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The T 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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 Posted: January 07 2009 at 23:10 |
Yes... cycles.
My whole childhood and early teenage years were exclusively lived with classical music. Then metal and rock arrived and eventually Dream Theater and prog-rock. It dominated for am long time, obliterating all other genres (and my brain, as I was the kind of "prog or nothing - the rest is garbage and the others are idiots" kind of elititst fool.... But then classical music came back and erradicated prog from my life for about 2 years. Prog re-emerged from the ashes and this time it really anihiliated classical music, to the point where I haven't bought any new classical in 2 years. (and only 2 cds in the last 4).
But this time prog-rock didn't dominate exclusively and was completely an open minded affair... Rock and metal and even some more popular forms were free to arrive as i finally grew up... So it wasn't just prog anymore, even though it still dominated the T-waves about 70% of the time.
Curiously, the genre that has in the last 4 months almost crushed prog (for a while.. it's still my main dish) is extreme metal, and black metal especifically. It has been really a complete obliteration. I finally decided to submerge myself in genres I always loved (death and black, no sh*t metalcore) but never accepted the fact. Now I fully embrace all my weird musical facets.
Eventually, though, if I find a prog record in a store i always buy it. It will always be the king, though it ceased to be my one and only. I realized music such as prog can't be good all of the time. I need music that speaks to other areas of my dark mind and heart.
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friso
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 24 2007
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 2506
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Posted: January 08 2009 at 05:16 |
To the one who started this threat:
I feel the same as you.. the modern sound ruins prog! The mystery is gone, the magic isn't anymore. The feeling of people realy playing music. And all this happens in a time were we think we have better recording oppertunities then back in the '70. I realy wonder if all 2000 till now prog will be remembered as much as the '70 prog in about 30 years, say 2030. We will see.
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: January 08 2009 at 05:44 |
Friede: Just as a thought; Could it be possible that you listen to TOO MANY new albums?
What I'm trying to get at is that we have become so accustomed to the old albums we grew up with, that we long for more of the same. Years of repeated listenings to the old familiars create a feeling of warmth and comfort. Naturally, we look for more of the same, and so the frantic searching begins.
The result is that it's possible you are torn between frantic listenings to new albums, searching for an equal feeling of familiarity, and at the same time being prevented from getting that feeling because these new albums come so thick and fast, not one of them has the chance of becoming a favorite. Perhaps because there's just no time to become intimately acquainted with it.
It's a trade-off: Getting excited about new albums, wanting to get to know them, can't do that because there's other new albums, the end feeling is disappointment. Lots of new music, but there's no chance for any of this to stick.
Actually, that's the situation I find myself in at the moment, so it's possible I'm only projecting.
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DamoXt7942
Special Collaborator
Joined: October 15 2008
Location: Okayama, Japan
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 08 2009 at 07:03 |
Consider our feeling and fave should be altered as time goes...
Future days, it's possible you will love a new-artists' album that you could not love before
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Tapfret
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 12 2007
Location: Bryant, Wa
Status: Offline
Points: 8581
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Posted: January 08 2009 at 10:51 |
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I am always looking for something new, so bands that are 100% derivative with no invention of their own have no place for me. Unfortunately, I find that to be the case with many newer bands in the classic prog sub genres (Syn, Eclectic, Neo). But estrangement would be a little harsh. Perhaps I have never enjoyed crossover, electronic and neo enough to feel estranged, as I never enjoyed tham that much in the first place. But their is enough out there to keep me interested for a lifetime(Zeuhl, Avant, Tech/Extreme). As far as other genres, I feel there is enough relation between prog and the other genres I listen to (jazz, classical) that I never stray too terribly far.
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altaeria
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 05 2004
Location: Philadelphia
Status: Offline
Points: 178
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Posted: January 08 2009 at 14:12 |
(Great reply above from npjnpj, by the way)
Actually,
I find that many modern prog bands tend to sustain a constant "vibe" in their material
... which, for me, doesn't work as well as the more-unpredictable methods of the classic bands.
