents. Back to talking about socialism!
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If you can't challenge my comments without a personal attack, what exactly does that say about you? And then after saying you wouldn't say anything you proceeded to say something.  I was starting to get off into the whole free will vs God's will vs guns, which I admit doesn't have a lot to do with socialism, but seeing how he didn't actually have someone break into his house and kill his family, it's not too insensitive.
Edited by Slartibartfast - March 26 2009 at 16:44
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:32 |
Negoba wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
Dean wrote:
James wrote:
Anyhow... Socialism!
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Yes. Socialism. Every day I get up and go to work. My salary is set by my boss, his salary is set by his boss and in turn his salary is set by some guy living in LA who cares little for what we do as long as we make a profit each year.
Whether I'm working class (as born) or middle class (through education and employment) - I still work for a living. Hard work got me where I am today, but it will not get me any further - all it will do is maintain the status quo. Until such time comes to pass where I have an independant income, I shall remain a socialist. |
But hard work and a good education did advance you some, correct?
And as it has already been mentioned, not everyone is going to climb all the way to the top of the economic ladder. Some people have succeeded and others have failed. That part of humanity isn't going to change.
|
You're an intelligent person. I see some significant disillusionment in your future. |
What do you mean by "significant disillusionment"? About how you get screwed over in the workplace and no one else really gives a damn? I spent my last summer vacation working as a grunt in a warehouse for a company that packs and ships college textbooks. I saw my fair share of that. Especially since some of the people who worked there and weren't college students treated those of us who were like crap. And I suspect part of the reason was jealousy. I have an opportunity to get further in life than that with a degree in Finance, whereas Joe Smith who spends 8 hours per day 5 days a week packing textbooks in a warehouse probably never had that opportunity and never will. I may be lower to middle middle-class, but I'm thankful of what opportunities I get. I'll work hard and claw my way up and it's not going to be an easy task for sure. But it's not impossible.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:36 |
Disillusionment about work being even in the top 5 of the elements that go into your eventual economical success in this world.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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Posted: March 26 2009 at 16:37 |
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Socialism.. does anyone have a clue.
