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Health care question

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Topic: Health care question
Posted By: Finnforest
Subject: Health care question
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 10:08
As the United States debates significant changes to our health care system, a private-insurance system which leaves close to 50 million Americans with no coverage, I would like to ask countries with national health coverage if they would choose to keep their system or move to the American one. 

What we hear in the States is that you folks in Britain, Scandinavia, Canada, etc, who have "single-payer government health care", we hear from the media that you hate your health care, you think it sucks, and that we should be thrilled with our private insurance here (even though it leaves so many behind and frankly sucks for many of us who do have it---for those who don't know, private insurers FIGHT you constantly about who pays what, it's an exhausting process for sick people to deal with).  Having private insurance does not mean you are on easy street, believe me.  You will also pay BIG bucks for the privilege of having insurance.

My question is a loaded one full of opinion, I understand that.  But I would like to hear from those in countries who have a NHS or something similar.  Two questions: 

1) Have you had a net-positive or negative experience with your treatment?

2) Would you trade it for our American system of supposed better quality, but no guarantees of coverage and the possibility of losing coverage if you lose your job?

Please answer only if you live in a country with government-provided health care


Obviously I think our American system of "sink or swin" sucks, but if the NHS citizens of the world also hate their health-care, then perhaps we should keep what we have.  Educate me. 





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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"



Replies:
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 10:45
OK, let me start with saying that, for most people at least, the grass is always greener, therefore what they have sucks by default... until they try something else, and realise that things were not so bad in the first place. In Italy there are a lot of problems with healthcare, but from what I know the bad rap it gets is very often undeserved, and even if you pay extra out of your own pocket it doesn't mean you will get better care. I know of at least two people who died as a result of the treatment they got in very expensive private clinics, and my mom herself was probably the victim of a misdiagnosis, in spite of of all the money she paid to the hospital where she was treated.

Anyway, I can tell you that most Italians, even if they b****h and moan all the time about our healthcare system, are very disapproving of the US system, and think it is a very uncivilised thing not to have  universal healthcare. I had such a conversation with my brother before I left, and he's far from being a leftist firebrand (that's more like meLOL). Personally, though I have been so lucky so far as not to have any serious health issues, I can't deny the whole healthcare situation in the US is a big cause for concern. I am now insured through my spouse, but I am also aware that, in the case of something really serious, it could not be enough, and I would have to pay out of my own pocket. Even though I have substantial savings in the bank, I would hate to see them disappear just because I got sick.

That said, I've read a lot about this issue on that immigration forum I sometimes visit, and I can say one thing with absolute honesty: denying people healthcare, or causing them to go bankrupt in order to save their lives, is barbaric, and goes against any notion of human decency. And, for those who say that government-provided healthcare is bad by definition, and people die because of poor care or long waits, I seem to remember that one of our members recently died because of a medical screw-up, in spite of the big bucks he must have spent in order to have insurance.


Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 11:06
Thanks Raff for an objective opinion, yours will be most important going forward as you have the unique experience of actually trying both philosophies first-hand. 

I agree wholeheartedly it is barbaric to make a person go bankrupt because they get sick.  One should not have to "lose it all" because of illness and that is where I start my considerations of this debate.  My fear is that Obama is actually going to do the worst possible thing.  Kill private insurance affordability through employers but keep the private system, without going to single-payer.  In other words, putting every man for him/her self against the corporate insurance power, under the guise of "freedom to choose."  

Freedom to die poor will be more like it. 


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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"


Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 11:10
The NHS is pretty good, and it's getting better; more beaurocratic and management heavy, of course, but thats just the NuLab way of doing things.

As a whole the NHS is excellent. The problem is, British people are whinging b*****ds at the best of times. Look at me, for example!!!! Sometimes we have reason to whinge, but when we do, thats all you hear about. Our news is not going to report the hundreds of thousands of successes within the NHS, that obviously occur every year.



Posted By: Jimbo
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 11:15
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

OK, let me start with saying that, for most people at least, the grass is always greener, therefore what they have sucks by default... until they try something else, and realise that things were not so bad in the first place. In Italy there are a lot of problems with healthcare, but from what I know the bad rap it gets is very often undeserved, and even if you pay extra out of your own pocket it doesn't mean you will get better care. I know of at least two people who died as a result of the treatment they got in very expensive private clinics, and my mom herself was probably the victim of a misdiagnosis, in spite of of all the money she paid to the hospital where she was treated.

Anyway, I can tell you that most Italians, even if they b****h and moan all the time about our healthcare system, are very disapproving of the US system, and think it is a very uncivilised thing not to have  universal healthcare. I had such a conversation with my brother before I left, and he's far from being a leftist firebrand (that's more like meLOL). Personally, though I have been so lucky so far as not to have any serious health issues, I can't deny the whole healthcare situation in the US is a big cause for concern. I am now insured through my spouse, but I am also aware that, in the case of something really serious, it could not be enough, and I would have to pay out of my own pocket. Even though I have substantial savings in the bank, I would hate to see them disappear just because I got sick.

That said, I've read a lot about this issue on that immigration forum I sometimes visit, and I can say one thing with absolute honesty: denying people healthcare, or causing them to go bankrupt in order to save their lives, is barbaric, and goes against any notion of human decency. And, for those who say that government-provided healthcare is bad by definition, and people die because of poor care or long waits, I seem to remember that one of our members recently died because of a medical screw-up, in spite of the big bucks he must have spent in order to have insurance.

I share your sentiments 100%. I'm not sure I'd ever have your courage to live in the US though, for reasons mentioned above (I don't have such savings Embarrassed). If this is seen as leftist bullsh*t, so be it, but that's the way I feel.


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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 11:21
While I want this thread to remain on health and not politics, yes, those of you outside of the US should know that in America, "universal health care" is considered akin to communism by many.  They consider it a total leftist threat to have any kind of "right" to health care. 

I would not be opposed to a market system *if it worked* well.  But it does not work well for far too many. 


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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"


Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 11:25
Oh sure, if the government could actually manage anything without f**king it up, then it might be a pretty cool idea. Cool Sad thing is that recent events have shown us the American government doesn't know how to spend more than $5 without apportioning it to special interests and unrelated projects.

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http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!


Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 11:27
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Oh sure, if the government could actually manage anything without f**king it up, then it might be a pretty cool idea. Cool Sad thing is that recent events have shown us the American government doesn't know how to spend more than $5 without apportioning it to special interests and unrelated projects.



A fair point, which is why I want to know if the countries I mentioned *are* making it work---can we learn from their successes or implement a similar system?




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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 11:29
I'd like to direct this at UK citizens:  what is the current state of medical malpractice in Britain? Can you sue physicians, hospitals, etc. (are physicians considered "government" employees?)  Are monies paid out in such suits (if they exist) capped in any way?

Folks in other countries can of course feel free to answer the same question as it pertains to their nation, understanding that Jim's caveat that you are under a national health service or some sort of universal coverage.


Posted By: InvisibleUnicorns
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 11:30
I mentioned this in the atheist bus campaign thread, but it's worth saying again here: some things make no sense as rights, health care being one of them.

It makes sense to talk about whether everyone is entitled to health care, but a right is something you already have (without being given it, you just have it simply for existing) and which can't be taken away.  An entitlement is something people are required to give you.  Health care falls into the latter category.

As for whether an entitlement to health care exists, I don't know.  The one thing I do know is that the less medical service itself is tangled up in the government, the more efficient it will be.  If there is an entitlement to health granted, it damn well better be accompanied by restrictions on what it covers so that people don't clog up emergency rooms for trivial injuries.

Perhaps an entitlement to health care makes sense in the case of life-threatening or debilitating diseases, but not in terms of everyday maladies, for which you'd either have to pay extra out of pocket to be insured, or for which you could forgo medical insurance.

The biggest problem is that you can only fund it by taking away money from the people who don't need gov't paying for their health care, so it is very much a glorified Robin Hood scheme in that sense.  And that makes me very uncomfortable.


Posted By: InvisibleUnicorns
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 11:32
Also, http://www.theonion.com/content/video/study_most_children_strongly - this video simply must be posted in this thread.  Watch it if you could use a few laughs.


Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 11:47
Originally posted by InvisibleUnicorns InvisibleUnicorns wrote:

I mentioned this in the atheist bus campaign thread, but it's worth saying again here: some things make no sense as rights, health care being one of them.

It makes sense to talk about whether everyone is entitled to health care, but a right is something you already have (without being given it, you just have it simply for existing) and which can't be taken away.  An entitlement is something people are required to give you.  Health care falls into the latter category.  [Fair distinction and agreed]

As for whether an entitlement to health care exists, I don't know.  The one thing I do know is that the less medical service itself is tangled up in the government, the more efficient it will be.  [In the States, the Gov run VA health-care system actually led a few years back in improvements and showed great reforms.  I think we have to be careful with proclaiming that Gov has no ability to improve anything.] If there is an entitlement to health granted, it damn well better be accompanied by restrictions on what it covers so that people don't clog up emergency rooms for trivial injuries.

Perhaps an entitlement to health care makes sense in the case of life-threatening or debilitating diseases, but not in terms of everyday maladies, for which you'd either have to pay extra out of pocket to be insured, or for which you could forgo medical insurance.

The biggest problem is that you can only fund it by taking away money from the people who don't need gov't paying for their health care, so it is very much a glorified Robin Hood scheme in that sense.  And that makes me very uncomfortable.  [I'm not opposed to progressive taxation-but I understand many are-thing is we are doing it now by sending people to the ER for basic healthcare....we all pay for that expensive mis-use.]


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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"


Posted By: InvisibleUnicorns
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 11:52
If we let hospitals decide what injuries to treat in the ER (within certain bounds), we could eliminate that mis-use, I think.

Part of the problem I have with progressive taxation (though I don't have a firm stance on the issue either way) is that it marginalizes the property rights of a specific group of people.

Do you have sources for the gov't run health-care system you mentioned?  I'd like to read more about it.


Also, just in case anybody wants them, the only things I'd say people inherently have that can be considered rights are:

life
liberty
property (assuming you own your body, which makes sense)

You could also argue that people have a right to their identity, though that raises some really sticky issues that would derail this thread, which I'd prefer not to do.  If you want to address this further, either PM me or start a new thread and I'd be happy to chat about it.


Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 11:56
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

I'd like to direct this at UK citizens:  what is the current state of medical malpractice in Britain? Can you sue physicians, hospitals, etc. (are physicians considered "government" employees?)


Medical suits are certainly not the norm here, neither are they unheard of - I think the difference is (and forgive me if this is a gross generalisation) the UK does not have a litigious/compensation culture (despite the efforts of various spurious legal practices a few years ago, it just didn't really catch on); on occasion a case may hit the headlines, but it's certainly not that common.

As Blacksword says, it's east to complain about the NHS and yes, it does have its faults, but in 99.999% (recurring) of cases it is a system which works; it's bloody expensive to the tax-payer, but anything worth having is, surely - I for one think a health service free to all at the point of use is worth paying for.

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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012


Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 11:57
Havent read the whole thread yet... but...


I have no idea where you're hearing that we hate our health care. Quite frankly, when i went down to the states last I was paranoid of any kind of damage that I might sustain because I'd have to wait to get back to Cananda to remedy it. In Canada there's no massive taxation of any kind, for the most part you know that you're going to be just fine - I don't like the thought of "we can operate and fix you, IF you have enough money, if you don't then we'll just have to amputate" (Yes, I've watched "Sicko"). Actually, this is the main point which will prevent me from ever moving to the states - seriously. The thought of having to pay for your own well being is actually quite scarey - in Canada you never hear the horror stories of your insurance company having to approve of an operation which will end your life if you can't have it.


Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 12:03
I would never even consider a shift to the US system. But we have a completely different taxation culture here. 


Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 12:03
Mike...I hear you hate your health care on conservative talk radio, which I listen to balance my exposure because I'm told the mainstream media is liberal propaganda. Wink

Unicorn....It was a television documentary about the VA, I don't remember exactly where it was....I will try to find a link. 



And to ALL:  I want to thank you all for showing that we can have a dignified conversation about something controversial, without having it blow up into arguments.  I really appreciate that and hope it continues.  As I said, I'm here to learn about whether nationalized health care works and I want to hear it from actual people who live there, not from media.  These replies are exactly what I seek as someone wanting to learn.  Clap


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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"


Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 12:06
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Mike...I hear you hate your health care on conservative talk radio, which I listen to balance my exposure because I'm told the mainstream media is liberal propaganda. Wink


LOL I can hear it now...

"The Canadians don't know what they're talking about! They all smoke too much of the medicinal and all the brain operations that they all got for free is messing with the way they think! Canada doesn't like not having to worry about health care - so we shouldn't envy them! Keep paying your massive bills and don't move to Canada!"

Wink


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 12:13
It seems per the terms of the post that launched this thread I am not permitted to discuss my healthcare experience as a US cititizen so that's all I'm going to say...

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 12:15
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

It seems per the terms of the post that launched this thread I am not permitted to discuss my healthcare experience as a US cititizen so that's all I'm going to say...



Brian, the intent here was to hear the opinions of people actually *using* government health-care and I do wish that to be the case.

But hey man, no one is stopping you from starting the counter thread to discuss you American experience!!!  Have at it, no one is trying to *muzzle* you.  Wink


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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"


Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 12:18

Disclaimer, I'm breaking the rules of the Original Poster since I'm American, but I also have more experience on this subject than most.

In America, there is no question that money will buy you better health care.

Our health care system does what is designed to do perfectally, create profits for the service providers. It's a huge pot of money and many many groups have been cutting up the pie and then blame each other when they feel someone is eating too much. This includes the doctors (which includes me), along with the usually demonized lawyers, insurance plans, pharmaceutical companies, diagnostics (lab and xray) providers, and medical equipment providers. 
 
Insurance is already socialism....we give some accountants our money in a big pot and they distribute it to who needs it based on some rules. They are supposed to get to use some of that money to make investments and then they get the interest off the investments.
 
No one in the entire world actually believes the Amercian system is a good one. The only ones who say so are the ones who are making profits from it or their political allies.
 
The very valid question you've raised is whether other countries system is better, and if so, is it enough better to adopt. But the ending statement "perhaps we should keep what we have' made me shudder so much I had to comment.
 
BTW, Obama's plan is weak, really weak. We need better and he and his staff knows it. Their just playing political cards that they think will actually make it through without being trumped.
 
 


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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.


Posted By: InvisibleUnicorns
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 12:24
While I can see the resemblance between insurance and socialism, there's a key difference: namely, that most insurance is opt-in (car insurance isn't, of course, at least in the U.S.), whereas government is not an opt-in proposal.

That would be the key reason why people who dislike socialism are fine with voluntary insurance.


Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 12:44
Health insurance is not opt-in in America. If you don't have it or extremely wealthy, you cannot afford standard of care for anything other than minimal care.

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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 12:48
In the UK the bottom line is if it's minor go private, if it's major stick with the NHS. The private hospitals simply do not have the staff and resources at their disposal, nor will they ever because everything is controlled by accountants for the benefit of the shareholders.
 
Andy and Jim are correct in we like complaining and will moan about the slightest thing, yet we never cheer when something goes right - the NHS system works and works well.


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What?


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 12:55
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

It seems per the terms of the post that launched this thread I am not permitted to discuss my healthcare experience as a US cititizen so that's all I'm going to say...



Brian, the intent here was to hear the opinions of people actually *using* government health-care and I do wish that to be the case.

But hey man, no one is stopping you from starting the counter thread to discuss you American experience!!!  Have at it, no one is trying to *muzzle* you.  Wink


Just a little manufactured outrage,  you probably don't really want me to get started on the subject.


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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 13:03
Originally posted by InvisibleUnicorns InvisibleUnicorns wrote:

If we let hospitals decide what injuries to treat in the ER (within certain bounds), we could eliminate that mis-use, I think.

Part of the problem I have with progressive taxation (though I don't have a firm stance on the issue either way) is that it marginalizes the property rights of a specific group of people.

Do you have sources for the gov't run health-care system you mentioned? 
I'd like to read more about it.


