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Topic ClosedDo you like Never Mind the Bollocks?

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Poll Question: do you enjoy this landmark album by The Sex Pistols?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
19 [47.50%]
14 [35.00%]
7 [17.50%]
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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 20:58
Originally posted by Pnoom! Pnoom! wrote:

First of all, Hughes, excellent post.

Dean, you make some good points, but I disagree with "at the time it would not have mattered what was on the record."  If it had not been so perfectly put together, with music just as visceral as the image it represented, it certainly wouldn't be as big as it is today (though perhaps it would've been just as big back then, I can't honestly claim to know).

Also, New Wave is awesome and I'm not sure how bands like Black Flag and Dead Kennedys (who came in the wake of the Sex Pistols) are in any way "watered down" (or any band in that scene).
I was 19 in 1976 and I was a Punk (all be it a fat Punk in full employment and a sizable Prog collection that I still played, all of which is an anachronism, but there you go), so I can only speak of my personal recollections from the time based on the UK scene (yeah, we listened to The Ramones, but they weren't as big over here as they like to think they were). Every kid who wanted to be a Punk praised The Pistols and The Clash, most of them without ever hearing a single note of their music, because you couldn't hear their music - you weren't allowed to - when they played my home-town I missed them because they had to sneak in under an assumed name (The Tax Exiles) because the local council had banned them as did The Dammed (who played as either The Banned or The Doomed or something similar) - those kids (myself included) would have bought it regardless of how "good" it was.
 
In some respects NMTBHTSP was too perfect, too well produced, (by then we got the joke - we actually didn't need MacLaren to spell it out for us in The Great Rock'n' Roll Swindle), in some respects it goes against the whole Do It Yourself idea of Punk in how manufactured and heavily produced it is. The Buzzcock's Spiral Scratch EP was more visceral and much less perfectly put together.
 
I don't think NMTBHTSP was so influential at the time - the Pistols undoubtably were, but the album was not - and I don't know whether it really is that influential now - I can think of far more influential albums from that time - bands like The Buzzcocks, Joy Division, The Fall, Siouxsie & The Banshees who were inspired by the Pistols were actually formed before its release and share none of it's musical style.
 
[The watered-down Punk I refer to were bands like the Adverts, Tenpole Tudor, The Lurkers, X-Ray Specs, Generation-X, The Cockney Rejects and to some extent Sham 69 - and I think those bands were a musical dead-end. The real inspirational pioneers of what we call New Wave and Post Punk (Wire, Banshees, Penetration, Gloria Mundi, Television, The Fall, The Pop Group, Magazine, Gang Of Four etc) were almost a parallel development that owed their formation to the Punk ideal, but not the music.]
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 21:20
^ The Pistols and early punk were a hugely different thing in the UK than in the US.

Punk was never a social movement or very visable trend in the US except in a few big cities. In the US, The Pistols were mostly a curiosity with only a few hipster college students getting into what they were doing.

Edited by Easy Money - February 12 2009 at 21:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 00:12
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

In the mid 80s in San Francisco there was a post hardcore scene with a strong prog-rock influence, some of the bands included Victims Family, Crash n Burn, Hello Kitty on Ice, No Means No (from Canada), Slovenly (LA) Rhythm Pigs (Texas) as well as Nuerosis (on PA) and Faith No More.


I love Victims Family! they had such an out of control rhythm section, their first 2 albums are some of  my all time favorites, and of course NoMeansNo are absolute legends!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 03:17
I've always had this feeling that Punk was completely fabricated as a direct result of the failure of The Wombles to conquer the world.
 
It was perceived as a protest movement of the so-called young no-future generation (now bankers and stockbrokers). I believe that it started spontaneously and just two weeks later it was purely Product (capital 'P'), with the cleverest marketing you're likely to see, and practically everyone was fooled by it. Malcolm McLaren anyone?
 
Pure lifestyle fashion, no substance. Mainly middle class kids playing at being poor.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 07:03
Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

Pure lifestyle fashion, no substance. Mainly middle class kids playing at being poor.


The best parody of which could be seen as 'Common People' by Pulp; a long time later, but none the less incisive.