For example:
I really want to like the Mars Volta -- They do many cool quirky things --
but their approach is always IN MY FACE ... and I never get the impression that the tension breaks.
On the other hand, a band like Radiohead,
who focuses on creating atmosphere through interesting texture development, flows along nicely
... but never really shakes me ... and hardly displays any attention-grabbing virtuosity.
I like feeling up and down while listening to an album.
I like fast, slow, and mid-tempo ... maybe all in one song !
I sometimes even like to hear something being played that not many other people can play.
I especially like the POSSIBILITY of
catchy Rock hooks being followed up by melodic Classical themes and Avant Garde Jazz bursts
at any moment.
But that's just me. 
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Kestrel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 18 2008
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: January 08 2009 at 14:30 |
 altaeria wrote:
(Great reply above from npjnpj, by the way)
Actually,
I find that many modern prog bands tend to sustain a constant "vibe" in their material
... which, for me, doesn't work as well as the more-unpredictable methods of the classic bands.
For example:
I really want to like the Mars Volta -- They do many cool quirky things --
but their approach is always IN MY FACE ... and I never get the impression that the tension breaks.
On the other hand, a band like Radiohead,
who focuses on creating atmosphere through interesting texture development, flows along nicely
... but never really shakes me ... and hardly displays any attention-grabbing virtuosity.
I like feeling up and down while listening to an album.
I like fast, slow, and mid-tempo ... maybe all in one song !
I sometimes even like to hear something being played that not many other people can play.
I especially like the POSSIBILITY of
catchy Rock hooks being followed up by melodic Classical themes and Avant Garde Jazz bursts
at any moment.
But that's just me.
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That's a problem I had with the new Cast album. I listened to the first 4 or 5 songs but had to turn it off because it was just so loud and in my face; there didn't seem to be a let up at all. Perhaps this is just a misconception of how it was going (going in and out of paying attention) but I know how you feel.
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
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Posted: January 08 2009 at 15:35 |
I don't feel estranged from prog.
I do often dislike the modern sound. As the years go by, I tend to listen more and more to the classic bands, and less to the modern bands. As it comes to modern music, I tend to listen more to music outside prog.
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Tormato
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 24 2005
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 171
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 03:02 |
Well, I have to say that this is one of the most interesting topics I've found lately in PA, and I identify myself with many of the opinions verted here, but I'm feeling kinda sleepy and lazy to rewind and find the posts I would like to quote to say ¨ I totally agree with you¨´. I will sumarize.
I have never felt estranged from prog in my life, being a prog listener since 1976. The reason is that I can find any tipe of music I feel like listening at any given time under the umbrella of prog, without need to go anywhere else (although I do listen different music genres). I mean, there are days when I feel like classical, and I can play ¨The Nice¨ or ¨Renaissance¨, but other days I'm in the mood for folk and ethnic music, and I can count with ¨Los Jaivas¨, ¨Osibisa¨ or ¨Jethro Tull¨. If I'm feeling Jazzy I have the ¨Mahavishnu Orchestra¨ or ¨Return to Forever¨, and for my metal days, well, you know better than me. I can choose my lyrics in English, Italian, French, German, Spanish, or any language, even Zeuhl. And I can go on and on with examples but I know you've got the idea.
Of course, my love for prog has worked as a door (or a hallway full of doors) to many different kinds of music styles, helping me to become from a ¨rock only¨ consumer into a person that appreciates and collects classical music, jazz, psychedelic, blues, folk, world music, ethnic, tribal, as much as more weird stuff, like all kind of experimental music, but let's be honest, it never satisfies 100% when it doesn't have its share of prog. I mean, I really like all good music, but when it's not polluted with a prog touch, or lacks any rock elements, I always have the feeling that something is missing, I really think, like I said in a post long time ago, that there is no other genre of music that encompases all the other genres. Name a type of music, and chances are that somewhere there's a prog band blending that music into their sound. Regarding the subject of new against classic bands, although in my examples I only mentioned old bands, I love the old bands for being old, as much as I love the new for being new. I have a different frame of mind for old and new. When I adopt a new band -or new to me- as one more of my children, I accept it with their sound, AS IS. Before as before, now as now.