Also, just in case anybody wants them, the only things I'd say people inherently have that can be considered rights are:

life
liberty
property (assuming you own your body, which makes sense)

You could also argue that people have a right to their identity, though that raises some really sticky issues that would derail this thread, which I'd prefer not to do.  If you want to address this further, either PM me or start a new thread and I'd be happy to chat about it.



Unicorns.....I couldn't find the program I watched, which I believe was a television documentary, likely PBS.  But here's links to two items which cover some of what I watched in that show.  One is a mag article and one a book excerpt....I'm sure both writers could be debated as with anything else, but I thought it interesting that such examples are rarely discussed in our current debate. 

http://www.governmentleader.com/issues/1_10/features/240-1.html - http://www.governmentleader.com/issues/1_10/features/240-1.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=Pe9-adfujDgC&dq=va+health+care+success&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=JMzHSZjtH4zmnQe-8IzjDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=13&ct=result#PPP1,M1 - http://books.google.com/books?id=Pe9-adfujDgC&dq=va+health+care+success&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=JMzHSZjtH4zmnQe-8IzjDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=13&ct=result#PPP1,M1


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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"


Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 13:09
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

In the UK the bottom line is if it's minor go private, if it's major stick with the NHS. The private hospitals simply do not have the staff and resources at their disposal, nor will they ever because everything is controlled by accountants for the benefit of the shareholders.
 


Exactly. When my mom was diagnosed with two forms of cancer (both perfectly treatable, or so she was told) at the end of 2002, she was told by friends and relatives who were in the medical profession to avoid any private clinics, which just don't have the right equipment for those cases. Unfortunately, in Italy (like elsewhere) there is this misconception that private is always better, since you get what you pay for - and this is what caused two acquaintances of mine at least to lose their lives because of wrong diagnoses and/or treatments.

As to people going to the doctor (or even to hospital) for minor ailments, this happens in Italy too. Especially elderly people spend way too much time at the doctor's, and way too much money in medication that is all too often useless (not to mention potentially harmful). I don't think, however, this is a good reason for keeping millions of people without any kind of coverage, or letting most of the population live in fear of losing everything in the event of a life-threatening illness. Not to mention that most insurance companies limit the kind of coverage they offer with people with previous conditions - adding insult to injury, for the way I see things.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 13:36
^ as in all "insurance" based systems it is the healthy who pays for the treatment of the sick - even with high premiums for high-risk contributors, (assuming they are not refused cover), what they take out still exceeds what they put in, however at least in a National Insurance system you cannot be refused cover.

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What?


Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 14:36
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

^ as in all "insurance" based systems it is the healthy who pays for the treatment of the sick - even with high premiums for high-risk contributors, (assuming they are not refused cover), what they take out still exceeds what they put in, however at least in a National Insurance system you cannot be refused cover.
 
Exactly, whether we call it insurance or socialism or whatever, health care in the modern world requires redistribution of resources. If the US populace could get over their fantasy about "free" markets (biggest joke in history) and the socialist boogeyman, this whole planet would be better for it.


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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.


Posted By: InvisibleUnicorns
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 15:33
Thank you Finnforest, I will check those links out.

Raff, two things to consider:

1) if NHS didn't exist, private hospitals would likely be better.  While you make a good point that, where NHS exists, it is probably better to stick to public hospitals, that is not necessarily an indictment of private hospitals on the whole.

2) one potential solution is to have NHS cover only certain types of illnesses, such that people have to pay out of pocket for unnecessary and/or minor visits.  In that case, you keep everyone insured where it matters without having to cover people who are either misinformed, paranoid about their health, or looking for a free ride.


Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 15:56
Negoba, I'm very curious about your concerns with the Obama proposals.  Can you expand a bit more on what worries you about his "fix" (or lack of fix)....?   I am disappointed that he is apparently not considering "single-payer" and would appreciate an informed opinion on what he *is* considering.

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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"


Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 16:27
Originally posted by InvisibleUnicorns InvisibleUnicorns wrote:

Thank you Finnforest, I will check those links out.

Raff, two things to consider:

1) if NHS didn't exist, private hospitals would likely be better.  While you make a good point that, where NHS exists, it is probably better to stick to public hospitals, that is not necessarily an indictment of private hospitals on the whole.

2) one potential solution is to have NHS cover only certain types of illnesses, such that people have to pay out of pocket for unnecessary and/or minor visits.  In that case, you keep everyone insured where it matters without having to cover people who are either misinformed, paranoid about their health, or looking for a free ride.


Personally, I don't believe something like healthcare should become a way for people to make money. There are lots of other ways to get rich in this world. If that makes me a socialist, so be it. I've seen far too many people sicken and die in the past few years to even want to think about being plagued with hospital bills when fighting for one's life.

That said, you might be right about those who are misinformed, paranoid, or whatever... But tell me one thing: who decides what is minor or unnecessary, and what is not? And what about the costs of those 'minor' visits? In a real free-market economy, I could charge $ 500 just for a simple, routine visit, and no one would be able to stop me.


Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 16:31
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Negoba, I'm very curious about your concerns with the Obama proposals.  Can you expand a bit more on what worries you about his "fix" (or lack of fix)....?   I am disappointed that he is apparently not considering "single-payer" and would appreciate an informed opinion on what he *is* considering.
 
My biggest problem is that the Obama plan is still an insurance-based system. It puts a fundamental error into the system and an extra layer of bureacracy from the beginning. We don't need better insurance coverage. We need a health care system for our society. Insurance is for eventualities. The need for health care is a certainty. While you might argue that a healthy male between 18-50 might get away with insurance, everyone else has clearly defined ongoing healthcare needs.
 
The second is litigation. It's a joke. Some states have actually made reasonable attempts to contain this excuse for insurers and lawyers to line each other's pockets, but in others it's terrible. Right along with this is doctors either being paid to order tests (fee-for-service) or not order tests (managed care) rather than take care of patients. While the idea of pay for performance is a nice idea, the measures used right now usually address efficiency (which is just a nice way of saying limiting costs) rather than quality indicators.
 
Unfortunately, the real solution means taking money away from alot of rich people, which is akin to taking a steak out of a bear's mouth. Even Obama (who in general I support) is working very hard to stay away from the teeth. 
 
BTW, I'll save people the google time if they care. I'm a Family Doc in a Community Health Clinic.


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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.


Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 17:33

I'm Canadian, so i too benefit from our system of universal coverage. My mother was also a nurse, and my wife is a nurse. I also worked 15 years in Canadian hospitals, including 10 years in downtown Toronto.

 

I am pleased with our system, overall, although as with health care in many Western nations with aging populations and declining government funding, our system has been under stress for some time, with too few nurses and doctors (both of which often move to the US for higher-paying full time jobs with lucrative signing bonuses, etc), too many part-time staff, longer waiting times, etc.

 
That being said, the system still takes care of our needs, and it seems to be getting better -- the quality and timely availability of health care is always a MAJOR election issue with Canadians. It is one of our defining traits, and not something we would willingly give up, or see seriously weakened (as various governments have learned).
 
I would never want a US-style "pay as you go", or "buy extra insurance" system here, nor would the vast majority of Canadians. Canadians get scared when traveling to the US -- we know that an uncovered accident or illness there could easily bankrupt us. (We buy extra insurance for US trips, if we are smart.)
 
Our universal health coverage is a major factor in our high quality of life index in Canada, and as far as I know, we don't pay much more tax, proportionally speaking, than Americans do. Job for job, we tend to make more money (and then pay more of that in taxes).
 
Canadians expect government services like health care (plus roads, schools, etc) for their tax dollars, and overall, we expect to pay taxes for those services. Our culture is much more about the collective good, rather than individual freedoms, as well -- Canadians are much more socialistic in outlook than the average American. Our system is a natural fit for us, as it is in various Scandinavian countries (where they really pay a lot of tax, especially for luxuries).
 
We also pay more for gasoline and luxuries here than you do (booze, tobacco) and a large part of those costs is tax, which helps pay for our government services (health care is the largest cost by far). Alcohol sales here, for example, are government owned, and taxed accordingly. More expensive than for Americans, but still, nowhere near as expensive as in countries such as Iceland and Norway.
 
