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Hendrix?

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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53709
Printed Date: December 02 2024 at 02:52
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Topic: Hendrix?

Posted By: ProgBagel
Subject: Hendrix?
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 21:47

I have seen topics of him around here before, but I can't find them with the darn search function, and I never saw the final verdict.

Anyway, why isn't he listed here on the archives?

I know just being influential alone isn't enough to get an artist here...but he was a heavy component in the development of Psychedelic music and among other genres just developing at the time. His stuff was also pretty progressive at the time, with the sounds. He also has some really lengthy tracks that were also unconventional at the time, like 'Voodo Chile' from Electric Ladyland.

Just wondering what others think.

Replies:

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 21:56

I recall a rather lengthy discussion on him a little over a year ago, and I believe the final verdict/vote was No (it was a poll I believe) ..Hendrix didn't often veer far from his heavy blues/psych roots, though certainly releases as Axis and Ladyland flirted with a progressive approach ..though he had hinted at a new prog/art direction (he was a big fan of early proggers Touch, plus the HELP project, etc.) , he died before producing any of this work, and did not demonstrably influence any of the artists in the prog movement, as most of them were moving away from what Hendrix was doing, so Proto or Prog Related wouldn't fit him either

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 22:07

there were several:

1.-

Poll Question: Does the Jimi Hendrix Experience belong here?

Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics

Yes 22 [26.19%]

No 62 [73.81%]

This topic is closed, no new votes accepted

2.-
< id=frmPoll name=frmPoll =poll_cast_vote.asp method=post>

Poll Question: Hendrix anyone?

Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics

Purple Ayes! 6 [33.33%]

Purple Nays! 12 [66.67%]

This topic is closed, no new votes accepted
< =poll_cast_vote.asp method=post>

< =poll_cast_vote.asp method=post>
3.-

Poll Question: It can be considered Prog?

Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics

Yes (specified because) 5 [19.23%]

No (specified because) 21 [80.77%]

This topic is closed, no new votes accepted

And many more with similar numbers.

Iván

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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 22:15

You have to set the search parameters to any date (the default is the last six months), and I have found many topics on his inclusion (this is the 9th Hendrix topic in this forum alone) forum_posts.asp?TID=40447&KW=Hendrix - . Here's one of the more epic ones (with a poll): http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2720 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2720

I must admit that I have a soft-spot for Hendrix in the archives, and have shown support for his inclusion, but I also have my reservations. I will speak more later.

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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 22:44

Logan wrote:

Here's one of the more epic ones (with a poll): http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2720 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2720
.

Help needed in studio building

Iván

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Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 23:08

LOL...I just kept my mouth closed about it. Shhhh!

Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 23:58

They are right , steely dan is way proggier

Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 00:12

Oh, LOL, that was careless of me. In deleting the keyword search from the URL (to avoid highlights in the thread), I also deleted the last number of the topic ID... Instead of 2720, it should be 27205. http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27205 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27205

Anyway, it's an interesting read.

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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 00:15

^ damn, I was hoping it was an attempt at bizarre humor

Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 00:25

There is something I 've started to wonder. If the HELP project was completed and they released an album , just a single album or an EP? Would Hendrix be in the Archives?

I think he would because many solo artists with no prog material are included in crossover prog or prog related.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 01:42

crimson87 wrote:

There is something I 've started to wonder. If the HELP project was completed and they released an album , just a single album or an EP? Would Hendrix be in the Archives?

I think he would because many solo artists with no prog material are included in crossover prog or prog related.

HELP would without any doubt, but Hendrix?

Not necesarilly, if not remember

Genesis and Collins.

Aphrodite's Child and Demis Roussos

Par Lindh Project and Par Lindh

Genesis and Mike and the Mechanics

But again.........HELP didn't existed, so....we can only guess.

Iván

-------------

Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 02:23

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

crimson87 wrote:

There is something I 've started to wonder. If the HELP project was completed and they released an album , just a single album or an EP? Would Hendrix be in the Archives?

I think he would because many solo artists with no prog material are included in crossover prog or prog related.

HELP would without any doubt, but Hendrix?

Not necesarilly, if not remember

Genesis and Collins.

Aphrodite's Child and Demis Roussos

Par Lindh Project and Par Lindh

Genesis and Mike and the Mechanics

But again.........HELP didn't existed, so....we can only guess.

Iván

ah but yes nearly all the above are indeed debateable points Ivan as would be Hendrix

Still let's rather not go there right now....this is after all a Hendrix thread.

-------------
Music - The Sound Librarian

...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]

Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 09:32

Here's my two cents. Compared to Journey (for example) Jimi was as progressive as an artist can get. He should be in here.

