Getting estranged from prog

BaldFriede wrote: One way of discovering new artists is to follow all the collaborations of the artists you know; many of them seek to expand their musical horizon, so you will wind up with lots of new names you have not heard before simply by following all those new connections. The net is ever growing that way, and you land in territory you had no idea you ever would land in. But you also come across other artists by listening to certain radio stations. That way I discovered Rabih Abou-Khalil, for example, I discovered Michel Godard and his many different projects, I discovered Hille Perl and Lee Santana, who are also definitely not prog (some would label them "classical" and couldn't be more wrong), I discovered Gianluigi Trovesi and his many side projects. All these artists just don't happen to fall into prog, and it is very difficult to tell what they really fall into. Do you honestly expect me that I should desperately try to discover artists which are prog? No, I go whichever way I am being carried, and if my path carries me away from prog, that's fine with me. Just because you like double bass-drumming and I don't doesn't make you have a broader horizon, and being a drummer myself I think I have all the right to turn up my nose to double bass-drumming.

I have no expectations at all - you can do whatever you want. I just think that you impose a lot more hard limits on which music you're going to explore (regardless of whether you'd call it prog). And just because you're a drummer doesn't give your opinion against double bass drumming more weight - if anything, it makes it even more peculiar, because you won't find many drummers who would agree with you. Many polls were made here in the forum which confirm that, and if you examine drummer magazines and publications I'm very sure you won't find any which say that the entire technique is ridiculous.

Getting back to the original subject: I think I can understand why you're getting estranged from prog ... especially the modern bands simply use too many of the techniques which you can't tolerate. A lot of modern non-prog music uses them too, so you're left with exploring the realm of "Post Krautrock" or "Post/Minimalistic Classical/World/Independent" by artists who reject modern music/technology. *That* is what I mean by broader horizon - I simply have more to chose from than you, at least it seems so to me.

^ or my website. Or the PA reviews. Let's face it, there are so many sources of information, you can't check out all of them thoroughly. Currently there are more than 850 albums of 2008 in the PF database ...

Mr ProgFreak wrote: BaldFriede wrote: One way of discovering new artists is to follow all the collaborations of the artists you know; many of them seek to expand their musical horizon, so you will wind up with lots of new names you have not heard before simply by following all those new connections. The net is ever growing that way, and you land in territory you had no idea you ever would land in. But you also come across other artists by listening to certain radio stations. That way I discovered Rabih Abou-Khalil, for example, I discovered Michel Godard and his many different projects, I discovered Hille Perl and Lee Santana, who are also definitely not prog (some would label them "classical" and couldn't be more wrong), I discovered Gianluigi Trovesi and his many side projects. All these artists just don't happen to fall into prog, and it is very difficult to tell what they really fall into. Do you honestly expect me that I should desperately try to discover artists which are prog? No, I go whichever way I am being carried, and if my path carries me away from prog, that's fine with me. Just because you like double bass-drumming and I don't doesn't make you have a broader horizon, and being a drummer myself I think I have all the right to turn up my nose to double bass-drumming. I have no expectations at all - you can do whatever you want. I just think that you impose a lot more hard limits on which music you're going to explore (regardless of whether you'd call it prog). And just because you're a drummer doesn't give your opinion against double bass drumming more weight - if anything, it makes it even more peculiar, because you won't find many drummers who would agree with you. Many polls were made here in the forum which confirm that, and if you examine drummer magazines and publications I'm very sure you won't find any which say that the entire technique is ridiculous. Getting back to the original subject: I think I can understand why you're getting estranged from prog ... especially the modern bands simply use too many of the techniques which you can't tolerate. A lot of modern non-prog music uses them too, so you're left with exploring the realm of "Post Krautrock" or "Post/Minimalistic Classical/World/Independent" by artists who reject modern music/technology. *That* is what I mean by broader horizon - I simply have more to chose from than you, at least it seems so to me.