In closing, our system is not perfect, but it takes care of us, and it is a natural fit for our culture and mindset as Canadians. We are not afraid of a bit of socialism -- indeed, we embrace it, and the word is not a 'bad' word here, as it was in your recent US election. Smile


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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.


Posted By: InvisibleUnicorns
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 18:40
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Personally, I don't believe something like healthcare should become a way for people to make money.


What are the defining qualities that make one way of making money legitimate and another illegitimate?

Quote That said, you might be right about those who are misinformed, paranoid, or whatever... But tell me one thing: who decides what is minor or unnecessary, and what is not?


I trust in the ability of a gov't assembling such a policy to find a team of impartial doctors to decide such cases.

Quote And what about the costs of those 'minor' visits? In a real free-market economy, I could charge $ 500 just for a simple, routine visit, and no one would be able to stop me.


You could only charge that if people were willing to pay that much.  You would lose the business of people unwilling to pay that much for a routine visit, all of which would go to hospitals/doctors charging a more reasonable price (and this is probably the vast majority of your potential market).  So yes, you could charge that much, but it would almost certainly be a stupid business decision.


Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 18:45
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Negoba, I'm very curious about your concerns with the Obama proposals.  Can you expand a bit more on what worries you about his "fix" (or lack of fix)....?   I am disappointed that he is apparently not considering "single-payer" and would appreciate an informed opinion on what he *is* considering.
 
My biggest problem is that the Obama plan is still an insurance-based system. It puts a fundamental error into the system and an extra layer of bureacracy from the beginning. We don't need better insurance coverage. We need a health care system for our society. Insurance is for eventualities. The need for health care is a certainty. While you might argue that a healthy male between 18-50 might get away with insurance, everyone else has clearly defined ongoing healthcare needs.
 
The second is litigation. It's a joke. Some states have actually made reasonable attempts to contain this excuse for insurers and lawyers to line each other's pockets, but in others it's terrible. Right along with this is doctors either being paid to order tests (fee-for-service) or not order tests (managed care) rather than take care of patients. While the idea of pay for performance is a nice idea, the measures used right now usually address efficiency (which is just a nice way of saying limiting costs) rather than quality indicators.
 
Unfortunately, the real solution means taking money away from alot of rich people, which is akin to taking a steak out of a bear's mouth. Even Obama (who in general I support) is working very hard to stay away from the teeth. 
 
BTW, I'll save people the google time if they care. I'm a Family Doc in a Community Health Clinic.



Thank you, that's awesome.  Do you think there is any chance his team may realize this and improve things?  Or do you think they are going to make it worse by putting out a system that gives employers an incentive to drop subsidized plans?


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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"


Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 20:12
As a Canadian who wishes that my governments would install a health care deduction on salaries, with the unemployed (includes stay at home moms/dads, students, disabled etc) covered by the system; with the entire amount spent on Universal health care ... here is my suggestion
Check out this PBS website on a show that aired last summer.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/
"Nuff Said.


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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.


Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 20:34
Originally posted by InvisibleUnicorns InvisibleUnicorns wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Personally, I don't believe something like healthcare should become a way for people to make money.


What are the defining qualities that make one way of making money legitimate and another illegitimate?
 
Maybe the fact that we're talking about SAVING LIFES here? Of course doctors have to make money like everybody else, they actually study 2398209 years to be doctors... BUT IT'S NOT THEM WHO REALLY MAKE HEALTHCARE SO PROHIBITLY EXPENSIVE IN AMERICA... IS THE INSURANCE COMPANIES.... They're the ones making the real money... while denying people with pre-existing conditions any coverage... The system here is REPULSIVE. To any human, that is.


 
My sister was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2000. I thank nature or whomever that she lives in Germany. Not only was she taken care of and received TOP treatment, she was treaten as a human being, not as a number, she was given spas for recovery, the doctors and the system really made sure that she recovered perfectly. And she did.
 
In the repulsive money-based system in the US she would be GONE. Or she would be here and all my family would have debts that it would take our entire lifetime to pay back.
 
Is quite repulsive, again, that the richest nation on earth, the one that prioduces and consumes the most amount of sh*t, is the only industrialized one in the world with no universal heath care system.
 
But it all comes to the ME ME ME mentality of americans.... the only thing I will never like of my adoptive country.
 
EDIT: I remember every time my sister comes to visit, she's baffled when she sees commercial ads on tv for doctors.... commercial ads... Immediately followed by ads like "sleeping only on the right side of the bed? You may suffer from rightsiditis syndrome - TRY Moonesta by Pfeizer! Please ask your doctor about it!"........ Yes.... here they encourage you to go ask the doctor for medicine... here is all a business....
 
A repulsive business, that is.....
 


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Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 03:37
Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:

I am pleased with our system, overall, although as with health care in many Western nations with aging populations and declining government funding, our system has been under stress for some time, with too few nurses and doctors, too many part-time staff, longer waiting times, etc.

That being said, the system still takes care of our needs, and it seems to be getting better

Our system is not perfect, but it takes care of us


All of the above (edited from Peter's original post) can be said of the British NHS; it's the only system I've ever lived under and I honestly believe it's the best system I've heard of - however, as Dean says, minor procedures tend to have very long waiting lists on the NHS, so for these, paying for private treatment is probably the best option.

Sometimes though this part NHS/part private could have consequences - for example, if you were diagnosed with a condition necessitating the use of a hugely expensive drug the NHS authority did not sanction due to cost, you can go private solely to pay for the drug yourself, but the NHS may then refuse to treat you, as you are then deemed to be a private patient (even though the only part you're paying for is the drug in question) - I believe this policy is under review & may now be a thing of the past... I sincerely hope so.

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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012


Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 04:39
Originally posted by InvisibleUnicorns InvisibleUnicorns wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Personally, I don't believe something like healthcare should become a way for people to make money.


What are the defining qualities that make one way of making money legitimate and another illegitimate?



Yeah, gotta +1 Invisible Unicorn there Raff.

Remember Raff, in the eyes of the money making machines we call corporations, you're not an individual human being with their own personality and genes, but you're just like everything who is handed a number, just another commodity.
If you're just another number in the system, what's the problem for paying for health care?Wink
Just the same as someone's gonna get paid for driving a bus, ain't it, people wanna make money, because it's dollars and digits, you're life is a "privilege and not a right" and health care is as legal and 'legit' as driving the bus.


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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 07:08
You know I have no problem with people making money off providing health care.  It's the private health insurance system that should be done away with.  The costs keep going up out of proportion to inflation.  Dr's spend way too much time dealing with all the different sets of paperwork. If I have to go to the emergency room, the deductible practically wipes out one of my paychecks.  And what's just more scary anyway, faceless corporate bureaucrats or faceless government  bureaucrats?  At least one of those types can be held accountable to the people.  If you cover everyone then the costs are spread out over the entire population and further savings will accrue by it being run in a non-profit fashion.  Socialized health care, no.  Socialized health insurance, yes.  But those who would stand to lose money always try to confuse the two.


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 07:20
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by InvisibleUnicorns InvisibleUnicorns wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Personally, I don't believe something like healthcare should become a way for people to make money.


What are the defining qualities that make one way of making money legitimate and another illegitimate?
 
Maybe the fact that we're talking about SAVING LIFES here? Of course doctors have to make money like everybody else, they actually study 2398209 years to be doctors... BUT IT'S NOT THEM WHO REALLY MAKE HEALTHCARE SO PROHIBITLY EXPENSIVE IN AMERICA... IS THE INSURANCE COMPANIES.... They're the ones making the real money... while denying people with pre-existing conditions any coverage... The system here is REPULSIVE. To any human, that is.


 
My sister was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2000. I thank nature or whomever that she lives in Germany. Not only was she taken care of and received TOP treatment, she was treaten as a human being, not as a number, she was given spas for recovery, the doctors and the system really made sure that she recovered perfectly. And she did.
 
In the repulsive money-based system in the US she would be GONE. Or she would be here and all my family would have debts that it would take our entire lifetime to pay back.
 
