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cobb2 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 25 2007
Location: Australia
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 Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:31 |
Jplanet- There are no insults going on here. I thought that's what discussion forums were for- to discuss.
Ivan- pop is a shortening of popular- music that the masses like, purchase and relish.
So discuss on and Merry Christmas to all.
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jplanet
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:33 |
 cobb2 wrote:
Jplanet- There are no insults going on here. I thought that's what discussion forums were for- to discuss.... |
Acknowledgment posted simultaneously as your post...Not only will I not defend New Prog, but I will defend its detractors here to the utter end!
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:37 |
^ There's good and bad in all things - if Radiohead, Mansun or Muse are labelled New Prog (which in some quarters they are) then "All Hail New Prog!" I say 
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What?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:42 |
cobb2 wrote:
Ivan- pop is a shortening of popular- music that the masses like, purchase and relish.
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Since the end of the early 60's POP is considered a specific genre, with an own structure....Or do you believe that if a jazz album swells 20'000,000 copies will cease to be Jazz to become POP?
Or if 10'000,000 persons bought Seven (The clñassical album of Tony Banks) it would become instantly POP?
In the same way if The Lamb would had sold 50'000,000 copies it would never had became POP, because it has a tortally different structure and influences.
POP may have been born as a short term for popular, but since three or four decades, the term has a completely different meaning that covers the conservative evolution of Rock.
If you don't believe Wikipedia or The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians from where the POP definition was taken, you will probably believe a prog artist:
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What is progressive rock ?
"It is music that does progress. It takes an idea and developes it, rather than just repeat it. Pop songs are about repetition and riffs and simplicity. Progressive music takes a riff, turns it inside out, plays it upside down and the other way around, and explores its potential."
Keith Emerson |
He clearly bases his definition of Progressive Rock in it's differences with POP, so it's obvious for almost anybody.
Merry Christmas also. 
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 08 2008 at 18:49
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jplanet
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:43 |
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I was wondering if Radiohead and Muse would count -- I suppose they are, given the definition...
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topofsm
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 17 2008
Location: Arizona, USA
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Points: 1698
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:46 |
Well, by defenition Country, Metal, Hip-Hop, Alternative, R&B, Prog, Blues, and Reggae are all pop music. Then there's classical and traditional music...
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:46 |
Dean wrote:
^ There's good and bad in all things - if Radiohead, Mansun or Muse are labelled New Prog (which in some quarters they are) then "All Hail New Prog!" I say |
amen ...beats the hell out of the regressive sh*t any day... been there ...heard that.. done better.. by better groups.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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cobb2
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 25 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 415
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:50 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
cobb2 wrote:
Ivan- pop is a shortening of popular- music that the masses like, purchase and relish.
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Since the end of the early 60's POP is considered a specific genre, with an own structure....Or do you believe that if a jazz album swells 20'000,000 copies will cease to be Jazz to become POP?
Or if 10'000,000 persons bought Seven (The clñassical album of Tony Banks) it would become instantly POP?
In the same way if The Lamb would had sold 50'000,000 copies it would never had became POP, because it has a tortally different structure and influences.
POP may have been born as a short term for popular, but since three or four decades, the term has a completely different meaning that covers the conservative evolution of Rock.
Merry Christmas also.
Iván
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No Ivan- it would not become pop it would be popular.
Anyway, I am just stirring the pot here. I agree entirely that pop is based on certain compositional rules. Rules that I find uneventful and boring- how many times can you listen to a I IV V progression.
But there are loads of examples where prog has been popular- that is all.
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:57 |
cobb2 wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
cobb2 wrote:
Ivan- pop is a shortening of popular- music that the masses like, purchase and relish.
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Since the end of the early 60's POP is considered a specific genre, with an own structure....Or do you believe that if a jazz album swells 20'000,000 copies will cease to be Jazz to become POP?
Or if 10'000,000 persons bought Seven (The clñassical album of Tony Banks) it would become instantly POP?
In the same way if The Lamb would had sold 50'000,000 copies it would never had became POP, because it has a tortally different structure and influences.
