Recurring themes in prog
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Topic: Recurring themes in prog
Posted By: topofsm
Subject: Recurring themes in prog
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 21:34
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One of the things I love about symphonically based music is the reocurrence of important themes and motifs in a piece of music. As a percussionist in my local symphony orchestra, I have to say I'm quite familiar with the usage of this by the masters.
However, I also like rock and metal bands that utilize reocurring and familiar themes. This aspect of music is one that I find is consistently pulled off well by Dream Theater. As much as I don't see the greatness in their critically acclaimed album "Scenes from a Memory", they dabble familiar melodies in well all throughout it. They especially make great use of it in "Home", where they reuse chord progressions and drumkit rhythms from "Metropolis Pt. 1".
Another artist that I feel does this well is Nine Inch Nails. Anybody who has heard "The Downward Spiral" or "The Fragile" knows that several songs on each of those albums share a couple familiar melodies. Not only that, but Trent Reznor also writes in some great reocurring lyrics. If you've heard a fair amount of NIN material, chances are you've heard the phrase "Nothing can Stop Me Now" more than once, and not even just in one album.
Anyways, what are some artists that you feel use this technique well? ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 02:49
The Beach Boys' "Smile" might be able to use a lot of reocurring phrases as you said...if the album could be made completely...I think.  (I found the possibility in their box set...several songs far from completion of SMILE.) ------------- http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 04:10
When I saw the title, I thought this thread would be more about themes in the sense of "what the music is about" and a lot of progressive rock being about similar subject matter, rather than in the Wagnerian leitmotif sense. 
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 05:10
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Yes lyrics often feature the "Eyes Of Child" as a lyric, not sure what it means. Nature and the magic of life is also a common theme or so it would seem. ------------- 
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 06:38
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Peter Hammill uses this technique a lot in his opera "The Fall of the House of Usher"; there are several themes which will occur again later. He uses a lot of other highly advanced composing techniques in it too, by the way, like true polyphony and counterpoint. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Captain Capricorn
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 06:45
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The Theusz Hamtaahk Trilogy is a great example...also, The Mothers' We're Only In It For The Money has several reoccuring themes.
edit: Come to think of it, Zappa's entire catalogue features reoccuring themes!
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Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 07:22
| Frank Zappa: Poodles (aka Phronobulax) |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 08:15
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Yes's Tales from Topographic Oceans makes a great use of two main themes presented after the introduction of "The Revealing Science of God." You hear the second one throughout the album, chiefly toward the end of "The Remembering" and again at the end of "Ritual" (although in a minor key). The first one is also prominent in "Ritual." In addition, you can hear snippets of previous works, like "Close to the Edge." In "Ritual," Howe plays the guitar theme (just before the words) from "Close to the Edge" during one atmospheric section. In "The Ancient," he plays a snippet of the very first guitar notes from "Close to the Edge" on classical guitar, and prior to that, hearkens back to his repetitive guitar theme from "Siberian Khatru" on electric.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Endless Wire
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 15:50
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Good topic, recurring musical ideas is one of my absolute favorite things in music. Perhaps nobody does it better than Pain of Salvation, though. Just listen to BE, where practically every other melody can be heard somewhere else in the album but performed in a different way. These type of things add a lot of lasting value to an album for me.
I'm actually experiementing a lot with the concept to a great extent in my own music. ------------- . |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 18:12
I've only listened to TFTO a couple times, but I thought I was the only one who noticed that. I also think I heard a couple classical motifs thrown in on Time and a Word. I like the way Yes does that too. -------------
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Epignosis wrote:Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 18:14
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^ah, I thought I was the only one too, lol I'll have to think of one, now I don't remember any from the top my head... |
Posted By: TheCaptain
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 18:38
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The Flower Kings do this quite a bit. "Unfold the Future" has the theme from The Truth Will Set You Free that shows up plenty. "Stardust We Are" also has quite a bit of this.
------------- Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal. |
Posted By: Endless Wire
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 19:50
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Another band that I just thought of that does it a bit is Coheed and Cambria (and now begins the are they prog debate...). Though they don't do it extremely often, when they do choose to do it the effect is very striking. Anybody else notice the C&C motifs? ------------- . |
Posted By: 30761760
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 11:07
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I can think of two themes i loved. One is the 'brick in the wall' song used to gel the whole albam. It allows the work to be veiwed as a story of life rather than seperate songs (although as the many 'best of' albams and radio airings have shown, they are great songs in their own right. Also, Tulls 'Wandering Aloud' theme, which runs through many of their albams. These are examples of great use of repertition. There is, in my opinon, a bad use of themes. It can often show a lack of thought and origionality. If used sparingly it can tie pieces together. Too much of the same thing can often cheapen it (a bit of simple economic philosophy there. Yeah.).