Is quite repulsive, again, that the richest nation on earth, the one that prioduces and consumes the most amount of sh*t, is the only industrialized one in the world with no universal heath care system.
 
But it all comes to the ME ME ME mentality of americans.... the only thing I will never like of my adoptive country.
 
EDIT: I remember every time my sister comes to visit, she's baffled when she sees commercial ads on tv for doctors.... commercial ads... Immediately followed by ads like "sleeping only on the right side of the bed? You may suffer from rightsiditis syndrome - TRY Moonesta by Pfeizer! Please ask your doctor about it!"........ Yes.... here they encourage you to go ask the doctor for medicine... here is all a business....
 
A repulsive business, that is.....
 


had no intentions to log in this morning.. but was just surfing while having the first cup of coffee...

but let me add one thing to what you said Teo...

*if Raff finally see the light and ditches my ass.... I'm yours... all yours*

you couldn't have hit the nail on the head any better on this issue... 

I am no socialist... but I agree with Raff... it IS repulsive that this 'free market mania' that grips this country... where everything is a commodity.. and everyone is a consumer is repulsive.. and makes me sick.  It's like I said with human rights... what makes the wacky world of human rights so wacky are the wackos that think human rights is a point of debate....  what makes this issue so repulsive in the eyes of so many is the fact that a basic need like quality health care is something to be bought... not provided.

It's like the debate of hurricane Katrina.... what else do we have a central government for... but to provide for it's citizens when they can not provide for themselves....  bah!!!.  


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 09:11

Right now in Washington, the biggest resistance to the Obama plan are private insurers, who feel they won't be able to compete with a public option. One Democrat stated that she didn't care about the financial viability of the insurers, she cared about getting Americans health care.

The Obama plan is an improvement on what we have now, and may be the first step towards a real health care solution in this country.
 
I'm sure the Obama team knows that their plan doesn't go far enough, but with Clinton in there with the sting of her debacle in 1993, they are being careful to try to produce something that will actually pass.
 
The American people are not ready for some of things that must be done, and will be done when resources truly do get tight. One of the biggest ones is limiting ICU care - perhaps one of the biggest expenditures on health care is for the severely ill during their last six months. But how do you ration that??? It's an ethical quagmire, but it has to be done.


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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.


Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 09:13
COming back to T's post - it seems that Germany has multiple private companies that run the health care system. Non-profit private corporations. The reason why any one company would try to do better than another - the more "clients/patients" you have, the bigger your company, therefore the bigger the salaries as you go up the chain of management.
How do you pay - there is a health care deduction on your pay stub, a set percentage. Those who are not in the paid workforce have their premiums covered by the government.
How does it work - each year or two, the various stakeholders get together and decide on a payment schedule for procedures / services / treatments / medications etc.
The surprising thing - the origins of German Universal health care - Bismarck ! That's right. Late 19th century militaristic society leads the way.
Other example - France - combination of private & public health care. How does it work - single payor - the government. How is the private / public component balanced - same as Germany - the fees are set, in this case by the government, and the service provider cannot charge the patient extra. Therefore, a private company can compete if they so wish.
Indeed, there have been some stories in the news recently where French citizens were complaining of some difficulties in getting doctors to make house calls.
Imagine.
Other success stories - Japan, Taiwan, Switzerland. The sticking point - political resistance to increasing health care premiums when costs rise.
For those who think the U.S. has an advantage there - HMOs are increasing theirs by a higher rate, often for less coverage. Add to that the 40 million Americans that have no insurance. You can't legally be "refused" treatment, but it happens. Often. Along with bankruptcies due to health care costs.
I wish Canada could look at adopting parts of the Europeen models. But we have too many people who would rather add a "private pay for services by those who can afford to pay" component to our system. None of them seem willing to think that this somehow would not contribute to political pressure from these "taxpayers" that would undermine funding for the public system.

And most of all , remember the two world wars - EVERYBODY GAVE THEIR ALL. This was not based on your income, your class or status. SO if any country would expect the ultimate sacrifice from all their sons & daughters in case of war, why would they not provide the ultimate support for all their citizens.
Not to mention the actual financial benefits that flow to business - lower health benefit costs. Healthier employees. Could this possibly actually probably increase productivity ?
Wanna bet that most Americans can't figure this one out ?


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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.


Posted By: progmetalhead
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 11:08
Wow! Shocked
 
Having just read all this I count myself very lucky to be English!
 
Even luckier that I am also in BUPA (private medical insurance which is paid by my company) so I can indeed do exactly what Dean and Jim have said. This also applies to my children should the need ever occur.
 
 


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http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112

Colt - Admin Team MMA



Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 11:10
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

And what's just more scary anyway, faceless corporate bureaucrats or faceless government  bureaucrats?  At least one of those types can be held accountable to the people.


LOL  Ah, thank you, I needed a big laugh.


Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 11:14
Originally posted by progmetalhead progmetalhead wrote:

Even luckier that I am also in BUPA (private medical insurance which is paid by my company) so I can indeed do exactly what Dean and Jim have said


I may have said it but I can't do it - our cats have private medical insurance, but my wife and I don't

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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 11:23
Consider also (just looked this up), our (USA) national health expenditures come to almost $8000 per capita (mix of private insurance and Medicare/Medicaid), whereas in England it's about $2600 per capita (using figures that NHS England has as 2008-09 budget of 92.5bn GBP and England has a population (2007) of 51 million people).  Clearly the #1 issue when formulating a single-payer national health system in this country is cost containment.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 11:47
Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Originally posted by progmetalhead progmetalhead wrote:

Even luckier that I am also in BUPA (private medical insurance which is paid by my company) so I can indeed do exactly what Dean and Jim have said


I may have said it but I can't do it - our cats have private medical insurance, but my wife and I don't
Although BUPA is private - it is also non-profit making, with all net-coming reinvested.
 
Our company provided BUPA, but I refused it and since I've never needed to use it, over the past 25 years I've "saved" the company 10s of thousands of pounds. Ermm 
 


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What?


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 11:57
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Our company provided BUPA, but I refused it and since I've never needed to use it, over the past 25 years I've "saved" the company 10s of thousands of pounds. Ermm 
 


My wife's company actually gives her extra money per paycheck because she's refused their health insurance (my whole family is covered under mine).


Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 11:59
Ok, this thread has been awesome to me, giving me some first hand insights into what users of socialized medicine feel about their system.  That is what I wanted.  By the results of this small, anecdotal little survey,
 
a) those who answered more so than not approve of their "socialized medicine"
and
b) would not choose to switch to an American private insurance model. 
 
 
Now that I have learned what I wanted to, I remove the original post restriction and invite everyone to participate or debate. 
 
Private Insurance vs. Single-payer national health.....debate whatever you wish. 
 
I only ask that everyone continue to be respectful of each other. 
 
 
Thanks to all who participated...very interesting


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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 12:05
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Private Insurance vs. Single-payer national health....


Well, nothing beats National Health.  Big smile


Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 12:10
I also thank Finnforest for his references to the VA. I think it's a great example of a health care system rather than an insurance. It got me thinking, what if everyone could go to the VA, or specifically what if the county hospitals still were that...public entities that took care of those who couldn't pay. In both cases, teaching was and is a huge part of the exchange. Unfortunately, the funding got stripped and many of those county hospitals got bought by for-profits. I need to look further into the history of how that happened.
 
 


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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 12:53
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

And what's just more scary anyway, faceless corporate bureaucrats or faceless government  bureaucrats?  At least one of those types can be held accountable to the people.


LOL  Ah, thank you, I needed a big laugh.


Hey now, the operative word there was "can", and I did use it on purpose. Big smile

Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Private Insurance vs. Single-payer national health....


Well, nothing beats National Health.  Big smile


Yes but will it make you feel much better than you could know, no for that you need Songs From The Wood. Wink


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:52


Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 17:46
Why pray to God to cure you ? Couldn't she have stopped it in the first place ? And if he's omniscient (like Ziltoid), why the need to inform or to ask ? If illness is deserved or brought upon one's self, explain why Mother Teresa died and not Dick Cheney ? Or rather why it wasn't Dick's hunting partner that shot Dick instead of vice versa ?
P.S. I am a Christian. Just not your type of Christian (to paraphrase an old Dave Mustaine lyric)


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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.


