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clarke2001 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2009 at 10:13
Originally posted by Captain Capricorn Captain Capricorn wrote:

The Theusz Hamtaahk Trilogy is a great example...also, The Mothers' We're Only In It For The Money has several reoccuring themes.
 
edit: Come to think of it, Zappa's entire catalogue features reoccuring themes!


That band in your avatar is also worth mentioningWink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2009 at 18:30

Suprised nobody has mentioned A Trick of the Tail with Los Endos. Not only does this piece combine elements of Dance on the Volcano and Squonk but the ending has lyrics from Supper's Ready in the background for one reason or another. I look at this piece as Genesis looking back on the former glories with Gabriel. There are other examples in Selling England as well with Cinema Show returning to themes explored in Dancing with the Moonlit Knight.

Now that I think about it these examples are more reoccuring themes on individual albums...but oh well. But I can think of one theme that goes from one album to another; in Rael from The Who Sell Out one will find core instrumental ideas that would be explored on Tommy. So its even present in proto-prog groups.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2009 at 18:35

Missed the obvious as well. Return to Forever's Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy from the album that bears its name and then Beyond the Seventh Galaxy from Where Have I Known You Before


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2009 at 20:40
The Flower Kings keep coming back to certain themes.   Monsters, kings and pschedelic experiences are strewn throughout their albums.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2009 at 14:51

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
Gotta love it ... all we need is a professor here ... we're discussing musical history and there are names for everyone of those concepts ... from Symphony, to Concerto, to Lieder, to Etude ... to .... a miriad of names for them and composers.
 
All in all, the most common tradition to work with is the most obvious, and the one that is taught in schools, and many Prog'rs are not immune to its influence, and folks like Keith Emerson used to love to rip whole passages for a lot of their material ... some for additional musical passages and some for new songs.
 
Music theory is what you're discussing here ... we just have to give some of these folks better credit for doing work that is way more than just a pop song!
 
There are some rock musicians that do not work in music theory and I often think that in their process is a "let's just do this" ... sort of a la Miles Davis (surprise .. he's not one of my favorites for some odd ball reason ... but his compositional methods were very "anty-music" as it became known later -- and defined a lot of jazz too!) ... and often the one thing that ties it all together is one theme that eventually a drummer, or bass player or guitarist or keyboard player will throw in, and it's a hint ... time for us to meet up again ... and that is interesting in a compositional sense ... and sometimes very good.
 
Pink Floyd is actually a good example. You can easily play Echoes, Atom Heart Mother, Dark Side of the Moon, and Obscured by Clouds ... and you will find a couple of notes on Richard's piano that seem to repeat ... and I think these were the "joining points" for the jams to stop and all to come together that separated the old days (quite clear in the bootlegs) and later Pink Floyd. In all cases, this theme ... brings about a change in the music ... into a new area.
 
Is this a symphony? A concert (a la bach, beethoven, etc) ?
 
We can't really find any difference in the compositional nature of "Dark Side of the Moon" ... than any of us can in Beethoven's 5th, or Mahler's 15th!
 
I have to tell you that I have a preference for musicians and creativity that is ... not structured per se ... and this is one reason why I tend to enjoy folks like Peter Hammill (not thrilled with the new Van Der Graaf stuff for some reason ... seems re-hashed to my ear? ... who is very good at ... just expressing what he feels, and does not usually worry about "composition" per se ... although I had ... for the 1st time ever listening to Peter the feeling that ... it has become a song ... I think he needs a break, but can't take that break ... and the opportunity to show and see him or VDG is almost gone ... the desire to be "there" ... still a bit of the rock'n'roll mistique perhaps?
 
In the early days, in the really experimental stuff on their 2nd, 3rd album and 4th album, I really like the "sound sphere" that Djam Karet creates ... unffortunately after that, they sort of fell into ... create a theme, add the 4 beats and ...we got a song! To me, I still love the band ... but the exciting visuals that the cascade of sounds created ... was far out ... and for it to just become a song ... the visual collectiveness dwindled a lot ... a heck of a lot ... still a nice band ... but not have as good as some of the far out stuff they did then.
 
In this sense King Crimson did some nice things ... but they, also were tied to the sonata element/format .... and still are these days ... and I am positive that Robert Fripp is always looking to break those barriers ... and you can see it in his Fripp and Eno stuff and what not ... see?
 