------------- When music becomes a commodity, music dies. |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 11:59
| Trasatnlantic's " Bridge across forever" has loads of recurring themes |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 13:04
jajajajaja so true, never thought about it though... ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 13:11
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Well, I know about some bands with recurring themes, recurring music, recurring albums and recurring members... Don't like it very much ------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 15:01
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Hi,
Gotta love it ... all we need is a professor here ... we're discussing musical history and there are names for everyone of those concepts ... from Symphony, to Concerto, to Lieder, to Etude ... to .... a miriad of names for them and composers.
All in all, the most common tradition to work with is the most obvious, and the one that is taught in schools, and many Prog'rs are not immune to its influence, and folks like Keith Emerson used to love to rip whole passages for a lot of their material ... some for additional musical passages and some for new songs.
Music theory is what you're discussing here ... we just have to give some of these folks better credit for doing work that is way more than just a pop song!
There are some rock musicians that do not work in music theory and I often think that in their process is a "let's just do this" ... sort of a la Miles Davis (surprise .. he's not one of my favorites for some odd ball reason ... but his compositional methods were very "anty-music" as it became known later -- and defined a lot of jazz too!) ... and often the one thing that ties it all together is one theme that eventually a drummer, or bass player or guitarist or keyboard player will throw in, and it's a hint ... time for us to meet up again ... and that is interesting in a compositional sense ... and sometimes very good.
Pink Floyd is actually a good example. You can easily play Echoes, Atom Heart Mother, Dark Side of the Moon, and Obscured by Clouds ... and you will find a couple of notes on Richard's piano that seem to repeat ... and I think these were the "joining points" for the jams to stop and all to come together that separated the old days (quite clear in the bootlegs) and later Pink Floyd. In all cases, this theme ... brings about a change in the music ... into a new area.
Is this a symphony? A concert (a la bach, beethoven, etc) ?
We can't really find any difference in the compositional nature of "Dark Side of the Moon" ... than any of us can in Beethoven's 5th, or Mahler's 15th!
I have to tell you that I have a preference for musicians and creativity that is ... not structured per se ... and this is one reason why I tend to enjoy folks like Peter Hammill (not thrilled with the new Van Der Graaf stuff for some reason ... seems re-hashed to my ear? ... who is very good at ... just expressing what he feels, and does not usually worry about "composition" per se ... although I had ... for the 1st time ever listening to Peter the feeling that ... it has become a song ... I think he needs a break, but can't take that break ... and the opportunity to show and see him or VDG is almost gone ... the desire to be "there" ... still a bit of the rock'n'roll mistique perhaps?
In the early days, in the really experimental stuff on their 2nd, 3rd album and 4th album, I really like the "sound sphere" that Djam Karet creates ... unffortunately after that, they sort of fell into ... create a theme, add the 4 beats and ...we got a song! To me, I still love the band ... but the exciting visuals that the cascade of sounds created ... was far out ... and for it to just become a song ... the visual collectiveness dwindled a lot ... a heck of a lot ... still a nice band ... but not have as good as some of the far out stuff they did then.
In this sense King Crimson did some nice things ... but they, also were tied to the sonata element/format .... and still are these days ... and I am positive that Robert Fripp is always looking to break those barriers ... and you can see it in his Fripp and Eno stuff and what not ... see?
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Posted By: zappaholic
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 19:44
Yup. He considered ALL of his work to be one huge piece. He even came up with terms to describe it - Project/Object and Conceptual Continuity.