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"Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain

Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 09:39

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

crimson87 wrote:

There is something I 've started to wonder. If the HELP project was completed and they released an album , just a single album or an EP? Would Hendrix be in the Archives?

I think he would because many solo artists with no prog material are included in crossover prog or prog related.

HELP would without any doubt, but Hendrix?

Not necesarilly, if not remember

Genesis and Collins.

Aphrodite's Child and Demis Roussos

Par Lindh Project and Par Lindh

Genesis and Mike and the Mechanics

But again.........HELP didn't existed, so....we can only guess.

Iván

But I think there is an image of what's prog and what not. How could you be so sure that HELP would be included? Probably because Hendrix would get enough prog credentials for being with ELP in a band.

1966 Are you experienced? That's the wildest progression rock and roll ever got. Remember that a year before there was HELP! by the beatles and a year after Third Stone from the Sun.

If that's not progressing I just don't know what may be.

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 10:01

Well, even as rejected as he's been around here, you can still enjoy his music all the same. I really do feel that if he hadn't died, when he did, he would have moved musically in a more jazz/rock-fusion direction. If I were king, I'd stick him in proto.

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 11:46

crimson87 wrote:

1966 Are you experienced? That's the wildest progression rock and roll ever got. Remember that a year before there was HELP! by the beatles and a year after Third Stone from the Sun.

If that's not progressing I just don't know what may be.

Again, progression, evolution, advance, etc, have no relation with Progressive Rock.

And lets be honest, Hendrix is proposed for his abbilities as performer, not for his compositions which have absolutely no relation with Progressive Rock.

The definition of Prog related is clear

We specify the word MUSICAL because simple performance of a determined instrument in a Prog or mainstream band is not justification enough to include an artist, no matter how virtuoso he/she may be, Prog Archives has to evaluate their compositional work because the music is what determines the characteristics of a band or an artist.

http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=38 - http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=38

And Chris, there is a poll about Hendruix, but we had 10 in which he was rejected, and this was discussed in the collaborators section and the conclusion was....If a rejected artist doesn't release a new album that could justify his inclusion, there's no reason to insist again, if not, this would be a never ending game, an artist is rejected one, two, tyen times and people keep insisting,

Hendrix has been voted massively against in every poll, and the Adms have DECIDED not to add him to PR...Until when will be keep insisting?

Iván

-------------

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 11:52

Chris Stacey wrote:

ah but yes nearly all the above are indeed debateable points Ivan as would be Hendrix

Still let's rather not go there right now....this is after all a Hendrix thread.

At least par Lindh has much more right to be included, he was member of three 100% prog bands:

Annthena Baroque
Par Lindh Project
Lindh anfd Johansson.

Has played with Anglagard in Progfest.

Founder of the Swedish Art Rock Society

Responsible of Symphonic rebirth in the 90's

You can't compare his Prog credentials with Hendrix, simply Jimmy doesn't have where to start with him in relation to Progressive Rock.

Iván

-------------

Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 17:04

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

crimson87 wrote:

1966 Are you experienced? That's the wildest progression rock and roll ever got. Remember that a year before there was HELP! by the beatles and a year after Third Stone from the Sun.

If that's not progressing I just don't know what may be.

Again, progression, evolution, advance, etc, have no relation with Progressive Rock.

And lets be honest, Hendrix is proposed for his abbilities as performer, not for his compositions which have absolutely no relation with Progressive Rock.

The definition of Prog related is clear

http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=38 - http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=38

Hendrix has been voted massively against in every poll, and the Adms have DECIDED not to add him to PR...Until when will be keep insisting?

Iván

I know Ivan, but new people will always stop by here and weigh in sensible arguments/discussion pro say Hendrix or similar inclusions. On top of that what is wrong with a mad bunch of tenacious stalwarts adding their two cents worth, even if it is the same old dime they pass around?

On a completely different thread Boston died an early death, rightly so! Hendrix's argument for PA inclusion like the great man himself died far too young....IMO

-------------
Music - The Sound Librarian

...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 17:13

exactly Chris.... and let's not forget... I looked at one of those previous polls... there were 110 votes for him being added. That is a hell of a lot of people. This is not a suggestion from Mars... that said.. he doesn't belong here in my opinion. Explained why in a different thread.. different topic... when someone suggested Cream. Prog sprang from psychedelic... Hendrix was in the one branch.. musically... that did have little bearing or impact on prog. Of course... like any suggestion ...everyone has their two cents.. that is why these threads will always pop up.. and should be allowed to pop up. Sometime.. somewhere... someone might make a definative case for him.. and here's to hoping that people aren't too busy talking ..and not listening enough to others. Always have seen that as a bit of a problem here.