So.....me, estranged from prog?...... nah!  |
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I like Tormato, so shoot me! Every person in the world can't think the same.
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Avantgardehead
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2006
Location: Dublin, OH, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1170
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 06:59 |
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I don't listen to "modern prog" (note that I don't consider post-rock or avant-garde to be prog, just a taste thing). I tried it, didn't work out. The stuff just couldn't compare.
But anyway, I only listen to three prog bands now and they are Genesis, King Crimson, and Gentle Giant. All great bands from '70 to '74. It's really all I need.
I'm too in love with indie right now to really spend much time on prog. Though I'm still open to finding more obscure gems from the 70's!
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http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10261
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 10:38 |
Moogtron III wrote:
I don't feel estranged from prog.
I do often dislike the modern sound. As the years go by, I tend to
listen more and more to the classic bands, and less to the modern
bands. As it comes to modern music, I tend to listen more to music
outside prog. |
That's more or less what I meant by "getting estranged to prog". A lot of the new music I listen to is not prog or barely only; Rabih Abou-Khalil for example has been included in the archives, but this is in my opinion debatable, although I love his music, so I don't complain. And I love the trio Hadouk which features Didier malherbe of Gong. or the duo RoRo, again consistng of two prog musicians, Roland Schaeffer of Guru Guru and Roman Bunka of Embryo. Or the trio Orientacion, consisitng of Bunka on oud, Luis Borda on acoustic guitar and Jost Hecker on cello; we have their only album (so far, but it looks as if it will be remain the only one, since Bunka continues with Borda as a duo). This is the music which interests me now. So I am actually broadening my horizon.
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 11:36 |
I have nothing against reproducing every instrument clearly but that it goes along with a wholly digital sound. You - Baldfriede - bring up an interesting point about live recordings. I have not been fortunate to see prog bands - old or new - but I saw Iron Maiden on their Matter of Life and Death tour and Scorpions on their Humanity tour. I must say the songs from their then newly released albums sounded much better in the concert ambience than in the studio cuts. And in case you are thinking this has to do with the crowd euphoria which can tend to make live performances sometimes seem better than they really are, I must point out that they also played their classics in the concert and I wasn't necessarily satisfied with all their renditions. It may be a little far fetched to ascribe attributes to what made it sound better, but organic may be just the word that describes it - note that AMOLAD is by recent metal recording trends, quite organic - sounding. There's a tendency these days to attempt to magnify a song's appeal with some sort of artificial effects like drastically fading out the sound or increasing the volume though the instruments have not necessarily fallen silent or increased in intensity - done quite transparently in Humanity Hour I. It was done in the 70s too but to a lesser extent and the trend has probably accentuated over the years - the 70s just happen to be the time when prog had its big shout.
70s prog - the classic, popular bands - was considerably more "cryptic" - for want of a better word - than the well known prog bands of today, but well, they probably didn't leave too many avenues to explore for the bands to come so these new bands have sought a new direction. And I have come to realize that unlike in the 70s, a modern prog band being well known is no assurance of their being great, they may just have a noisier fanbase than other bands, that's all. Which just means one has to search harder for gems in new prog...which is exciting for me who am still young with lot many years of music exploration still to me...perhaps tiresome for you at this juncture and less appealing than exploring jazz/classical.  |
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10261
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 12:00 |
rogerthat wrote:
70s prog - the classic, popular bands - was considerably more "cryptic" - for want of a better word - than the well known prog bands of today, but well, they probably didn't leave too many avenues to explore for the bands to come so these new bands have sought a new direction. And I have come to realize that unlike in the 70s, a modern prog band being well known is no assurance of their being great, they may just have a noisier fanbase than other bands, that's all. Which just means one has to search harder for gems in new prog...which is exciting for me who am still young with lot many years of music exploration still to me...perhaps tiresome for you at this juncture and less appealing than exploring jazz/classical. |
And lots of other stuff, especially ethnic music, but also modern so-called "classical" stuff, which, believe me, has very little to do with what people expect when they think of "classical" music.