Posted By: visitor2035
Date Posted: April 01 2009 at 17:44
Firstly...the NHS is overloaded with beaurocrats and managers is not because of Labour, but had become heavily subsided due to the Tories, who wanted more friends in the system.....at least get your facts right Blacksword.

The NHS in the UK is probably pound for pound (even if it is free) the best health care in the world. As for being in BUPA...god almighty....guess where the surgeons and anaesthetists come from....oh yes the NHS. Private treatment in the UK is only as good as the NHS itself..you only get quicker treatment...but who wants to pay for the same health treatment twice?

However...if Cameron and his goons get in be prepared for health insurance to rear it's ugly head, regardless what thay may say, white tory speaks with forked tongue.....or something similar.

Private health care will always produce a two tier health system, with the richer being able to afford better services...i think the system in the US already proves this.


Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: April 01 2009 at 20:15
Originally posted by visitor2035 visitor2035 wrote:

Firstly...the NHS is overloaded with beaurocrats and managers is not because of Labour, but had become heavily subsided due to the Tories, who wanted more friends in the system.....at least get your facts right Blacksword.


What exactly are you referring to, and did you see it in the Daily Mirror?


Posted By: visitor2035
Date Posted: April 02 2009 at 20:54
I have worked in the NHS since 1994...and i do have facts to back up my statement that the Tory's did overload the NHS with Tory friendly managers...so go and find out facts before you suggest i'm a liar.

Hence the reason why the NHS has so many managers...i give you the useless Tories.

Too much ass kissing on here.


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 11:23

“[Canada and Great Britain] don’t have the appreciation of life, as we do in our society, evidently. A lot of people are gonna die. This ‘government option’ that’s being touted as this panacea — the savior of allowing people to have quality health care at an affordable price — is gonna kill people.”

— Congressman Paul Broun, in a July 10 http://mediamattersaction.org/blog/200907100007 - statement on the floor of the House

Any comments from our Canadian or British friends on this one? LOL



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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 11:38
Forgive for not reading through the 3 pages of comments, in fact Ive never seen this thread before.

But how our friends in Canada and England feel about their systems?
I've heard the one in England is poorly run and terrible OR that you can walk in, wait some time and get fine service.

But I suppose 2 opinions are not enough.
I've also heard the health care system in England has been becoming unsustainable, especially now


Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 13:39
I'm torn. On the one hand, I hate the idea of medical profiteering, which sadly, occurs quite regularly. On the other hand, the inefficiency of making it one big thing controlled by politicians scares me and makes me think that while things might get better for the underclass, the overall median point of health care will be dragged way down.

I agree though, that if NHS is to happen, I sure hope it looks nothing like Obama's current plan. Having to show proof of health insurance to police=fail.

I honestly think they primary issue is to address first the failures in the current machinations that are driving costs higher, then if necessary, transition to nationalized healthcare.


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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 18:46
^^^ I'll still maintain the answer is the elimination of private health insurance or at least a decent minimal standard of hassle free care.  Then if the wealthy want to buy into a "Cadillac" plan, whatever the hell that means, allow it.  Those who have put themselves in the way of meaningful reform, have to ignore all the successes of government run Medicare and VA care and deal in lies and distortions.

VA Outranks Private Sector in Health Care Patient Satisfaction

By Donna Miles
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, Jan. 20, 2006 – Veterans continued to rate the care they receive through the Department of Veterans Affairs health care system higher than other Americans rate private-sector health care for the sixth consecutive year, a new annual report on customer satisfaction reveals.
Read more: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=14560 - http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=14560

Medicare versus insurers

I notice from comments that a fair number of readers think that Medicare has had runaway costs. What you need to ask is, runaway compared to what?

Here’s the raw fact, from the http://www.cms.hhs.gov/NationalHealthExpendData/downloads/tables.pdf - National Health Expenditure data : since 1970 Medicare costs per beneficiary have risen at an annual rate of 8.8% — but insurance premiums have risen at an annual rate of 9.9%. The rise in Medicare costs is just part of the overall rise in health care spending. And in fact Medicare spending has lagged private spending: if insurance premiums had risen “only” as much as Medicare spending, they’d be 1/3 lower than they are.

We don’t have a Medicare problem — we have a health care problem.
Read more: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/29/medicare-versus-insurers/ - http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/29/medicare-versus-insurers/



'Scuse me, brace yourself for health care political cartoon flood: Tongue


There, that wasn't so bad.  Well, the last one wasn't really funny, but quite on target.

$1,400,000.00 per day is currently being spent to defeat any public option.  Guess who's getting the money?  Hint hint...




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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 20:46
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


VA Outranks Private Sector in Health Care Patient Satisfaction

By Donna Miles
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, Jan. 20, 2006 – Veterans continued to rate the care they receive through the Department of Veterans Affairs health care system higher than other Americans rate private-sector health care for the sixth consecutive year, a new annual report on customer satisfaction reveals.
Read more: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=14560 - http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=14560


This goes in the face of every VA hospital me or my extended family/friends has had the displeasure of being in. They're a pathetic joke. I have to think that's just the over patriotism of the military inflating those figures. I remember we had one out in Temple TX that hadn't been renovated since the early 50s.


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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 21:05
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Forgive for not reading through the 3 pages of comments, in fact Ive never seen this thread before.

But how our friends in Canada and England feel about their systems?
I've heard the one in England is poorly run and terrible OR that you can walk in, wait some time and get fine service.

But I suppose 2 opinions are not enough.
I've also heard the health care system in England has been becoming unsustainable, especially now


I've generally heard good things about the NHS (living in the UK), though I've never been seriously hospitalised since about age 4 or something like that. Yes, it has problems, I'm sure... though I have to suspect the same problems (postcode lottery, mistakes, contaminations) would instead just be disguised, veiled, underplayed or left to the mostly unaccountable in a private healthcare system.


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 21:09
I'm opposed to health care.

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https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 21:30
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

^^^ I'll still maintain the answer is the elimination of private health insurance


And I maintain if you take away most people's health plans there will be riots in the f**king streets.

Try again.


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 21:32
Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


VA Outranks Private Sector in Health Care Patient Satisfaction

By Donna Miles
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, Jan. 20, 2006 – Veterans continued to rate the care they receive through the Department of Veterans Affairs health care system higher than other Americans rate private-sector health care for the sixth consecutive year, a new annual report on customer satisfaction reveals.
Read more: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=14560 - http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=14560


This goes in the face of every VA hospital me or my extended family/friends has had the displeasure of being in. They're a pathetic joke. I have to think that's just the over patriotism of the military inflating those figures. I remember we had one out in Temple TX that hadn't been renovated since the early 50s.

Care to elaborate?  You think all of your family and friends who are taken care of by VA hospitals hate that, well  I'm sure you'd all prefer to be bankrupted by private health insurance.  We need a unified solution of the people by the people and for the benefit of all of the people.


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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 22:10
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I'm opposed to health care.

I know what you meant, but that phrase is pretty funny.


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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 22:12
Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I'm opposed to health care.

I know what you meant, but that phrase is pretty funny.


No, Rob is literally opposed to health care.  Just sit home and suck it up.


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 22:20
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I'm opposed to health care.

I know what you meant, but that phrase is pretty funny.


No, Rob is literally opposed to health care.  Just sit home and suck it up.


I sit home and drink 15 beers a day man.  I was making a joke I hope people would misinterpret because it's funny.

I like being funny.

A laugh a day keeps the politicians away.


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https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays


Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 22:26
I found it pretty funny Rob!
You know I got a sense of humor, I'm always cracking jokes no one gets/gets pissed at me for!
Although deep down inside I thought maybe you really do hate ALL healthcare...since that makes us weak.

Bee stings and leeches are all we need these days!


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 22:36
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I found it pretty funny Rob!
You know I got a sense of humor, I'm always cracking jokes no one gets/gets pissed at me for!
Although deep down inside I thought maybe you really do hate ALL healthcare...since that makes us weak.