-------------
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 17:17

Chris Stacey wrote:

On a completely different thread Boston died an early death, rightly so! Hendrix's argument for PA inclusion like the great man himself died far too young....IMO

Hendrix arguments died too young?

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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=41 - General Music Discussions
	http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15087&KW=Hendrix - My Dad needs help... - Hendrix By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=3056 - The Lost Chord , November 28 2005 at 14:53	7	126	By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=285 - Dick Heath November 30 2005 at 10:13 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=15087&KW=Hendrix">
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=42 - Prog Polls
	http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5820&KW=Hendrix - - Hendrix, Emerson, Lake & Palmer By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=1962 - Yanns , May 03 2005 at 20:36 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5820&KW=Hendrix&PN=1 - 1 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5820&KW=Hendrix&PN=2 - 2	35	722	By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2515 - krauthead October 17 2005 at 15:18 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=5820&KW=Hendrix">
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=1 - Suggest New Bands and Artists
	http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13150&KW=Hendrix - Jimmi - Hendrix? By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=4465 - BitchBrew , October 16 2005 at 11:55	6	140	By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=3870 - porter October 17 2005 at 12:24 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=13150&KW=Hendrix">
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=42 - Prog Polls
	http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5805&KW=Hendrix - Jimi - Hendrix And Prog Rock By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=1946 - marktheshark , May 03 2005 at 12:09	16	323	By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=27 - PROGMAN May 04 2005 at 05:44 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=5805&KW=Hendrix">
	http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3912&KW=Hendrix - jimi - hendrix and his outstanding `girl` By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=1428 - rivera`s hope , February 26 2005 at 15:18	13	226	By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=428 - James Lee February 27 2005 at 15:40 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=3912&KW=Hendrix">
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=3 - Prog Music Lounge
	http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3795&KW=Hendrix - YOUR BEST OF - HENDRIX (NOT TOP 10 CHART) By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=1104 - Captain Fudge , February 21 2005 at 10:03	5	102	By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=1157 - mirco February 21 2005 at 19:11 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=3795&KW=Hendrix">
	http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2291&KW=Hendrix - einstein or - hendrix By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=979 - DallasBryan , November 27 2004 at 11:50	6	152	By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=979 - DallasBryan November 28 2004 at 23:19 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=2291&KW=Hendrix">
	http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2089&KW=Hendrix - Jimi - Hendrix By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=808 - Wizard/TRueStar , November 09 2004 at 18:54	18	256	By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=326 - Fitzcarraldo November 12 2004 at 07:33 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=2089&KW=Hendrix">
	http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=524&KW=Hendrix - Jimi - Hendrix By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2 - Guests , April 11 2004 at 03:29	14	217	By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=269 - The Analog Kid April 14 2004 at 11:50 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=524&KW=Hendrix">

Very few really Prog bands have been discussed that much.

micky wrote:

exactly Chris.... and let's not forget... I looked at one of those previous polls... there were 110 votes for him being added.

Micky,. that thread in which hendrix LOST 140 votes against 110 was closed by Bob because the starter allowed multiple votes.

Iván

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 17:34

micky wrote:

Hendrix was in the one branch.. musically... that did have little bearing or impact on prog. Of course... like any suggestion ...everyone has their two cents.. that is why these threads will always pop up.. and should be allowed to pop up. Sometime.. somewhere... someone might make a definative case for him.. and here's to hoping that people aren't too busy talking ..and not listening enough to others. Always have seen that as a bit of a problem here.

Interesting when opinions change so radically:

Originally posted by Micky November 13 2006 at 12:03

Micky November 13 2006 at 12:03 wrote:

NO NO NO NO NO

Hendrix is not in the same boat as Iron Maiden.. Jody is right as to why Iron Maiden should be here. Hendrix was simply not prog related. Enough on this though.... I've voiced my two cents on this enough as it is. If we are going to include artists based on what... one or two goddamned songs.. wherr the hell is this going to end LOL

He was the greatest of all guitarists.. the music itself... come on.

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31037&KW=Hendrix - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31037&KW=Hendrix

Iván

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 18:08

^ I can find no mention of the Admins deciding NOT to add Hendrix Ivan.

[admin hat off]

Considering Hendrix died in 1970 then Prog Related would be stretching things considerable, however, Proto Prog is more suited to pre-1970 artists IF they can be shown to be influential on the development of, and contribution to the formation of, Progressive Rock. For that category the artist does not have to have played Progressive Rock, or be influenced by it, in Proto Prog it is possible to discuss studio techniques, compositional influences and playing styles as being pertinent to the development of Progressive Rock (eg The Beatles)

As far as Poll are concerned I put little value to them - 99% of the Polls were for inclusion into a Prog or Prog Related sub - the only Proto-Prog poll allowed multiple votes, so was void. You don't have to know Hendrix's music to click a Yes/No box - my pet cat could do that given time and patience.