 
 
Nice opinions, but this isn't a thread about what bands focus on their music theory or not. Perhaps this would be suited better for a different thread?
[/QUOTE]

Use of repeitition is a major part of musical theory. I also like the idea that it came out of jamming. I often use repitition in a jam to spring into an exploration of the peice we are creating. I know that is at odds with your opinions on 'theme, 4beats, song' concept but i feel that the real problems caused by such songs come from underelaboration. If you strip most songs back you have a repeted theme along with a 4/4 beat. Look at 'locomotive breath', essentially just a relentless bass line which is made more by the awsome piono, lyrics and flute work. Another example is King crimsons '21st centuary scitzoid man' which has a very structured opening theme/riff but degenerates into a free form jazz peice before collecting for a final verse. In fact, most of my favourite songs probably come out of this system of creativity which i enjoy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2009 at 14:57
The Who's Quadrophenia also has recurring themes throughout, albeit with four separate personalities!Big smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2009 at 16:27
Porcupine Tree does this in sentimental. They take a part from trains.
Steven Wilson said he did this because of a  reference to trains is in the first line of the next song way out of here.

Also it's all over the place in Beethoven's 9th Symphony, from one movement to the next.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 07:14
Genesis - Los Endos. 
It revists other tracks melodies as well as a bit of lyrical content of Supper's Ready.

edit:
ELP - Karn Evil #9 
Just listen and you'll hear the recurring theme over and over.


Edited by StyLaZyn - March 10 2009 at 07:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 18:41
its what i really love about prog really, thats what i try and explain to people when they ask what prog is ( i say has recurring themes, classical/symphonic leanings)

if we're talking themes developed over a series of albums ... i definitely hear this in flower kings catalog. (but it may just be down to the artist's preference of chord structure, melody and emotion, fav lick?)
if we're talking themes developed through an album - then concept albums are an obvious choice for me. modern bands that i feel do this exceptionally well are: POS, neal morse, ayreon, glass hammer, flower kings, the last song on the ritual album 'hemulic voluntary band', first half of the 1st tangent record, DT octavarium (the song) plus many more.

of course its all through yes' Tales from topographic oceans as someone mentioned.

p.s. i love that cacho/collaborator tag about loving the sound of the hammond. jon lord is a master!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2009 at 13:56
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Yes's Tales from Topographic Oceans makes a great use of two main themes presented after the introduction of "The Revealing Science of God."  You hear the second one throughout the album, chiefly toward the end of "The Remembering" and again at the end of "Ritual" (although in a minor key).  The first one is also prominent in "Ritual."

In addition, you can hear snippets of previous works, like "Close to the Edge."  In "Ritual," Howe plays the guitar theme (just before the words) from "Close to the Edge" during one atmospheric section.  In "The Ancient," he plays a snippet of the very first guitar notes from "Close to the Edge" on classical guitar, and prior to that, hearkens back to his repetitive guitar theme from "Siberian Khatru" on electric.

Smile
 
Been listening to this album very closely for the last few days, even to the point of identifying the sections of the songs (i.e ABCB etc.), and it is remarkable how well this album flows when listened in full. Before I thought this album wasn't well structured aside from the first disc, but now its incredible how 'The Ancient' and 'Ritual (Nous Sommes Du Soleil)' connect and expand on themes of disc 1.
 
'Nous Sommes Du Soleil's melody is culled from 'The Rembering', Wakeman's atmospheric secitions in 'The Remembering' are extremely similar to those on 'The Revealing the Science of God ' and these sections are found in 'Ritual' as well; also Howe's solos in 'Ritual' contain themes from 'Revealing the Science of God' and 'The Remembering' not to mention Squire's lead bass section in 'Ritual' from the Relayer section of 'The Remembering.'
 
Overall an extremely intricate album of multiple recurring themesLOL

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2009 at 15:59
How about Jethro Tull? TaaB is a good example.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2009 at 21:27
definitely jethro tull.
a passion play has a great main theme and is such a good listen when you haven't heard it in a while.
actually on a side note ... just got ian anderson plays orchestral dvd in the post to watch fri nite. hope its a good watch. also got the phil keaggy 30th anniversary tour of master & the musician dvd with same package.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2009 at 22:14
Just gave another listen to Not Of This World by Pendragon. What a great album, and of course tons of recurring themes on all the songs of the album. This repeated themes usually maximize the emotional impact music gives me; it's a great thing.

