Getting estranged from prog

BaldJean wrote: as to limits as I already said to Mike: "do you really have no limits yourself?. do you simply accept anything"? this is first of all very doubtful, and second it would really be arbitrariness. everyone has their likes and dislikes, and that's fine with me you are no better or no worse, just because you happen to like a certain kind of music which I don't like. I am pretty sure that there is a lot of music that I like which you would dislike, be it that you can't stand the sound of a certain instrument or whatever. no-one likes everything

Of course there are things that I don't like ... I never said that I simply accept anything, I even directly objected to that post. Do you really have to resort to such means ... are you that desperate?

I just said that I don't impose such broad and unusual limits as you do. You, as a drummer, reject a valid technique of drumming. I, as a guitarist, would never reject a valid technique of guitar playing. I might not like all techniques equally, but I wouldn't reject a song just because of a certain technique.

I value music over technique.

It is I who reject double bass-drumming on principle, simply because of the fact that anyone can sound good (at least in the ears of a non-drummer) when using two bass drums. Just create a bass-drum thunderstorm, and everyone will go "aw". That does not mean there are no excellent drummers who use double bass-drumming, but it is and remains nothing but a gimmick, and I will stick to that. Call it a quirk if you like, I don't mind.
Except for that "quirk", however, I am very open-minded. By the way: If a musical situation arises where the gimmick of double bass-drumming is adequate I am all for it;, that's what gimmicks are there for. So far I have only heard one example of that though (and sadly have forgotten who it was).
You would be amazed what a good drummer can do with a single bass-drum. The need to use two has never arisen for me, and I think it is not likely that it will. And I will definitely not add another bass-drum to my kit just because I might use it some day. The hi-hat as counterpart to the bass-drum is much more expressive.

Mr ProgFreak wrote: ^ this is simply beyond ridiculous. I'll say only this: It's neither a gimmick nor a quirk. There are rhythmic patterns which you need two bass drums for (or at least two pedals) ... it's as simple as that. Such patterns occur most frequently in metal, but also in Jazz. Many months ago one of you two compared double bass to a "duck quack". IMO that's a very specious analogy ... conduct a poll if you want, but I'm very sure that while most people would agree that the duck quack is a gimmick/quirk, but not double bass drumming. And by "people" I mean musicians ... people who know what they're talking about. BTW: Double bass drummers also use the hi-hat ... just FYI, in case you didn't know.

Nonsense, you can play the same patterns using a hi-hat and a bass drum. You don't need two bass drums for that. They will sound completely different though, and much more interesting with the hi-hat being involved.


Edited by BaldFriede - January 15 2009 at 03:36

BaldFriede wrote: It is I who reject double bass-drumming on principle, simply because of the fact that anyone can sound good (at least in the ears of a non-drummer) when using two bass drums.

I'm a non drummer, but I still think many people can sound like absolute garbage by over doing the double bass thing.
I've also heard a lot of people sound like garbage because they can't use the double bass drums in time.

So no, not everyone sounds good when using double bass drums.
I can tell the difference between when it is being over used and when it is being used in a more creative manner to add in intricate rhythms, so no, we aren't ALL instantly wowed by double bass drums.

BaldJean wrote: Nuke wrote: Well, to go along with the double bass thing, even though it is increasingly popular, you are still going to find plenty of people who don't like the double bass. So you are right that there is plenty of modern usic without it, but I predict it will continue to shrink. My roommate despised double-bass drumming too. The thing was, he was totally stuck in the oldies. I think part of the reason he hated the double bass was because he worshipped john bonham, and john had eschewed the double bass because he drowned out the rest of the band. Of course, metal bands figured out the obvious solution to that one: make the rest of the band louder . Oh, and just to be clear, the double bass isn't limited to prog metal by any means. Lots of times I hear it used very subtly and tastefully in other styles of music. It really seems to have found a place in funk, for example.  To answer your question, I have no limits. I will listen to anything, and I will judge it on its merits, not its flaws. I listen for the artistry, the thought process that went into making the song, the work involved. What I mean to say is that I care about the art, not the medium. If the art is expressed is country or jazz or metal, whether it used the double bass, the mellotron, or protools, it makes no difference to me, as long as it is art. I do have quality control, I won't listen to nickelback, but it has nothing to do with their style, nor the techniques they use. So my answer to you is, that as long as it is creative and thought out, I will like it. The more creative and thought out, the more I will like it. Finally, I can't really defend prog metal. I spend too much time listening to *real* metal to know whether most porg metal is harmonically retrograde or not  nonsense,  of course you have your limits, else your taste is totally arbitrary. saying that you like "all music which is creative and thought out" in essence boils down to no less than saying that you are the final instance to decide which kind of music is creative and thought out, which is plain absurd. there is a lot of creative and thought out music I don't like at all, but at least I grant the artist that their music is still "creative and thought out". what you want to say is that you have no predefined limits. that is true with me too; I did not decide against double-bass drumming without listening to it first..but I fail to see its merits; it sounds overly pompous. as for your prediction that double-bass drumming will become a kind of standard: very doubtful, since it is not a recent invention at all; it has been around for decades and was even used by some early jazz drummers already. it is a current fad because prog-metal is doing comparatively well right now, but fads come and go. anyway, you would be surprised what a drummer who is really worth his salt can do with a single bass drum; you really don't need it