------------- "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 20:13
Yeah. You won't even hear it in the English if you listen to "Le Mer" from the NIN album "The Fragile"
Nice opinions, but this isn't a thread about what bands focus on their music theory or not. Perhaps this would be suited better for a different thread? -------------
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Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 10:13
That band in your avatar is also worth mentioning 
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Posted By: mr.cub
Date Posted: March 08 2009 at 18:30
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Suprised nobody has mentioned A Trick of the Tail with Los Endos. Not only does this piece combine elements of Dance on the Volcano and Squonk but the ending has lyrics from Supper's Ready in the background for one reason or another. I look at this piece as Genesis looking back on the former glories with Gabriel. There are other examples in Selling England as well with Cinema Show returning to themes explored in Dancing with the Moonlit Knight. Now that I think about it these examples are more reoccuring themes on individual albums...but oh well. But I can think of one theme that goes from one album to another; in Rael from The Who Sell Out one will find core instrumental ideas that would be explored on Tommy. So its even present in proto-prog groups. ------------- 
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Posted By: mr.cub
Date Posted: March 08 2009 at 18:35
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Missed the obvious as well. Return to Forever's Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy from the album that bears its name and then Beyond the Seventh Galaxy from Where Have I Known You Before -------------
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: March 08 2009 at 20:40
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The Flower Kings keep coming back to certain themes. Monsters, kings and pschedelic experiences are strewn throughout their albums. ------------- 
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Posted By: 30761760
Date Posted: March 09 2009 at 14:51
Nice opinions, but this isn't a thread about what bands focus on their music theory or not. Perhaps this would be suited better for a different thread? [/QUOTE]Use of repeitition is a major part of musical theory. I also like the idea that it came out of jamming. I often use repitition in a jam to spring into an exploration of the peice we are creating. I know that is at odds with your opinions on 'theme, 4beats, song' concept but i feel that the real problems caused by such songs come from underelaboration. If you strip most songs back you have a repeted theme along with a 4/4 beat. Look at 'locomotive breath', essentially just a relentless bass line which is made more by the awsome piono, lyrics and flute work. Another example is King crimsons '21st centuary scitzoid man' which has a very structured opening theme/riff but degenerates into a free form jazz peice before collecting for a final verse. In fact, most of my favourite songs probably come out of this system of creativity which i enjoy. ------------- When music becomes a commodity, music dies. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: March 09 2009 at 14:57
The Who's Quadrophenia also has recurring themes throughout, albeit with four separate personalities!
------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: GlassPrison68
Date Posted: March 09 2009 at 16:27
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Porcupine Tree does this in sentimental. They take a part from trains. Steven Wilson said he did this because of a reference to trains is in the first line of the next song way out of here. Also it's all over the place in Beethoven's 9th Symphony, from one movement to the next. ------------- Let the progsters find you and beat you in 7/8 time! -Jordan Rudess |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: March 10 2009 at 07:14
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Genesis - Los Endos. It revists other tracks melodies as well as a bit of lyrical content of Supper's Ready. edit: ELP - Karn Evil #9 Just listen and you'll hear the recurring theme over and over.
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Posted By: shanocles
Date Posted: March 10 2009 at 18:41
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its what i really love about prog really, thats what i try and explain
to people when they ask what prog is ( i say has recurring themes,
classical/symphonic leanings) if we're talking themes developed over a series of albums ... i definitely hear this in flower kings catalog. (but it may just be down to the artist's preference of chord structure, melody and emotion, fav lick?) if we're talking themes developed through an album - then concept albums are an obvious choice for me. modern bands that i feel do this exceptionally well are: POS, neal morse, ayreon, glass hammer, flower kings, the last song on the ritual album 'hemulic voluntary band', first half of the 1st tangent record, DT octavarium (the song) plus many more. of course its all through yes' Tales from topographic oceans as someone mentioned. p.s. i love that cacho/collaborator tag about loving the sound of the hammond. jon lord is a master! ------------- if left is wrong i don't wanna be right... 
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Posted By: mr.cub
Date Posted: March 11 2009 at 13:56
Been listening to this album very closely for the last few days, even to the point of identifying the sections of the songs (i.e ABCB etc.), and it is remarkable how well this album flows when listened in full. Before I thought this album wasn't well structured aside from the first disc, but now its incredible how 'The Ancient' and 'Ritual (Nous Sommes Du Soleil)' connect and expand on themes of disc 1.
'Nous Sommes Du Soleil's melody is culled from 'The Rembering', Wakeman's atmospheric secitions in 'The Remembering' are extremely similar to those on 'The Revealing the Science of God ' and these sections are found in 'Ritual' as well; also Howe's solos in 'Ritual' contain themes from 'Revealing the Science of God' and 'The Remembering' not to mention Squire's lead bass section in 'Ritual' from the Relayer section of 'The Remembering.'
Overall an extremely intricate album of multiple recurring themes  -------------
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: March 11 2009 at 15:59
| How about Jethro Tull? TaaB is a good example. |
Posted By: shanocles
Date Posted: March 11 2009 at 21:27
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definitely jethro tull.
a passion play has a great main theme and is such a good listen when you haven't heard it in a while.
actually on a side note ... just got ian anderson plays orchestral dvd in the post to watch fri nite. hope its a good watch. also got the phil keaggy 30th anniversary tour of master & the musician dvd with same package. ------------- if left is wrong i don't wanna be right...