Now that I think about it, Pendragon deserves a place in my signature. Goodbye, Rush! Welcome, Pendies! Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2009 at 04:17
Crimson & Fripp have done this for 40 years, very consequently and sometimes too much  
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2009 at 13:53
Originally posted by shanocles shanocles wrote:

definitely jethro tull.
a passion play has a great main theme and is such a good listen when you haven't heard it in a while.
actually on a side note ... just got ian anderson plays orchestral dvd in the post to watch fri nite. hope its a good watch. also got the phil keaggy 30th anniversary tour of master & the musician dvd with same package.
 
Previewed this Ian Anderson cd online the other day and it sounded like it was worth checking out, let me know how it is I might just get the dvd as well

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2009 at 18:39
Originally posted by mr.cub mr.cub wrote:

Originally posted by shanocles shanocles wrote:

definitely jethro tull.
a passion play has a great main theme and is such a good listen when you haven't heard it in a while.
actually on a side note ... just got ian anderson plays orchestral dvd in the post to watch fri nite. hope its a good watch. also got the phil keaggy 30th anniversary tour of master & the musician dvd with same package.
 
Previewed this Ian Anderson cd online the other day and it sounded like it was worth checking out, let me know how it is I might just get the dvd as well


sure thing. i gave it a quick spin when i first arrived and its ok i guess. couldn't really hear the strings that much. also ian struggles to hit the higher notes it seemed so they transposed some of the songs which make them sound a little different ... awaiting better viewing tonite. its PROG NITE at my house. (every few months or so my bro-in-law comes round and we share dvd's and stuff. he's got some tommy emmanuel and i got the JT and keaggy stuff. should be a good nite!)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2009 at 22:41
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

 
Pink Floyd is actually a good example. You can easily play Echoes, Atom Heart Mother, Dark Side of the Moon, and Obscured by Clouds ... and you will find a couple of notes on Richard's piano that seem to repeat ... and I think these were the "joining points" for the jams to stop and all to come together that separated the old days (quite clear in the bootlegs) and later Pink Floyd. In all cases, this theme ... brings about a change in the music ... into a new area.
 
Is this a symphony? A concert (a la bach, beethoven, etc) ?
 
We can't really find any difference in the compositional nature of "Dark Side of the Moon" ... than any of us can in Beethoven's 5th, or Mahler's 15th!

Hmmm, I am going to check that out, I hope the cold medicine I took doesn't put me to sleep before I can finish all the PF, and I was going to listen to In a Gadda Da Vida.Shocked Embarrassed



Edited by A Person - March 12 2009 at 22:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2009 at 10:30
Wow a thread that is actually about music Shocked ! Interesting thread. Unless I missed I`m suprised nobody has mentioned  the center piece of Focus`Moving Waves, Eruption. It is almost entirely based on 16th century Italian operatic composer`s opera Euridice. Plenty of recurring themes on that one.

Edited by Vibrationbaby - March 13 2009 at 10:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2009 at 06:54
Originally posted by shanocles shanocles wrote:

Originally posted by mr.cub mr.cub wrote:

Originally posted by shanocles shanocles wrote:

definitely jethro tull.
a passion play has a great main theme and is such a good listen when you haven't heard it in a while.
actually on a side note ... just got ian anderson plays orchestral dvd in the post to watch fri nite. hope its a good watch. also got the phil keaggy 30th anniversary tour of master & the musician dvd with same package.
 
Previewed this Ian Anderson cd online the other day and it sounded like it was worth checking out, let me know how it is I might just get the dvd as well


sure thing. i gave it a quick spin when i first arrived and its ok i guess. couldn't really hear the strings that much. also ian struggles to hit the higher notes it seemed so they transposed some of the songs which make them sound a little different ... awaiting better viewing tonite. its PROG NITE at my house. (every few months or so my bro-in-law comes round and we share dvd's and stuff. he's got some tommy emmanuel and i got the JT and keaggy stuff. should be a good nite!)


hi mr. cub ... watched the dvd and i'd say pass on getting the dvd and cd. it wasn't that thrilled with it actually. better to get something from their heyday when they could hit the higher notes when singing. but having said that if you like the acoustic take on the songs then maybe check it out. definitely wait until its cheap/bargain buys!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2009 at 10:49
^ Ok thanks for the advice

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