Getting estranged from prog

Mr ProgFreak wrote: ^ if they sound completely different, they're not really the same patterns ... rhythmically, yes, but not if you look at the complete picture. The whole point about double bass drumming is that it's the same drum (sound) playing those fast notes. But I'm curious ... how would you change a typical double bass pattern so that it can be played with one bass drum and hi-hat? http://www.myspace.com/sonataarctica Maybe we could use "The Cage" as an example ... it's a textbook example of metal double bass drumming.

Well, for that song you could maybe do really fast rhythm guitar and bass guitar to replace the double bass and then throw in some really cool hi-hat patterns. With a lot of compositional effort, I think you could actually make that one sound slightly better without the double bass. 

BaldJean wrote: Nuke wrote: I have to say that Mr. ProgFreak nailed it on the head when the talked about limits. If you cannot tolerate double-bass drumming, then you cannot tolerate an ever-increasing percentage of modern music. If you cannot tolerate clean production, then you cannot tolerate an ever-increasing percentage of modern music. I've know much older folks that only listen to classical and jazz because they cannot tolerate electric guitars and the like. I mean, they're so gimmicky, right? To truly appreciate any art form, you cannot impose limits. You can't evaluate something for its flaws, you have to evaluate something on it's merits. If you open your mind all the way, you will discover that the music scene today is more exciting than it has ever been in the past.  this would perhaps be true if prog was the only kind of music there is. it is, however, not; there is a lot of other and much more interesting music going on. the clean production does not really bother me at all, but I would rather have a muddy production with interesting musical ideas than a clear production which else is ultimately boring (at least to me). clean production is being valued much too highly these days. as to double-bass drumming: it is simply not true that an ever increasing percentage of modern music has double bass-drumming. you limit yourself to the realm of prog. the so-called "ever increasing percentage of double bass-drumming" is indeed notable there, but it is directly proportional to the ever increasing percentage of prog metal. but there is plenty of modern music out there where double bass-drumming does not occur at all. the music scene is indeed exciting, but prog itself is not. most prog metal is harmonically very retrograde; there are exceptions, but they are few. as to limits as I already said to Mike: "do you really have no limits yourself?. do you simply accept anything"? this is first of all very doubtful, and second it would really be arbitrariness. everyone has their likes and dislikes, and that's fine with me you are no better or no worse, just because you happen to like a certain kind of music which I don't like. I am pretty sure that there is a lot of music that I like which you would dislike, be it that you can't stand the sound of a certain instrument or whatever. no-one likes everything

Well, to go along with the double bass thing, even though it is increasingly popular, you are still going to find plenty of people who don't like the double bass. So you are right that there is plenty of modern usic without it, but I predict it will continue to shrink. My roommate despised double-bass drumming too. The thing was, he was totally stuck in the oldies. I think part of the reason he hated the double bass was because he worshipped john bonham, and john had eschewed the double bass because he drowned out the rest of the band. Of course, metal bands figured out the obvious solution to that one: make the rest of the band louder . Oh, and just to be clear, the double bass isn't limited to prog metal by any means. Lots of times I hear it used very subtly and tastefully in other styles of music. It really seems to have found a place in funk, for example. 

To answer your question, I have no limits. I will listen to anything, and I will judge it on its merits, not its flaws. I listen for the artistry, the thought process that went into making the song, the work involved. What I mean to say is that I care about the art, not the medium. If the art is expressed is country or jazz or metal, whether it used the double bass, the mellotron, or protools, it makes no difference to me, as long as it is art. I do have quality control, I won't listen to nickelback, but it has nothing to do with their style, nor the techniques they use. So my answer to you is, that as long as it is creative and thought out, I will like it. The more creative and thought out, the more I will like it.

Finally, I can't really defend prog metal. I spend too much time listening to *real* metal to know whether most porg metal is harmonically retrograde or not 

The T wrote: Curiously, the genre that has in the last 4 months almost crushed prog (for a while.. it's still my main dish) is extreme metal, and black metal especifically. It has been really a complete obliteration. I finally decided to submerge myself in genres I always loved (death and black, no sh*t metalcore) but never accepted the fact.

Hah hah, exactly the same with me. I went through a metal phase and I decided that prog rock sucked, that it was insincere and weak bullsh*t compared to metal. I would listen to crap like burzum and think there was no prog that could match the sincerity and feeling in it. I pretty much hated everything else during my metal phase, I must have seemed like a jerk