POP may have been born as a short term for popular, but since three or four decades, the term has a completely different meaning that covers the conservative evolution of Rock.
Merry Christmas also.
Iván
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No Ivan- it would not become pop it would be popular.
Anyway, I am just stirring the pot here. I agree entirely that pop is based on certain compositional rules. Rules that I find uneventful and boring- how many times can you listen to a I IV V progression.
But there are loads of examples where prog has been popular- that is all. |
and when you have pop songs...err... the worst dirges of pop music to some... LOVE songs done in "5/4, then 4/4, to 7/8 and ending in 5/8 you have .. prog pop heaven. 
Edited by micky - December 08 2008 at 18:58
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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valravennz
Forum Senior Member
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:01 |
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Pop = New Prog? Maybe if relating it to such groups as Radiohead and Muse for example. But can we really include such genres as Rap/Hip Hop, R n B, Country and Reggae and straight out Pop eg: "I Kissed A Girl...", "I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus" etc. I am prepared to consider the merits of Alternative and Roots but the other genres - Heck no! What is progressive about them???
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"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence"
- Robert Fripp
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:02 |
cobb2 wrote:
No Ivan- it would not become pop it would be popular |
 In the same way Prog would become Popular and not POP
cobb2 wrote:
Anyway, I am just stirring the pot here. I agree entirely that pop is based on certain compositional rules. Rules that I find uneventful and boring- how many times can you listen to a I IV V progression. |
I agree, but MOST POP is even less interesting than the classic I-IV-V Progression of Rock & Roll, because they isnsit in the boring formula of a catchy chorus and predicatble verse..
cobb2 wrote:
But there are loads of examples where prog has been popular- that is all. |
Of course, if you seen Yes at QPR, is amazing the number of fans they had in 1974 or Kansas and of course Pink Floyd, they were Popular denying it would be silly, but they appeared partly as a reaction to POP, this musicians wanted to do something transcendental, that most POP artists don't care about.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 08 2008 at 19:03
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
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Joined: September 30 2006
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:04 |
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if the question is "will Prog become popular?", sure there's always a chance that prog rock could see some big chart success as it did in the early 70s (Passion Play #1 on US charts).. but if the question is will Pop become Prog, then no, I don't see that happening ..pop is what it is in all its occasional glory, and will retain its traits of brevity, digestibility, and melodic appeal
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micky
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:05 |
valravennz wrote:
Pop = New Prog? Maybe if relating it to such groups as Radiohead and Muse for example. But can we really include such genres as Rap/Hip Hop, R n B, Country and Reggae and straight out Pop eg: "I Kissed A Girl...", "I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus" etc. I am prepared to consider the merits of Alternative and Roots but the other genres - Heck no! What is progressive about them??? |
rock... R n B... country.... just what IS the difference really... preference perhaps?... does it have to ROCK to be prog. This site has answered that definitively...answered it in the negative.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Proggg
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 19 2008
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Points: 40
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:24 |
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Pop music becoming prog = Wishful thinking/utter delusion
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A windstorm dropped a bird from the sky
It fell to the ground and it's wings broke and died
But when the time got by, back to sky it flied cause the wings healed in time and the bird was I-Wintersun
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:26 |
Maybe I'm crazy, but didn't pop music (i.e., rock) become prog once already? No reason it couldn't happen again.
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cobb2
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 25 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 415
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:34 |
Atavachron wrote:
if the question is "will Prog become popular?", sure there's always a chance that prog rock could see some big chart success as it did in the early 70s (Passion Play #1 on US charts).. but if the question is will Pop become Prog, then no, I don't see that happening ..pop is what it is in all its occasional glory, and will retain its traits of brevity, digestibility, and melodic appeal
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Very well put... Sums up the argument nicely.