Bee stings and leeches are all we need these days!


I will be needing a liver transplant in 2032.

I expect you to be there for me.

Emperor Obama will see to your cooperation.


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https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays


Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 22:37
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I found it pretty funny Rob!
You know I got a sense of humor, I'm always cracking jokes no one gets/gets pissed at me for!
Although deep down inside I thought maybe you really do hate ALL healthcare...since that makes us weak.

Bee stings and leeches are all we need these days!


I will be needing a liver transplant in 2032.

I expect you to be there for me.

Emperor Obama will see to your cooperation.


If Obama is still President in 2032, (and I'm thinking he will be!) then I will be there for you buddy.
Of course, he might just bust into my house, cut me open and take the liver....either way.
I'm there for ya!


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 22:46
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I found it pretty funny Rob!
You know I got a sense of humor, I'm always cracking jokes no one gets/gets pissed at me for!
Although deep down inside I thought maybe you really do hate ALL healthcare...since that makes us weak.

Bee stings and leeches are all we need these days!


I will be needing a liver transplant in 2032.

I expect you to be there for me.

Emperor Obama will see to your cooperation.


If Obama is still President in 2032, (and I'm thinking he will be!) then I will be there for you buddy.
Of course, he might just bust into my house, cut me open and take the liver....either way.
I'm there for ya!


That's a good thought, so long as starving orphans aren't gnawing on it first. 


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https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays


Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 22:54
One condition though.
You get my liver then, but I want you to get me a good right kidney. I don't care from who, but makes sure it's good. Mine keeps shooting out stones.
Promise me that and I have a liver waiting for you.

See who needs healthcare!? We can just operate it using the free market!
LOL


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 23:10
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

One condition though.
You get my liver then, but I want you to get me a good right kidney. I don't care from who, but makes sure it's good. Mine keeps shooting out stones.
Promise me that and I have a liver waiting for you.

See who needs healthcare!? We can just operate it using the free market!
LOL


f**k you.  My kidneys are mine.

I'll pay you ten bucks, tops. 


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https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays


Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 23:16
I said I don't care from who.


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 23:48
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I said I don't care from who.


*loads shotgun...paranoidly waits for Obama's Kidneymen*


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https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays


Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 23:51
Didn't know Obama has his own kidneymen!
It really is good to be the Prez


Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: August 03 2009 at 23:56
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I found it pretty funny Rob!
You know I got a sense of humor, I'm always cracking jokes no one gets/gets pissed at me for!
Although deep down inside I thought maybe you really do hate ALL healthcare...since that makes us weak.

Bee stings and leeches are all we need these days!


I will be needing a liver transplant in 2032.

I expect you to be there for me.

Emperor Obama will see to your cooperation.


If Obama is still President in 2032, (and I'm thinking he will be!) then I will be there for you buddy.
Of course, he might just bust into my house, cut me open and take the liver....either way.
I'm there for ya!

If you can't stop a 70 year old man from cutting your liver out then you probably won't need your liver for much longer anyway. LOL (Obama is 47, 2032 is 23 years away, so 47 + 23 = 70)


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 04 2009 at 06:57
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


A laugh a day keeps the politicians away.

And if that doesn't work, maybe a shotgun or something. Tongue


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 08 2009 at 11:59



Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 12 2009 at 12:19
This Modern World By Tom Tomorrow
cartoon: comic about right-wing health care scare campaigns


Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 12 2009 at 12:48
"Death panels".... are there any limit to the STUPIDITY of people????????
 
 


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Posted By: Neil
Date Posted: August 12 2009 at 16:31
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

"Death panels".... are there any limit to the STUPIDITY of people????????
 
 
Thus far in my experience, no.


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When people get lost in thought it's often because it's unfamiliar territory.


Posted By: ClemofNazareth
Date Posted: August 12 2009 at 17:28

I completed an MBA in healthcare administration a few months ago, and work in the healthcare systems industry (I only mention this to indicate that hopefully my thoughts are somewhat based on objective information).  While I’m not a doctor or healthcare provider, nearly every doctor, nurse or technician I know seems to agree that our current model in the U.S. is not sustainable; and I’m willing to believe them considering the annual per capita cost of healthcare in this country is increasing faster than any other industry (including energy). 

 

Someone mentioned earlier that one problem with “socialized” medicine (i.e., a universal, single-payer system) is that people will “abuse” it; for example, going to the hospital for trivial conditions.  It seems to me our current system that leaves 47,000,000 people uninsured yet at the same time requires hospitals to treat people who show up in the emergency room is more fraught with abuse; especially considering 1) ER care is far more expensive than outpatient primary care; and 2) their conditions are more often than not far more advanced (and thus require more extensive and expensive treatment) than if they would have had access to preventive or at least primary corrective care.  And in reality the whole ‘redistribution’ argument doesn’t hold much water since hospitals simply pass on the costs incurred in treating uninsured patients (as well as those who don’t pay and those whose insurance underpays) to the rest of their patients in the form of higher rates anyway.  The reason the ‘list price’ of a splinter removal is $1,200 (an exaggeration, granted) is that the healthcare provider has already factored in their losses for treating uninsured patients, underpayments from Medicare and the like, and a percentage of uncollectable charges into that price so that they will (hopefully) cover their costs for the year overall.  So really we’re all paying for each other’s healthcare expenses anyway, we choose not to see it that way. (source HHS.gov)

 

The ‘government’ essentially controls much of healthcare anyway through interstate commerce laws as well as through policies enforced under Medicare that establish fair pricing for procedures that even most private insurance companies base their reimbursement and coverage policies on as well.  The federal government even decides for the most part where hospitals will exist and how many beds they will have.  It’s interesting to me that some of the areas where we’ve seen people up in arms in town-hall meetings with their congressmen are regions served by critical-access hospitals, similar in concept to the older county public hospital concept where the federal government has established special rules, subsidies and reimbursement policies designed to keep those facilities open even though they operate at a loss, just to ensure those populations are served.

 

And as for public funding of healthcare, nearly half of all spending on healthcare in the U.S. today comes from publically-funded sources (Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, Indian Health Service, DoD hospitals, VA, workmen’s comp, OEO); and another 40% comes from what someone earlier pointed out are essentially socialized sources anyway (i.e., health insurance) which in nearly all cases is subsidized by employers or government agencies.  So while all of that money eventually comes out of all out pockets in one form or another, virtually all the money spent on healthcare today gets allocated based on decisions of some bureaucrat – the difference is simply whether that person works for a faceless corporation interested in profit or a faceless government troll interested in policy.  Again as someone already pointed out, at least one of those I have some options of removing from office if their decisions if they fail to serve my needs.

 

For me the real question here isn’t one of fiscal policy or politics or civil rights though.  The real question is whether we as an American society want to entrust the single most important aspect of our lives to the free market.  We decided long ago that primary and secondary education was too important to entrust to corporations, which is why nearly the entire country operates public schools versus for-profit ones and all of us are entitled to a ‘free’ education.  Same goes for sanitation (i.e., sewage and drinking water).  Same goes for oversight of construction including commercial building, roads and in many places even parks.

 

If anyone really wants to dive deeper on the subject I would strongly recommend Senator Tom Daschle’s book where he presents his proposal of a national health board, similar to the federal reserve board that would be staffed with industry experts and headed by an independent chairman to set healthcare policy.  Daschle believes this is the only type of structure that can work effectively since it removes policy from politics, meaning independent experts take policymaking for healthcare away from Congress and the White House.

 

Critical: What We Can Do About the Health-Care Crisis (Paperback) by Tom Daschle - http://www.amazon.com/Critical-What-About-Health-Care-Crisis/dp/0312561644/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1250100481&sr=8-1 -  

In the interest of bipartisanship, here’s an alternative proposal for reforming market-based healthcare from Harvard University professor and economist Michael Porter.  I personally think his approach puts too much faith and trust in the free-market to regulate and police itself, but it is another option.

