Health care question

OK, let me start with saying that, for most people at least, the grass is always greener, therefore what they have sucks by default... until they try something else, and realise that things were not so bad in the first place. In Italy there are a lot of problems with healthcare, but from what I know the bad rap it gets is very often undeserved, and even if you pay extra out of your own pocket it doesn't mean you will get better care. I know of at least two people who died as a result of the treatment they got in very expensive private clinics, and my mom herself was probably the victim of a misdiagnosis, in spite of of all the money she paid to the hospital where she was treated.

Anyway, I can tell you that most Italians, even if they b****h and moan all the time about our healthcare system, are very disapproving of the US system, and think it is a very uncivilised thing not to have  universal healthcare. I had such a conversation with my brother before I left, and he's far from being a leftist firebrand (that's more like me). Personally, though I have been so lucky so far as not to have any serious health issues, I can't deny the whole healthcare situation in the US is a big cause for concern. I am now insured through my spouse, but I am also aware that, in the case of something really serious, it could not be enough, and I would have to pay out of my own pocket. Even though I have substantial savings in the bank, I would hate to see them disappear just because I got sick.

That said, I've read a lot about this issue on that immigration forum I sometimes visit, and I can say one thing with absolute honesty: denying people healthcare, or causing them to go bankrupt in order to save their lives, is barbaric, and goes against any notion of human decency. And, for those who say that government-provided healthcare is bad by definition, and people die because of poor care or long waits, I seem to remember that one of our members recently died because of a medical screw-up, in spite of the big bucks he must have spent in order to have insurance.


Edited by Raff - March 23 2009 at 10:47

The NHS is pretty good, and it's getting better; more beaurocratic and management heavy, of course, but thats just the NuLab way of doing things.

As a whole the NHS is excellent. The problem is, British people are whinging b*****ds at the best of times. Look at me, for example!!!! Sometimes we have reason to whinge, but when we do, thats all you hear about. Our news is not going to report the hundreds of thousands of successes within the NHS, that obviously occur every year.

While I want this thread to remain on health and not politics, yes, those of you outside of the US should know that in America, "universal health care" is considered akin to communism by many.  They consider it a total leftist threat to have any kind of "right" to health care. 

I would not be opposed to a market system *if it worked* well.  But it does not work well for far too many. 

stonebeard wrote: Oh sure, if the government could actually manage anything without f**king it up, then it might be a pretty cool idea.  Sad thing is that recent events have shown us the American government doesn't know how to spend more than $5 without apportioning it to special interests and unrelated projects.

A fair point, which is why I want to know if the countries I mentioned *are* making it work---can we learn from their successes or implement a similar system?

I mentioned this in the atheist bus campaign thread, but it's worth saying again here: some things make no sense as rights, health care being one of them.

It makes sense to talk about whether everyone is entitled to health care, but a right is something you already have (without being given it, you just have it simply for existing) and which can't be taken away.  An entitlement is something people are required to give you.  Health care falls into the latter category.

As for whether an entitlement to health care exists, I don't know.  The one thing I do know is that the less medical service itself is tangled up in the government, the more efficient it will be.  If there is an entitlement to health granted, it damn well better be accompanied by restrictions on what it covers so that people don't clog up emergency rooms for trivial injuries.

Perhaps an entitlement to health care makes sense in the case of life-threatening or debilitating diseases, but not in terms of everyday maladies, for which you'd either have to pay extra out of pocket to be insured, or for which you could forgo medical insurance.

The biggest problem is that you can only fund it by taking away money from the people who don't need gov't paying for their health care, so it is very much a glorified Robin Hood scheme in that sense.  And that makes me very uncomfortable.

InvisibleUnicorns wrote: I mentioned this in the atheist bus campaign thread, but it's worth saying again here: some things make no sense as rights, health care being one of them. It makes sense to talk about whether everyone is entitled to health care, but a right is something you already have (without being given it, you just have it simply for existing) and which can't be taken away.  An entitlement is something people are required to give you.  Health care falls into the latter category.  [Fair distinction and agreed] As for whether an entitlement to health care exists, I don't know.  The one thing I do know is that the less medical service itself is tangled up in the government, the more efficient it will be.  [In the States, the Gov run VA health-care system actually led a few years back in improvements and showed great reforms.  I think we have to be careful with proclaiming that Gov has no ability to improve anything.] If there is an entitlement to health granted, it damn well better be accompanied by restrictions on what it covers so that people don't clog up emergency rooms for trivial injuries. Perhaps an entitlement to health care makes sense in the case of life-threatening or debilitating diseases, but not in terms of everyday maladies, for which you'd either have to pay extra out of pocket to be insured, or for which you could forgo medical insurance. The biggest problem is that you can only fund it by taking away money from the people who don't need gov't paying for their health care, so it is very much a glorified Robin Hood scheme in that sense.  And that makes me very uncomfortable.  [I'm not opposed to progressive taxation-but I understand many are-thing is we are doing it now by sending people to the ER for basic healthcare....we all pay for that expensive mis-use.]

NaturalScience wrote: I'd like to direct this at UK citizens:  what is the current state of medical malpractice in Britain? Can you sue physicians, hospitals, etc. (are physicians considered "government" employees?)

Medical suits are certainly not the norm here, neither are they unheard of - I think the difference is (and forgive me if this is a gross generalisation) the UK does not have a litigious/compensation culture (despite the efforts of various spurious legal practices a few years ago, it just didn't really catch on); on occasion a case may hit the headlines, but it's certainly not that common.

As Blacksword says, it's east to complain about the NHS and yes, it does have its faults, but in 99.999% (recurring) of cases it is a system which works; it's bloody expensive to the tax-payer, but anything worth having is, surely - I for one think a health service free to all at the point of use is worth paying for.

I would never even consider a shift to the US system. But we have a completely different taxation culture here. 

Finnforest wrote: Mike...I hear you hate your health care on conservative talk radio, which I listen to balance my exposure because I'm told the mainstream media is liberal propaganda.

I can hear it now...

"The Canadians don't know what they're talking about! They all smoke too much of the medicinal and all the brain operations that they all got for free is messing with the way they think! Canada doesn't like not having to worry about health care - so we shouldn't envy them! Keep paying your massive bills and don't move to Canada!"

Slartibartfast wrote: It seems per the terms of the post that launched this thread I am not permitted to discuss my healthcare experience as a US cititizen so that's all I'm going to say...

Brian, the intent here was to hear the opinions of people actually *using* government health-care and I do wish that to be the case.

But hey man, no one is stopping you from starting the counter thread to discuss you American experience!!!  Have at it, no one is trying to *muzzle* you.