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Chris S View Drop Down
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Points: 7028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 17:50
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Thanks, Chris, I actually flip-flopped too much with that post, but I don't think it often important or helpful to offer more than one side of an argument when discussing a potential addition (in fact, I devalued his contribution too much partially in order to be respectful of those who see it another way).  Reading back through the thread, I think that Dean provided a compelling case in a non-admin capacity.  Thank goodness that I don't have to wear different hats (the only hat I ever wear is a toque when I'm skiing, though my rain jacket has a hood.  Hats cramp my hair-style).  Dean, sorry for snipping your post, but the whole thing can be read on page two.

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

[snip]....
Hendrix was part of the UK Psychedelic scene of 67/68 and toured with Pink Floyd, The Move and Soft Machine - members of all three bands have open spoken of the influence of Hendrix - I think his contribution to the Psyche-scene is immeasurable (I'm sure Eetu and the Psyche team would probably agree with that) and goes beyond technique and playing style In terms of composition and structure "Electric Ladyland" is a Proto-Prog Psyche album.
 
True.....some very compelling points here too and actually looking up at the controversial comment additions, I was surprised to see so fewThumbs Up
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 18:19
Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:



The site does say it wants to be the ultimate progressive rock site, as far as I can see, the only way to do that is to include everything progressive rock, even if it means letting in a bit of circumstantial non-prog. The rest of the album is as solid a ground for inclusion as, say, Moving Pictures, including all sorts of sonic experiments, new sounds, challenging production.

As I understand policy, one 'prog' album merits inclusion.  
 
I admit Hendrix has all sort of of experimental guitar techniques, but that doesn't make it Prog,
 
REM, Dylan, OMD, etc, all had experimental music, but that didn't made them Prog.
 
I disagree with including non prog as you say, even if it's circumstantial, because in that moment we loose credibility.

BTW: Not even the most hardcore fan of Hendrix could say that his Blues/Funk/Pyche/Soul is Prog, not remotely.

Isn't guitar technique musical? In particular, how do you distinguish something like the 'technique' of the harpsichord-like sound of Burning of the Midnight Lamp from its composition. One is key to the other... they can't always be separated.

The rules are there:
 
Quote We specify the word MUSICAL because simple performance of a determined instrument in a Prog or mainstream band is not justification enough to include an artist, no matter how virtuoso he/she may be, Prog Archives has to evaluate their compositional work because the music is what determines the characteristics of a band or an artist.

http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=38

More clear than water, we're talking about composition, not performance.
 
 
I don't follow the logic here. Having recorded or played previously doesn't make you impervious to influence. Equally, having your own style doesn't make you impervious to influence.
 
It's at least very hard to be influenced by a coetaneous or later musician, a posterior artist can be influenced by a previous one, but a coetaneous or a previous not vice versa.
 
 
Is Howe's guitar on Close To The Edge 'progressive rock' because of the composition, or because of the tone? I'd say that the tone/'technique'/style was just as important a factor as the composition. I think the headmen of the psych prog team have pretty much consistently called him a major influence on that subgenre.
Close to he edge is Prog because Anderson Beruford, Wakeman, Howe and Squire play Progressive Rock, not because Steve's guitar alone.
 
If Steve plays a Prog song with his guitar, that will be Prog, if he plays Rap, no matter it's Steve Howe, it will be Rap, despite his technique, maybe better Rap, buut not more
 
Iván
 
 
            
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 18:26
^ Ivan, you're quoting the Prog Related definiton - that proviso does not apply to Proto-Prog
What?
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 18:31
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Not important at all, M@X said clearly no Metallica, Administrators said no, but Metallica is here because people insisted and Mike started a 20 pages thread.

 
Just a point... I don't care for the Hendrix thing and I guess other people will make the better decision. About Metallica, I hope it can be clear:
 
MAX SAID NO.
 
ANOTHER MEMBER NOT NAMED MIKE (NOT MIKEENREGALIA) STARTED A THREAD ABOUT THEM.
 
THE THREAD REACHED ALMOST 40 PAGES.
 
THERE WERE ARGUMENTS. SORRY IF YOURS DIDN'T WIN IVAN.
 