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17506
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 12:11 |
BaldFriede wrote:
I don't know why, but I am getting more and more estranged from prog. It still has a place in my heart, but the development the music is taking in this genre makes me shy away from it. Or perhaps it is my own development, who knows? |
I think the biggest problem over the years, and I have been at it since the 70's, is the tendency to pigeonhole music and then ... (American bad habit) make it sound the same!
I remember when I was hearing Amon Duul 2 in 1974 ... and thinking ... this is massively experimental, gutsy, far out ... and so progressive that most ears can't handle it. Sure the vocals are strange ... but then, wasn't Dagmar the same thing? Experimentation is just that ... expanding the horizons in any art form ... and when we look at some lists, and the "prog" bands still sound like someone else, not themselves ... one wonder if it is prog at all ...
I don't think it is!
I thought that Guru Guru in those days was a massive progression of the likes of Jimi Hendrix that inspired Ax Gernreich and so many others in Germany ...
I thought that Egberto Gismonti was turning Jazz and Classical music on its ears ... check out "No Caipira" and see if you can handle jazz meets Villa Lobos, meets Stravinsky meets bossa nova ... heck check out his solo guitar stuff ... it's so progressive and out there that no one else can play it!
I thought that Amon Duul 2, Can were so progressive in their rock experimentation that the radio was gonna burst ... heck, we were the only people playing them too! Check that ... I caught Capt Midnight playing AD2 one night the day that Vive La Trance came out ... he played "Mozambique" ...
Next to regular radio ... this is out there.
I have been listening to Live 365 and some other prog outlets ... and you know what my disappointment is? The majority of these folks can only play 4 or 5 minute cuts ... they still can't enjoy "music" ... it has to be compartmentalized and sectioned for you ... and in the end, you will get bored with these ...
End of Prog ... long live prog.
I'm glad personally ... there is no musician out there that plays music because it is "prog" ... you play music because it is the way you like it and want it ... you never called King Crimson progressive (Robert will probably slap you and ask you ... do you ever "hear" the music?) ...
About the quality of artists ... since the 70's the proliferation has gotten much wider. Maybe it was that the visibility of these artists worldwide is now musch better than it was then ... we have things like the Internet and we can pretty much catch anything and see anyone from any country ... and that makes it somewhat harder to distinguish between good music and bad music ... and sometimes folks will justify their liking because of the label on the music ... and that's not fair ...
It's ok to say that you like something personally ... it hits an internal chord ... sometimes you know what that chord is and sometimes you don't ... you just like it ... that's ok ... is it good or bad ... is it progressive or not ... it's immaterial ... it's music ... it's art ... it's someone's heart ... thank them for being kind enough for wanting to touch you and so many others ... that is indeed a gift.
Academic ideas ... are just that ... and there is a validity to it ... labelling the ear of the Beethoven's and Tchaikovsky's and what not makes it easier to understand what the music sensibilities were and what the peculiarities were, which became the definition of that particular period.
Progressive music, was originally used as an "excuse" to justify playing long cuts on radio. Pretty soon, when the new (then) FM waves became commercialized, it got plastered with the same sh*t as the AM waves ... and many folks thought that "better music" by better musicians was more important ... and a progressive label stuck ...
One more thing ... about that label ... there is a lot of music in Europe that is cross cultured ... and it is often depicted as "progressive" when in essence it is just an instrument, or a stylized something that is akin to a different culture ... it was one of the fascinating things ... when in 1968 and 1969, many folks were calling Aphrodite's Child, Magma and so many others ... progressive ... when in essence they were not even close ... they were more classically inspired than progressive in my book ... in their very own way.
Modern example ... Dream Theater ... it's tough not to appreciate musicianship and admire it being played live ... and sometimes I wonder if I just like the musical attacks and incredible strength displayed by it ... not just loudness of sound, but also a quality that is reminiscent of The Who (they played it on an encore with Queensryche btw ... ) in their early days ... it is progressive in a compositional sense ... you're insane if you are going to sit here and learn to play this ... period! But, more than it being progressive, it is a very nice academic and educated (and intelligent) aproach to music ... and saying that it is or is not prog ... is sad indeed.