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Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: March 11 2009 at 22:14
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Just gave another listen to Not Of This World by Pendragon. What a great album, and of course tons of recurring themes on all the songs of the album. This repeated themes usually maximize the emotional impact music gives me; it's a great thing. Now that I think about it, Pendragon deserves a place in my signature. Goodbye, Rush! Welcome, Pendies! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Barla/?chartstyle=LastfmMyspace">  
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Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: March 12 2009 at 04:17
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Crimson & Fripp have done this for 40 years, very consequently and sometimes too much ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: mr.cub
Date Posted: March 12 2009 at 13:53
Previewed this Ian Anderson cd online the other day and it sounded like it was worth checking out, let me know how it is I might just get the dvd as well -------------
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Posted By: shanocles
Date Posted: March 12 2009 at 18:39
sure thing. i gave it a quick spin when i first arrived and its ok i guess. couldn't really hear the strings that much. also ian struggles to hit the higher notes it seemed so they transposed some of the songs which make them sound a little different ... awaiting better viewing tonite. its PROG NITE at my house. (every few months or so my bro-in-law comes round and we share dvd's and stuff. he's got some tommy emmanuel and i got the JT and keaggy stuff. should be a good nite!) ------------- if left is wrong i don't wanna be right...
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Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: March 12 2009 at 22:41
Hmmm, I am going to check that out, I hope the cold medicine I took doesn't put me to sleep before I can finish all the PF, and I was going to listen to In a Gadda Da Vida.   |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: March 13 2009 at 10:30
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Wow a thread that is actually about music ! Interesting thread. Unless I missed I`m suprised nobody has mentioned the center piece of Focus`Moving Waves, Eruption. It is almost entirely based on 16th century Italian operatic composer`s opera Euridice. Plenty of recurring themes on that one.
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Posted By: shanocles
Date Posted: March 15 2009 at 06:54
hi mr. cub ... watched the dvd and i'd say pass on getting the dvd and cd. it wasn't that thrilled with it actually. better to get something from their heyday when they could hit the higher notes when singing. but having said that if you like the acoustic take on the songs then maybe check it out. definitely wait until its cheap/bargain buys! ------------- if left is wrong i don't wanna be right...
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Posted By: mr.cub
Date Posted: March 15 2009 at 10:49
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^ Ok thanks for the advice -------------
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Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 03:51
Fish-era Marillion because of the "Jester" theme. Now, that is specifically lyrical recurrence. Musical recurrence is probably most evident in prog bands that have made a "suite" (again, something the classical masters originated). Off the top of my head, Marillion's Misplaced Childhood and Like Wendy's Falcon Suite fit the bill... |
Posted By: Synchestra
Date Posted: April 16 2009 at 06:56
its a huge part of the fun in PoS albums. I actually read somewhere something about Gildenlow taking one of the melodies from The Perfect Element: part 1 and turning it into a chord structure on scarsick (being part two of course) i dont know alot about music theory so i cant verify it, its a fun thought though  ------------- 'Yeah, thats.. Whatever you're talking about for ya' - Zapp brannigan |
Posted By: Synchestra
Date Posted: April 16 2009 at 06:58
I was just listening to Stardust and could've sworn i heard one of the parts from 'different people' in it, thought i was going crazy from too much of the kings  ------------- 'Yeah, thats.. Whatever you're talking about for ya' - Zapp brannigan |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 16 2009 at 11:50
Thank you ... I replied to the post within a larger context than just one theme ... and you extended it ... and that is great ... and to me awesome. I appreciate this quite a bit.
Repetition has its place, and no one that does ragas (eastern musical concepts ... not western musical concepts) considers it "repetition" since it is not about the "notes" and "scales" as much as it is about how it is being played and brought forth ... which is the important part that really makes music come alive ... up until then, much of it is ... not much ... I certainly do not wish to say "nothing" since there is always something, that we might not see, or readily find.
We might as well add that Ravel's Bolero for many years was considered horribly boring! And Debussy dull. And Stravinsky ... not music!
You do what you know and feels right ... and it may repeat a theme or not ... and it may have a set of notes that are similar to that one band you used to like ... but within the context it is being played ... this is where some of the law courts are getting out of hand when it comes to plasiarism, and such ... playing the same 5 notes that Pete Townsend did on a song is not a copy .... unless I'm using the same guitar, amp, effects and song!
But some themes make a band recognizeable ... and most bands do not change from their start in this respect ... the only band I know that has absolutely nothing in common on the 1st, 5th and 10th album is Amon Duul 2 ... the rest tend to show way too much "copy" of what they already had done.
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Posted By: progvortex
Date Posted: April 20 2009 at 23:07
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The best example of this that comes to mind is Close to the Edge : "I get up I get down" is repeated in all four sections of the title track, each with a starkly different emotion behind it.
------------- Life is like a beanstalk... isn't it? |