MAX THEN SAID "YES". HE EVEN CONGRATULATED ME FOR THE BIOGRAPHY. SO STOP SAYING THAT WE ADDED METALLICA BECAUSE WE JUST "WANTED TO". We didn't just ignore MAX decisions. He APPROVED. THE SITE OWNER SAID YES
 
Sorry for the caps, but your style, in this case, fits my point perfectly Ivan. With all respect.
 
 
T


Edited by The T - November 30 2008 at 18:45
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Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 18:46
What The T said, I shall +1 it.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 19:04
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

^ Ivan, you're quoting the Prog Related definiton - that proviso does not apply to Proto-Prog
 
Dean,I know that. I wrote both definitions, and I felt unnecessary to repeat in Proto Prog what was already said in Prog related, because I believe we are people that act with logic.
 
That phrase is talking about the INCLUSION OF A BAND IN PROGARCHIVES, this rule is applied to every sub-genre, we only felt it was necessary to reinforce it in the specific case of Prog Related.
 
Or do you believe we will act to Symphonic any good Keyboardist?????????
 
This is a Progressive Rock site, not a performance site
 
If for PR is necesary to make Prog compositions, for more reason itr's necessary in every other sub-genre, simple logic.
 
Now to T who talks wiothout checking what he said.
 
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Not important at all, M@X said clearly no Metallica, Administrators said no, but Metallica is here because people insisted and Mike started a 20 pages thread.

 
Just a point... I don't care for the Hendrix thing and I guess other people will make the better decision. About Metallica, I hope it can be clear:
 
MAX SAID NO.  YES M@x SAID NO!!!!!!!!!!!
 
ANOTHER MEMBER NOT NAMED MIKE (NOT MIKEENREGALIA) STARTED A THREAD ABOUT THEM.
 
THE THREAD REACHED ALMOST 40 PAGES.
 
THERE WERE ARGUMENTS. SORRY IF YOURS DIDN'T WIN IVAN.
 
MAX THEN SAID "YES". HE EVEN CONGRATULATED ME FOR THE BIOGRAPHY. SO STOP SAYING THAT WE ADDED METALLICA BECAUSE WE JUST "WANTED TO". We didn't just ignore MAX decisions. He APPROVED. THE SITE OWNER SAID YES
 
FALSE, HE LATER CHANGED HIS MIND.
 
Sorry for the caps, but your style, in this case, fits my point perfectly Ivan. With all respect.
 
 
T
 
T, M@X had specifically rejected Metallica, he changed his mind after several threads and polls, you want a prove?:
 
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Posts: 11872 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2008 at 08:34
Just a reminder that M@x has said no to Metallica being added at all.
 
Is this enough for you T???????????????????
 
So T, better take down your caps, because what I said is 100% true.
 
Better learn that i always support what I say.
 
Rest my case.
 
Ivñan


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 30 2008 at 19:10
            
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 19:12
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

FALSE, HE LATER CHANGED HIS MIND. You have said it yourself Ivan. There's no need for more. HE CHANGED HIS MIND. HE. M@X. THE SITE OWNER.
 
 
I don't need proofs Ivan. I never said you lied. I even said that Max originally said no.
 
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 
MAX SAID NO.
 
 
Is this enough for you T???????????????????
 
So T, better take down your caps, because what I said is 100% true. I never said you lied Ivan. I just want to make it CLEAR for the 3487340938403948-2 time that the addition was done WITH MAX'S APPROVAL.
 
Better learn that i always support what I say. I know it Ivan.  I wouldn't pick a random logic fight with you. I just need to make clarifications about an addition that cost me time and effort. 
 
Rest my case. There's no case here. Just a point made by me about a side issue here.  
 
Ivñan Teo


Edited by The T - November 30 2008 at 19:14
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 19:24

T, your post clearly implied I lied, you even made capital letters size 10 to enhance your claims

I know I'm stubborn, I know I'm a Prog purist....But I never lie and I always have support to what I say.

BTW: To prove that, I will say that yes, Mike didn't started THAT thread, but he was the most active supporter and started another one almost simultaneously:
 
Quote
 
 
 
I have an excellent memory, but not so good to remember 1,000 threads literally, specially two started almost simultaneously about the same issue.
 
You see T, I always support what I say.:
 
1.- M@X said no to Metallica
2.- Many threads were started
3.- One that reached 40 pages
4.- Siumultaneeously Mike started another thread
5.- M@X changed his mind.
 
If you look at my reply to Olav, you will see that this is my point, no matter who says no, people will keep insisting.
 