Redefining Health Care: Creating Value-Based Competition on Results (Hardcover) by Michael E. Porter - http://www.amazon.com/Redefining-Health-Care-Value-Based-Competition/dp/1591397782/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250100666&sr=1-7 -  

And if you are really interested and want to get a better understanding of how our complex macro health system works today, check out this tome:

Understanding the U.S. Health Services System, Second Edition (Hardcover) by Phoebe Lindsey Barton - < = value=B001JRZHVU> http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Health-Services-System-Second/dp/1567932037 - http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Health-Services-System-Second/dp/1567932037

 

It’s nearly 600 pages long and only presents a pretty high-level view, which should tell you something about how efficiently we do things today.

I don’t know if any of the various proposals working their way through Congressional committees is the right answer, but I’m more convinced than ever that what we’re doing now cannot be sustained, and that we must take action or be left to manage the collapse much the same way we are doing with our poorly-regulated financial industry right now.

IMHO



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"Peace is the only battle worth waging."

Albert Camus


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 13 2009 at 07:07
Hey!  I didn't know this was going to turn into a reading assignment. Tongue
Here I am posting funny cartoons in this thread and someone has to come along and get all serious on us. LOL

Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:

 

For me the real question here isn’t one of fiscal policy or politics or civil rights though.  The real question is whether we as an American society want to entrust the single most important aspect of our lives to the free market.  We decided long ago that primary and secondary education was too important to entrust to corporations, which is why nearly the entire country operates public schools versus for-profit ones and all of us are entitled to a ‘free’ education.  Same goes for sanitation (i.e., sewage and drinking water).  Same goes for oversight of construction including commercial building, roads and in many places even parks.



I essentially agree with you.  The free market does some things very well provided it's well regulated.  Damn them to hell if they manage to get the public option stripped out of the final bill.  It's the one chance put some pressure on the private insurers to lower their costs.  Sure some CEOs might have to take pay cuts.  Freakin' waaa.  I still don't think we have to go all the way to socialized medicine, but a socialized single payer health insurance would mean everyone's covered, everyone pays in, risks are spread over a much larger pool, administration costs are reduced, less paperwork for doctors, and when you take overpaid CEOs out of the equation - cost savings.

By the way you forgot to mentioned our socialized fire departments and police.

Another really important lesson can be learned from what happened when the State of Georgia "deregulated" natural gas.  It was supposed to introduce competition into the system and lower costs.  What happened?  Costs went up.  Why?  Now we have a system with multiple marketers.  The stuff still comes in over the same gas lines.  But we have to now pay for marketing costs, advertising and their multiple overheads.


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 13 2009 at 15:12


Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: August 13 2009 at 16:45
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care - http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care
excellent article on health care.
 A must read.


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 13 2009 at 18:13
Originally posted by KoS KoS wrote:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care - http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care
excellent article on health care.
 A must read.

It must be lies, they keep telling us we have the best health care system in the world. Angry


Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: August 13 2009 at 18:32
This is a tough question.  However, as an American (who has lived without health care from time to time) who is currently living in Germany (which I must say has an excellent health care system) perhaps I am qualified to give an opinion here.  Germany has an excellent health care system of which I am now a part.  In fact, I went to a doctor the other day to get my regeneration medicine (regenerating can take a lot out of a guy) and some allergy medicine and the doctor and medication cost me 18 Euro total.  That's some damn good insurance. 
 
On the flip side of that.  In the US, on a salary of 4000 a month, I paid a total of about 700 in taxes, social security, etc. (not including health insurance).  In Germany, on the same salary, I would pay about 1200 (but including health insurance).  Which is better is up to you.  I guess it depends on your health needs. 
 
Ok. Guess I didn't really give an opinion here.  Embarrassed 


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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?


Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: August 13 2009 at 19:37
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by KoS KoS wrote:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care - http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care
excellent article on health care.
 A must read.

It must be lies, they keep telling us we have the best health care system in the world. Angry
When they say that, it means we have the best doctors in the world. What I like about that article is that the author is pro-consumer. That is, he is in favor of making health insurance exactly that. I have liability insurance in my car, but I still pay for maintenance and minor repairs The insurance is there for unforeseen events, which is exactly what insurance is there for. The same should apply to health care.


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 13 2009 at 19:49
Originally posted by KoS KoS wrote:

When they say that, it means we have the best doctors in the world. What I like about that article is that the author is pro-consumer. That is, he is in favor of making health insurance exactly that. I have liability insurance in my car, but I still pay for maintenance and minor repairs The insurance is there for unforeseen events, which is exactly what insurance is there for. The same should apply to health care.

Interesting point.  Some other things to think about: do we not also have the best mechanics and auto body repair guys in the world?  Sounds a little arrogant to me.  Liability insurance involves you crashing into someone or someone crashing into you.  As cars get older you can buy another one.  Can you buy a new body?  Not yet.  Just wait, The Clonus Horror is coming. Shocked  OK that movie was about freezing clones for organ harvest...

Health coverage involves taking care of you when you get injured as well as chronic conditions when you get old, as well as diseases when you are young, prenatal care, birthing care, etc.  Of course preventative care = maintenance to a certain extent.  Break a leg = minor repairs?  I'm not so sure.  Overlook a broken leg and you may die.  Overlook maintenance or minor repairs on a vehicle and it will still go on for a while...

I'm still not getting the equation between health insurance/care and auto insurance/maintenance.  Some people rely exclusively on walking and/or public transportation or bikes.  Can you rely on no health care?  Feel free to elaborate.

Very good article you linked to by the way.


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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: who-knows-it's-prog
Date Posted: August 13 2009 at 20:23
Imagine the fee paying Americans sl*gging of the NHS....a bit like Hitler sl*gging off shower installers.

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If it's not prog, it's not prog, regardless.


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 13 2009 at 20:28
Godwin'd yourself in 3 posts...well done.


Posted By: who-knows-it's-prog
Date Posted: August 13 2009 at 20:37
What?

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If it's not prog, it's not prog, regardless.


Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: August 14 2009 at 06:17
Anybody who has seen the anti socialised medicine adverts in the USA should check out this article in the Times:
 
Anti-healthcare lobbyists duped us, say Katie Brickell and Kate Spall
 
  http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6795466.ece - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6795466.ece
 
And, for the record, Stephen Hawking has said that he wouldn't be alive today were it not for the NHS.


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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom




Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: August 14 2009 at 06:35
This is a difficult subject. In essence: One of the most important principles of the USA is freedom ("land of the free"). I think that health (care) is something that is as important as freedom. Unfortunately it's also much more expensive. Still, I think that granting basic health care for everyone is almost the same as granting freedom of speech for everyone ... or at least it should be. When people attack Obama (or the Democrats for that matter) of attempting to introduce socialism/communism, they should ask themselves: Is free health care really that different from granting personal freedom for everyone? When slavery was abolished many rich people complained that it cost them money, since they would now have to pay their former slaves for their services. Abolishing slavery does not equal communism, and neither does governmental health care IMO.

Of course implementing it is a lot more difficult than simply approving of the idea. The big problem is where to draw the line between basic health care and expensive treatments. Of course poor people can contract diseases that are expensive to treat, or need organ transplants etc.. Still, granting free health care is, at least in my humble opinion, a mandatory step on the way to a perfect society.


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https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike



Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: August 14 2009 at 07:30
 
To my American friends...
 
Speaking as a Brit born in the 1950's i have nothing but praise for our National Health Service, created in 1947 into an impoverished society recovering from war - i still maintain it is the best thing in this country despite some shortcomings created by under-funding and overcharging by drug companies.
 
The man you Americans saw on your screens recently deriding the British health service, Daniel Hannan,  is a Tory, part of the Conservative party of the UK who want to take Britain back to a long gone Victorian age where the rich were rich and the poor were trampled under grinding poverty - every man for himself, i'm alright f**k everybody else, a very unequal society indeed. Angry
 
Please don't confuse Socialism with Communism as many scaremongers seem to be doing - Obama is a great President and is doing what you voted him in for - to change things for the better.
 
So don't complain about his ideas for making your Health Service fairer for everybody, support him and fight for a fairer system!
 
I wouldn't be here today without the 5 star service i have received over the years with many operations and top notch health care, we are fighting to improve it despite the efforts of the Tories to destroy it . Smile
 
 


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Prog Archives Tour Van



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