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 09:44
Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I always liked it. I've read numerous critiques by idiot journalists who harp on about it's cultural significance, in a similar way they did over Nirvanas 'Nevermind' (which is clearly musically superior)

Lets not lose grip of the rope here; it's a ramshackle collection of simplistic rock 'n' roll songs, by a gang of virtually talentless kids. Lets take it for what it is; a bit of fun.


I think you've hit the nail firmly on the head there, Blacksword; to me (and I know many will disagree with me) The Sex Pistols were a 4th rate (bad) pub heavy metal band with a clever manager; NMTB was written, played & produced badly & to these ears had virtually no redeeming features whatsoever - especially when compared to debut albums by The Clash, The Stranglers, The Buzzcocks & even to an extent Souixie & The Banshees.

But that's probably just me...


Agreed. The Pistols were probably the worst punk band, to have ever made a name for themselves, but they probably captured, what we believed to be, the punk spirit in the UK, at the time. The Clash were not particularly offensive, nor were Souixsie & the banshees. The Stranglers (not punk, but hey lets not open that can of worms) were pretty obnoxious, but were too 'clever' and poetic to be punk! Same goes for Killing Joke a few years later.

The Pistols were crass and crap through and through, and lived up to McLarens philosophy that a band that cant play, is better than a band that can. But then, old Malcolm was always something of a d!ck.

I have no problem with punk generally. There is a lot of punk I'm quite partial to, even now, but I just cant stand middle class, middle aged music critics in hemp shirts and John Lennon glasses, harping on about it's cultural significance or artistic worth. It was mostly sh*t. Get over it.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 09:52

To be quite frank, either the Stooges or the Ramones would have very easily blown the Sex Pistols off the stage. Still, Never Mind the Bullocks does have its moments. "Pretty Vacant" is one of my favorite punk songs.  

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 10:36
^^ Indeed. I always regarded punk as a US invention. It only became synonomous with England (mostly London) because of the Vivien Westwood fashions that accompanied the Sex Pistols, and of course the classic British moral outrage, that the middle classes displayed in reaction to it.IMO.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 10:57
Never got into The Stooges, but The Ramones were a pure force of nature; total wall of sound

It could be said it went back even further with bands such as the New York Dolls or even Alice Cooper (often referred to as the grandfather of punk).

As I saw it (even though I liked a lot of the bands), Punk in Britain was more to do with fashion than music

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 11:02
Belson Was A Gas.Sid Vicious couldn`t even play the bass or even sing My Way ( although that was him solo.) But you gotta love `em. I also have an old copy of The great Rock `n Roll Swindle. Love the versions of Johnny B. Goode and Road Runner. Lydon forgets the words and even anounces how much he hates the songs and Sreve Jones doesn`t even know what song they`re supposed to be playing and everything just goes to rats***. C`mon this stuff is just too funny. Remember when Sid Vicious died I was playing a hockey game in February `79 when he od`d on heroin. I think he just came out of a 60 day forced rehab program.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 11:18
^ (pointing towards Jim's post) Yeah, that is what I have been trying to say. It was more about fashion in the UK and Europe, but the bands that emerged from the California and Boston/D.C. hard core scene had much better instrumental skills. Bad Brains had one of the best drummers I have ever heard.

Edited by Easy Money - February 13 2009 at 11:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 11:23
Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

It was perceived as a protest movement of the so-called young no-future generation (now bankers and stockbrokers).


Right, so no future still applies. Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 11:24
Yes. I think it's a massively overrated album, but about half of the songs are genuine classics of their genre (Anarchy, Pretty Vacant, Holidays in the Sun, God Save The Queen, Submission, No Feelings) and its influence on popular culture was massive. John Lydon went on to do some pretty cool stuff with PIL as well. My one and only karaoke performance was singing Anarchy in the UK in a japanese karaoke bar many years ago.
'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 12:47
Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Never got into The Stooges, but The Ramones were a pure force of nature; total wall of sound

It could be said it went back even further with bands such as the New York Dolls or even Alice Cooper (often referred to as the grandfather of punk).