Quote
There will never be an end to this, because even if M@X decides no, people will insist
Makes it much easier if we then at a future point in time can say that he's been evaluated - I'm kinda guessing that there will be a no in this case. What's important is that he'd then have been subject to an evaluation :-)
 
Not important at all, M@X said clearly no Metallica, Administrators said no, but Metallica is here because people insisted and Mike started a 20 pages thread.
 
That was precisely my point, even when M@X said NO, people insisted.
 
So, before correcting me, please read all the post.
 
Thanks
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 30 2008 at 19:30
            
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 19:41
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

T, your post clearly implied i was lied Never. I don't know where you read that I implied you lied. If it's about the Mike thing, I always knew it was a confussion... maybe one that helped your point, though, as Mike was a prog-metalo team member at that time. It has more impact to say "mike started the thread" than "Member X who nobody knows about started the thread".

I know I'm stubborn, I know I'm a Prog purist....But I never lie and I always have support to what I say.

BTW: To prove that, I will say that yes, Mike didn't started THAT thread, but he was the most active supporter and started another one almost simmyultaneously.: Yes and no. The most active supporter was Certf1ed alongside Mike and HughesJb4 and then me. And David and Logan and many others contributed 40 pages as well. It was a thread that in some way or the other touched everybody. On the NO said Alberto Munoz (then Zapreth) was the most active member.
 
Metallica: Progressiveness Distribution  This was an UNRELATED thread. Mike started this one for HIS website (we know how he loves to promote and enhance his website) asking us to rate Metallica in his website.
y MikeEnRegalia, September 08 2008 at 18:44
 
 
 
You see T, I always support what i say, maybe I will confuse one theread with another but the fact is:
 1.- MX said no to Metallica True
2.- Many threads were started Over time. The one that changed it all WAS NOT started by any of the most active supporters. Actually, in my first posts, I even said I was not going to participate as I though it was a lost cause. Check the evidence.
3.- One that reached 40 pagesWith arguments, discussions, and some poor points, as always.
4.- Siumultaneeously Mike started another thread Let's ask Mike why he started it. But yes, he did. For his website.  
5.- MX changed his mind. Which is my whole point. Metallica were added because THE SITE OWNER changed his mind. Maybe you're afraid that if people keep pushing for an addition -say, Hendrix- then M@x will change his mind again. He will do what he wants to do. It's his website.
 
If you look at my reply to Olave, you will see that this is my point, no matter who says no, people will keep insisting. I'm only concerned in the continuous references to the Metallica addition.
 
Quote
There will never be an end to this, because even if M@X decides no, people will insist  And it's up to Max to change his mind or not. He's a grown man after all. We don't have to be "protecting him from maybe changing his mind again" (my words, not yours, but interpreting the idea).
Makes it much easier if we then at a future point in time can say that he's been evaluated - I'm kinda guessing that there will be a no in this case. What's important is that he'd then have been subject to an evaluation :-)
 
Not important at all, M@X said clearly no Metallica, Administrators said no, but Metallica is here because people insisted and Mike started a 20 pages thread.
 
That was precisely my point, even when M@X said NO, people insisted. Again, yes they did. And he changed his mind. Why CAN'T PEOPLE change his minds?
 
So, before correcting me,. read all the post. I did. I love to read your points. They are some of the better made in the whole website. This time, though, I felt some clarifications were needed.  
 
Thanks
 
Iván Teo
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 19:45
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

MAX THEN SAID "YES". HE EVEN CONGRATULATED ME FOR THE BIOGRAPHY. SO STOP SAYING THAT WE ADDED METALLICA BECAUSE WE JUST "WANTED TO". We didn't just ignore MAX decisions. He APPROVED. THE SITE OWNER SAID YES
 
Sorry for the caps, but your style, in this case, fits my point perfectly Ivan. With all respect.
 
 
T
 
If this is what you think implies that you lied, you're wrong Ivan. I'm just interpreting your words and continous references about the Metallica addition as a way of saying that "we added metallica because we just wanted to".  It was an addition that fulfilled all requirements and even more and I'm tired of seeing it mentioned as an example of the danger of insisting. 
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 19:55
Originally posted by T T wrote:

 
"SO STOP SAYING THAT WE ADDED METALLICA BECAUSE WE JUST "WANTED TO".
 