It's all about music folks ... and the love that we all have for it.
There is no better or worse ... lest you sit here and go laugh at The Portsmouth Symphonia ... and then you might learn that the joke is on you!
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 12:54 |
BaldFriede wrote:
Moogtron III wrote:
I don't feel estranged from prog.
I do often dislike the modern sound. As the years go by, I tend to
listen more and more to the classic bands, and less to the modern
bands. As it comes to modern music, I tend to listen more to music
outside prog. |
That's more or less what I meant by "getting estranged to prog". A lot of the new music I listen to is not prog or barely only; Rabih Abou-Khalil for example has been included in the archives, but this is in my opinion debatable, although I love his music, so I don't complain. And I love the trio Hadouk which features Didier malherbe of Gong. or the duo RoRo, again consistng of two prog musicians, Roland Schaeffer of Guru Guru and Roman Bunka of Embryo. Or the trio Orientacion, consisitng of Bunka on oud, Luis Borda on acoustic guitar and Jost Hecker on cello; we have their only album (so far, but it looks as if it will be remain the only one, since Bunka continues with Borda as a duo). This is the music which interests me now. So I am actually broadening my horizon.
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Is the music really that different? Seems to me like you're simply sticking with your idols. Not that there would be anything wrong with that, but I don't think that it broadens your horizon all that much.
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10261
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 13:07 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
Moogtron III wrote:
I don't feel estranged from prog.
I do often dislike the modern sound. As the years go by, I tend to
listen more and more to the classic bands, and less to the modern
bands. As it comes to modern music, I tend to listen more to music
outside prog. |
That's more or less what I meant by "getting estranged to prog". A lot of the new music I listen to is not prog or barely only; Rabih Abou-Khalil for example has been included in the archives, but this is in my opinion debatable, although I love his music, so I don't complain. And I love the trio Hadouk which features Didier malherbe of Gong. or the duo RoRo, again consistng of two prog musicians, Roland Schaeffer of Guru Guru and Roman Bunka of Embryo. Or the trio Orientacion, consisitng of Bunka on oud, Luis Borda on acoustic guitar and Jost Hecker on cello; we have their only album (so far, but it looks as if it will be remain the only one, since Bunka continues with Borda as a duo). This is the music which interests me now. So I am actually broadening my horizon.
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Is the music really that different? Seems to me like you're simply sticking with your idols. Not that there would be anything wrong with that, but I don't think that it broadens your horizon all that much.
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Is prog metal really that different? Rather not, to be honest, and harmonically most prog metal is very very retro. And yes, I know there are exceptions, but as a rule of thumbs it is quite true, But that just shows how perceptions can differ. You think prog metal is different. Well, so be it then. Also I am not just sticking with my idols; I have discovered lots of music from artists I had not known before. You are jumping to conclusions.
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 14:31 |
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I don't really know what you're talking about there ... I never said that prog metal is "that different" (I wouldn't even know what I should compare it to).
I just think that I'm broadening my horizon more than you do, because I impose fewer "hard" limits (like instruments/sounds or techniques) on what I'm listening to. You may be broadening your horizon, but within a (from my point of view) limited scope.
Edited by Mr ProgFreak - January 09 2009 at 14:32
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10261
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 14:38 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
I don't really know what you're talking about there ... I never said that prog metal is "that different" (I wouldn't even know what I should compare it to).
I just think that I'm broadening my horizon more than you do, because I impose fewer "hard" limits (like instruments/sounds or techniques) on what I'm listening to. You may be broadening your horizon, but within a (from my point of view) limited scope.
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But how can you say that, not knowing what kind of artists I have discovered? As I said, you are jumping to conclusions. You judge without having any idea! I would honestly have expected better from you.
Edited by BaldFriede - January 09 2009 at 14:39
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
Status: Offline
Points: 7826
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 14:56 |
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I somewhat agree that some modern prog sounds organic, but I still listen to prog a lot...
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 15:12 |
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Getting estranged from prog