As I saw it (even though I liked a lot of the bands), Punk in Britain was more to do with fashion than music
You could probably take it further back to the MC5's Kick Out The Jams, and even the name Punk was of American derivation. Most London Punk bands came out of the Pub Rock scene.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 12:59

Yeah!!! MC5 and Kick Out the Jams.  I confiscated my dad's LP from him many years ago.  It is actually hard for me to picture my dad actually liking this music.  LOL

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 13:03
i've never paid no mind to the bullocks, I did like PIL's Compact Disc, which I tried last year. Album, Cassette, 8-Track, and Wax Cylinder were bloody awful though.  Tongue




Edited by Slartibartfast - February 13 2009 at 13:37
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 13:09
I wonder if Punk Archives have this level of discussion over Tales From Topographic Oceans? Ermm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 13:17
I don't think I've ever heard NMtB. But the picture on the cover of The Flowers of Romance must be one of the prettiest things ever. Heart
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 14:29
For a lot of you guys who hate punk I don`t know? this thread has gone some 4 pages on a progrock site whereas I`ve seen a few threads about prog bands die out after maybe 10-15 posts, Suprised no none has mentioned the Exploited or Canadian band DOA who do a killer version of BTO`s Takin`Care Of Business. I agree with the guys who have mentioned PIL got a couple of their albums as well myself.

I was just comparing ACDC`s version of Johnny B Goode to the Sex Pistols "version" and I find the Sex Pistol`s "version" far more entertaining. I saw Joey Ramone ( RIP ) getting tattooed in a Calgary tattooo shop once when I was witha friend who was checking out tatoos and said hello to him. I don`t care what anyone says the Ramones were the first punk band. Wasn`t the Brits. They were formed in Queeens NY in `74 and went for at least 20 years. Love their versions of Spider Man and Louis Armstrong`s Wonderful World ( it can be heard over the closing credits on Michael Moore`s Bowling For Columbine ) and of course I Don`t Want to Grow Up. So it at least proves that the punks were clued into other styles of music to an extent.

If you want to get down to it The Who were the first real punk band.Really think about it. If you wanto look at it that way then I guess the Brits invented Punk,

I saw John Lydon defending himself on Judge Judy once. Apparantly Lydon fired his drummer  in  and assaulted him.. He kept interrupting Judge Judy  she had to threaten to throw him out of the courtroom about 6 or 7 times. People in the court were even laughing. I was laaughing my ass off as welI think it had something to do witha breach of a verbal contract. Judge Judy ruled in favour of Lydon. In the interview at the end Lydon said that the plainif would have been better off as an interior decorator.

One other thing that I don`t understand is this term " prog community " it`s a made-up term. I`ll speak for myself here. I always considered myself a MUSIC fan. If fact right now I`m jamming with a metal band every time we get the chance to get away from our wives.

Now, I don`t mean ti insult or offendanyone here. There`s a prog festival here in Montréal I think every year  ( The Strawbs played a couple of years back , one of my favourite bands of all time  )which is set up just to generate $$$$$$$$ which I adamantly boycott along with the Montréal International Jazz Festival.which I religiosly attended every year until they started selling bottles of water for $4.50 and a beer for $6.75 and your bags checked at the entrances to the venue which now takes place at place des Arts. They used to have it on Rue St. Denis Believe me I`d have rather gone to see The Exploited. At least the punks and metal heads are  honest, at least the ones I`ve met.
I just don`t know why some people don`t have open minds anymore and are soooooo serious about things. A sign of the times I guess. C`mon Duke let`s go out on to the porch to the rocking chair and watch the sun go down.


Edited by Vibrationbaby - February 13 2009 at 14:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 14:40
Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Never got into The Stooges, but The Ramones were a pure force of nature; total wall of sound

It could be said it went back even further with bands such as the New York Dolls or even Alice Cooper (often referred to as the grandfather of punk).

As I saw it (even though I liked a lot of the bands), Punk in Britain was more to do with fashion than music
I would have to say that Alice Cooper would be more acuarately called the grandfather of shock rock. Punk? Like to hear what he would have to say about that. I would say The New York Dolls would be better classified as glam rockers taking cues from Bowie and Gary Glitter ( who found himself in a wee bit of trouble in Vietnam of all places ).
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