 
T...can you tell me when I said this??????  Please do it...If you can.
 
YOU ARE PLACING WORDS IN MY MOUTH and trying to fix your mistake with a lot of fforced arguments.
 
No matter how many explanations you give, no matter how many times you say Mike made that thread to boost his site, you  and all the fotrum know that  Mike started the thread to suport Metallica.
 
But Metallica is here, nobody can do a thing, even if we start 100 threads askingg to  remove Metallica, things won't change, so stop all this, I said something that i supported with quotes and facts, you made a scandal  ansd placed words in my mouth I never said.
 
Enough about Metallica.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 30 2008 at 19:57
            
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 19:56
THIS IS AN EVEN BIGGER FONT!!! Shocked
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 19:58
Yes, ridiculous, I agree
 
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 19:58
Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:

THIS IS AN EVEN BIGGER FONT!!! Shocked
 
Guess this size is better if we want to win any arguments around here... LOL
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 20:03
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by T T wrote:

 
"SO STOP SAYING THAT WE ADDED METALLICA BECAUSE WE JUST "WANTED TO".
 
 
This thread isn't even about Metallica! Confused But I had to make the point.
 
T...can you tell me when I said this??????  Please do it...If you can. You never said it. I told you, it's implied.  Just like you read implications in my word, I read them in yours. Sorry, I do that too.
 
YOU ARE PLACING WORDS IN MY MOUTH and trying to fix your mistake with a lot of fforced arguments. Ok. You didn't say that. I can give you that Ivan. 
 
No matter how many explanations you give, no matter how many times you say Mike made that thread to boost his site, you  and all the fotrum know that  Mike started the thread to suport Metallica. Now YOU are putting words (or better, intentions) on Mike's actions. Why can you do this and I can't? Do you know for a FACT that he created that thread to support Metallica? 
 
But Metallica is here, nobody can do a thing, even if we start 100 threads askingg to  remove Metallica, things won't change, so stop all this, I said something that i supported with quotes and facts, you made a scandal  ansd placed words in my mouth I never said. If I "made a scandal" it's because I'm DAMN TIRED of people mentioning an addition that was approved by THE SITE OWNER. And that went through a LOT of discussion before ever happening. 
 
Enough about Metallica. With that I agree.
 
Iván T
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 20:05
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 
Guess this size is better if we want to win any arguments around here... LOL
 
No T, nobody wins or loose an argument shouting and using large fonts with non truth phrases,.
 
You make a point with arguments, quotes and facts.
 
I can say that Eminem is a prog artist in 100 size font. and won't be truth.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 30 2008 at 20:08
            
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 20:06
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

]
 
I can say thatEminem is a progfg artiost in 100 size font. and won't be truth.
 
 
No it won't.... But some people will start believing it..LOL The lost art of propaganda... LOL


Edited by The T - November 30 2008 at 20:07
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 20:09
^^^ Now I understand why you used so big font. LOL
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 30 2008 at 20:11
            
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Points: 1818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 20:45

Man , the only way to solve this issue about Hendrix is to ask the greats in prog like Fripp , Howe , Hackett or Gilmour. If they say how Hendrix influenced them then is more than clear that he is prog.

Vote The Rolling Stones for Prog Related!!!!LOL
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Hello everyone,

I'm fairly new here--young too, so I doubt this post will really be noticed, BUT...

I know various artists (Metallica, Radiohead, etc.) have stirred up a bit of controversy here, and I appreciate all the people who are making valid points on both sides, but why does this need to turn into attacks, things that have nothing to do with music at all. We do not need to accuse people of being liars or being "new" and inexperienced. This is a music community, and we are supposed to come together to share our musical tastes, to discuss and disagree on music styles and techniques, to recommend music that is important to us.

I love Jimi Hendrix! He's an amazing guitarist and influenced countless musicians. But it doesn't matter to me whether he gets into the archives or not. Him being a member of the archives doesn't increase his greatness. He was never renowned as the greatest prog guitarist of the last century. He's just an amazing musician. His spot in the archives is an interesting topic, and as I said, it's nice that people are making arguments for why he should and shouldn't be a member of the archives, but frankly, does it even matter?

Should we really let another musician's spot in the archives get between fellow prog-lovers? We are a special community. There are very few places where music listeners who enjoy a very lovely and unique style of music can come together to share their love of the music. This is an amazing place.
 
-Noah
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