Well,yes, I do not have predefined limits, but I also mean that I do not reject any form of technique or style. I don't care if it's chipmunk vocals over double-bass drumming produced half on protools and half on a dirty 8-track and artificially sped up, if it has merits I will respect it for it's merits. It's fine to say that you don't see the merits in something, but there is more to music that has double bass drumming than the double bass drumming, so it isn't fair to dislike music just because it has double-bass drumming if it has other merits. 

And on to the drumming, double-bass drumming is integral to lots of modern styles. It is nearly impossible to play modern metal without the double bass drum, so the double bass drum is not going away (to be fair, I've seen some single-bass metal drummers, so it is possible). I know that it is possible to drum amazingly with only one bass. I myself am an amateur drummer and I only have one bass pedal, and I'm not even close to having explored all the limits of my set with one bass pedal. We haven't explored all the limits of gregorian chant either, we really don't need harmony.

 There have been some interesting points raised here about what constitutes "open-mindedness"or being "limited" in our musical options,  particularly where this DBD thing comes up.  The consensus opinion seems to be "I like it and if you don't you're closed-minded about it", or "If you don't like it you just haven't heard enough of it or haven't heard so and so play" etc.. 

Edited by Trademark - January 15 2009 at 15:24

Trademark wrote: That particular tune would be a good deal better off if the whole band were sacked and it was done at a slower tempo with just an acoustic guitar and some hand percussion.

 

Henry Plainview wrote: Trademark wrote: That particular tune would be a good deal better off if the whole band were sacked and it was done at a slower tempo with just an acoustic guitar and some hand percussion.   Hahaha, I don't even like metal very much, but you're such a damn hippy. ;-)

I agree with the gist of Trademark's long, well thought out post.  There is nothing wrong in rejecting some genres or even techniques of performing instruments  -even if they may be contemporarily in vogue and therefore shut you off from a lot of music that's at the point sought after.  As I said with that example of deathgrowls, even the so-called open minded crowd have biases they can't and don't want to overcome. It's ok, it's human tendency. Besides, what broader tastes or limits are we speaking of here? It's all relative. Even after rejecting double bass drumming, BaldJean would have still listened to hell lot of music and would continue to do so.  One lifetime is not enough to explore all the great music that's out there, so being blindsided to some parts of the musical ocean is par for the course. 

Also, having a broader or narrower taste does not entail victory or defeat for anyone, there is no victory or defeat in music, you listen to random sounds and they make sense to you and maybe not to somebody else. As you get more experienced with appreciating music, you are able to rationalize to a large extent why you like some sounds and why not some others, but the point is, you still react to it, it arouses emotion within you and that's what it boils down to at the heart of it.  I also don't see much point in attempting to negate this emotional reaction with the aim of seeing merit in music that you are wholly uncomfortable with, you could say that you are opening your mind to different approaches or that you are simply forcing yourself to like it.  My family loves bitter groud preparations and I hate it but I would rather have rice with some vegetable curry than not. So I have learnt to gulp the poison pill just to humour my mother more than anything; I am clear that given a choice I would rather not have to eat it at all.  My approach in music is pretty much the same; maybe I can live with some albums now that I simply did not like right from the word go but I would rather not listen to it anyway.

Trademark wrote:   (well that and everyone being required to agree with Mike no matter what )

Those are the times when I wish that I would have never begun posting here. Every once in a while, someone will come and twist and bend your words ... I wonder why people are doing this. Do you have nothing else to do than to bad mouth people?