what makes you think Friede and I reject modern music technology? Friede is totally right: you have a way of jumping to conclusions.
let me start this in a different way so you may see what this is all about. you doubtlessly know the classical violin virtuoso Anne-Sophie Mutter. she is doubtlessly a virtuoso, and she is absolutely unmistakable for her tone; you just have to hear a few notes and are able to say "ah, this is Mutter"; even someone who is not so familiar with classical music could probably do it. many music critics, however, criticize exactly that tone, calling it a "mannerism". do those critics who think so have a quirk? or do rather those who like this specific tone have a quirk? I am not answering that, because I think you can't answer that, but is the fact that some people call it a "mannerism" a limitation to their musical experience? hardly.
well, for us double bass-drumming is a mannerism. it is as simple as that. we have both conceded that there may be situations when double bass-drumming is adequate; the way it is generally used, however, it is nothing but a cheap gimmick.. you are, as far as i know; a guitar player, and you probably know a lot of cheap tricks on guitar too which make you sound good to the ears of anyone who does not play this instrument but which only would make you laugh if you heard it; I certainly know some such techniques for the piano. mark that I am not saying that all the drummers who use double-bass drumming use it to sound better than they are; there are certainly many excellent ones among them. but it does not put aside the fact that a double bass-drum thunderstorm will let the jaws of a lot of people who do not play drums drop while someone who is a drummer him/herself would merely shrug. also: if double bass-drumming is really so essential as you put it, why do so many excellent drummers decide to play with a single bass drum only? do they all limit themselves in your opinion, even when they use dozens of other techniques?
to repeat it again: Friede and I are not against the use of double bass-drumming per se. but if it is done all the time it is notorious and like a duck quack on a keyboard. this does not limit our musical experience in the least; liking everything is mere arbitrariness. or are you telling me that you like everything that is done on guitar? I would sincerely doubt that, because that would certainly mean arbitrariness.
anyway, to deduct that you have a broader listening experience just because you like double bass-drumming is simply ridiculous. check yourself: are there really no things in music which you dislike? and if you dislike them, does this make it a quirk of you? nonsense


Edited by BaldJean - January 10 2009 at 05:44

Mr ProgFreak wrote: ^ but how do you filter all the information? I could check out Avestin's thread, Erik's thread, and many other individuals who publish high quality recommendations. At Progfreak.com I try to connect all the information in a form that can be better "digested", but only few people take advantage of it.

you can only listen to so much music. do you listen to every single style of music? hardly, it is simply impossible. you either have good knowledge of certain styles or a superficial one of many. we all have to limit ourselves to certain kinds of music, you as much as I. I don't criticize you for not knowing some of the music I have chosen to listen to. a month has 720 hours; even if you dedicate half of your time to listening to music, and only to new releases, this gives you occasion to listen to approximately 360 releases per month only (let's for the sake of simplicity assumed the average playing time of an album is approximately an hour), and only once, and you will not be able to listen to any of the music you already own, and even this would be only is a small fraction of what is being published monthly.
so indeed, how does one filter? listening to the radio is most important for us; many of the artists we discovered we discovered via radio. others we discovered by what I call "branching out". you like musician A, who on one of his albums plays with musician B, so you decide to listen to the albums of B. B plays with C on one or more of his or her albums, and so on. this can lead you into very interesting musical territory, completely different from anything you have heard before.
and of course the archives offer lots of new suggestions too


Edited by BaldJean - January 10 2009 at 05:36

BaldFriede wrote: Moogtron III wrote: I don't feel estranged from prog.   I do often dislike the modern sound. As the years go by, I tend to listen more and more to the classic bands, and less to the modern bands. As it comes to modern music, I tend to listen more to music outside prog. That's more or less what I meant by "getting estranged to prog". A lot of the new music I listen to is not prog or barely only; Rabih Abou-Khalil for example has been included in the archives, but this is in my opinion debatable, although I love his music, so I don't complain. And I love the trio Hadouk which features Didier malherbe of Gong. or the duo RoRo, again consistng of two prog musicians, Roland Schaeffer of Guru Guru and Roman Bunka of Embryo.  Or the trio Orientacion, consisitng of Bunka on oud, Luis Borda on acoustic guitar and Jost Hecker on cello; we have their only album (so far, but it looks as if it will be remain the only one, since Bunka continues with Borda as a duo). This is the music which interests me now. So I am actually broadening my horizon.

We should probably continue discussion about ProgRadar in the separate thread that I created in the "Get the Word Out" section ... let me just say here that it should work in Opera now. Unfortunately it doesn't work in Chrome - which is not my fault, because what I linked to is not really a web page, but a RSS feed - and Chrome does not currently support them. See the separate thread about a short introduction to RSS ... :-)

BTW: Most of my website should work with Opera, except for the review editor. It's not really my fault though, and I'm not willing to spend hours of programming so that 2% of all my visitors are more happy. If you want to use a free, open source browser: Firefox is the best solution!

I hardly consider myself an expert, but my sense of what has happened with rock music in general (not necessarily just prog) is that most "new" rock bands have 2 or 3 generations of rock bands to be influenced by (or occasionally, to rebel against). The early rock bands were heavily influenced by genres other than rock because the established legacy of rock wasn't in place yet; they created it. the downside to this idea is that it seems like a genre can play itself out, and maybe that's what's happened to rock by this point (after nearly half a century, which really isn't a bad run).

XunknownX wrote: ...what a boring thread...

^Lmao!