Ivan- I've got Yes at QPR. And this is after Tales where they fell from grace with the music rags.. and still popular. In my opinion it could have been their greatest historical recording- except for the extremely bad mixing. Back on topic. That quote of Emersons you put up sums up why prog will never be popular- who in the world wants to invest time and energy trying to understand something that makes absolutely no sense! And that is your average "Turn on the radio while I do the housework, dear" listener.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:44 |
cobb2 wrote:
Ivan- I've got Yes at QPR. And this is after Tales where they fell from grace with the music rags.. and still popular. In my opinion it could have been their greatest historical recording- except for the extremely bad mixing. |
Excellent tape, Patrick Moraz is amazing, butt really, the mixing is terrible.
cobb2 wrote:
Back on topic. That quote of Emersons you put up sums up why prog will never be popular- who in the world wants to invest time and energy trying to understand something that makes absolutely no sense! And that is your average "Turn on the radio while I do the housework, dear" listener. |
Agree with you except for one thing,Prog makes sense, the problem is people want their music alredy chewed so they don't have to put any effort of concentration.
The average Joe will normally never like Prog, but not his fault, the record industry manipulates the music, radios and magazines so only what is profitable for them reaches the top, and Prog is not preciselty their best investmen.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 08 2008 at 19:45
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valravennz
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: March 20 2005
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 2546
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:45 |
micky wrote:
valravennz wrote:
Pop = New Prog? Maybe if relating it to such groups as Radiohead and Muse for example. But can we really include such genres as Rap/Hip Hop, R n B, Country and Reggae and straight out Pop eg: "I Kissed A Girl...", "I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus" etc. I am prepared to consider the merits of Alternative and Roots but the other genres - Heck no! What is progressive about them??? |
rock... R n B... country.... just what IS the difference really... preference perhaps?... does it have to ROCK to be prog. This site has answered that definitively...answered it in the negative.
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Micky - No - it does not have to ROCK to be prog. Perhaps I am being too simplistic in my understanding of what should not be regarded as prog music. I always understood Prog music to contain some elements of complexity such as "odd" time signatures that is not seen in the usual Pop composition. I don't want to get too far out of my depth here, but I think most of what is regarded as Pop music is too simple a music form to be regarded as prog music as I understand it. 
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"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence"
- Robert Fripp
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
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Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:50 |
micky wrote:
valravennz wrote:
Pop = New Prog? Maybe if relating it to such groups as Radiohead and Muse for example. But can we really include such genres as Rap/Hip Hop, R n B, Country and Reggae and straight out Pop eg: "I Kissed A Girl...", "I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus" etc. I am prepared to consider the merits of Alternative and Roots but the other genres - Heck no! What is progressive about them??? |
rock... R n B... country.... just what IS the difference really... preference perhaps?... does it have to ROCK to be prog. This site has answered that definitively...answered it in the negative.
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We might want to drop the "rock" from "your ultimate prog rock resource" in the masthead. I'd prefer it to read "your ultimate progressive music resource". Then we could put that one to bed. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have to let all of the riff-raff into the room. But I applaud the site for not being too narrow of mind. I've seen a lot of controversial additions since I've joined and I remain in favor of a bigger tent when it comes to what is included. Still there will be endless battles here regarding where the line is drawn.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:56 |
The musical traits that describe Prog are not unique to the genre, nor are they cast in stone. Prog frequently "borrows" from other genres and in return other genres employ some of the developments in musical styles that Prog pioneered.
on the plus side -
Pop evolves - it always has done - not every band, but a fair number have progressed and a few have even crossed-over into Prog - (this is a "good thing") - but even those bands and artists who don't make the complete transition make worthwhile music that improves what "Pop"
on the negative side -
Pop for one has proven time and time again that it can adopt and adapt anything - take the current trend of Pop Classical like Vanessa Mae, Bond and Il Divo - it's a hideous idea with horrendous results - yet still they sell like hot cakes - once that's fallen out of vogue they'll turn their attention to another genre to plunder ... now imagine Nous Sommes du Soleil trimmed to a nice radio friendly, accessible 3 minutes and given a good solid repetitive 4/4 beat - bet you're glad Simon Cowell isn't a Prog fan now...
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Will pop music become prog?