Hendrix was part of the UK Psychedelic scene of 67/68 and toured with Pink Floyd, The Move and Soft Machine - members of all three bands have open spoken of the influence of Hendrix - I think his contribution to the Psyche-scene is immeasurable (I'm sure Eetu and the Psyche team would probably agree with that) and goes beyond technique and playing style In terms of composition and structure "Electric Ladyland" is a Proto-Prog Psyche album.

[admin hat on]

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What?

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 18:13

Dean wrote:

You don't have to know Hendrix's music to click a Yes/No box - my pet cat could do that given time and patience.

The difference is that we are not your pet cat, and your comparison sounds offensive to say the less, even with your Adm hat on or off.

I believe we are honest peope with more intelligence and musical knowledge than your cat.

Iván

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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 18:14

^well said Dean Clap

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 18:19

Cacho, if comparing people who give their honest opinion in a poll with an animal, then well said

Iván

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 18:28

^ Meh - a poll vote is anonymous - it is impossible to tell the reason behind a Yes or a No vote - a Yes vote could be for all the wrong reasons, for example "I like Hendrix therefore I vote Yes" - Sorry if my cat analogy offends you, he is a very intelligent cat.

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What?

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 18:31

Chicapah wrote:

Here's my two cents. Compared to Journey (for example) Jimi was as progressive as an artist can get. He should be in here.

you're right he was a very progressive artist ..so was Eddie Van Halen but it is the music we usually look at for inclusion rather than individual virtuosity

Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 18:35

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Cacho, if comparing people who give their honest opinion in a poll with an animal, then well said

Iván

Just because you don't like other people's opinion being opposite as yours, doesn't mean they're wrong.

So please let me be free to express my opinions, as you ask when other people insult you or offend you.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 18:37

Dean wrote:

- Sorry if my cat analogy offends you, he is a very intelligent cat.

A joke doesn't make your comment less offensive, probably worst.

Iván

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 18:52

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Dean wrote:

- Sorry if my cat analogy offends you, he is a very intelligent cat.

A joke doesn't make your comment less offensive, probably worst.

Iván

Okay it was a silly joke - I admit that - but there was no way in this earth was I ever equating the intelligence and musical knowledge of a domestic moggie with the voting population of this site - I was simply pointing out that anyone can vote in a poll and that knowledge of the artist is not a prerequisite.

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What?

Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 18:53

We don't have to pick a fight for this issues , after all we all seem to agree that Hendrix should be here.

Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 18:57

Dean wrote:

^ I can find no mention of the Admins deciding NOT to add Hendrix Ivan.

[admin hat off]

[admin hat on]

In this specific case I agree with you. But also Band Of Gypsy is to be included in this situation, because I think that it is more Progressive as compared to Experience.

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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 19:04

, I concur Mandrakeroot

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Music - The Sound Librarian

...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]

Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 19:30

Argue, argue argue!

I don't give a flying firetruck, really.

(

Hey there, Otto Sensor -- how's it going?)

I like and own Hendrix and Yes, Crimson & Genesis CDs. Nothing this site does -- or does not do -- will ever change that.

Again: "progressive" (let alone influenced, or was influenced by "progressive") IS AN OUTDATED, VAGUE, SUBJECTIVE, NEAR MEANINGLESS and basically USELESS way to go about categorizing music! The term flat-out doesn't work!

Christ! Just start a general rock site!

No wait... we like jazz, metal & folk too...

I got it, let's call it "Allmusic.com"

...or, just do what I do: categorize it yourself, to suit yourself, on your shelves, Ipod, tapes and complilation CDs. Decide for yourself -- stop trying to decide for everybody else!

Let's talk about something at least half real, like parenting, declining civility, global warming, terrorism -- or even American gun violence....

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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 19:52

Mandrakeroot wrote:

[

But also Band Of Gypsy is to be included in this situation, because I think that it is more Progressive as compared to Experience.

I'm sorry Mandy but I know of no evidence to support this.. BoG released one absolutely terrific live album of blues rock (Jimi's finest moment IMO) and at no time do they exhibit anything even partly progressive, and the same for their other brilliant performances from that 2-day, 4 show event that have since been issued, nor Berkeley

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 20:06

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Interesting when opinions change so radically:

Micky November 13 2006 at 12:03 wrote:

He was the greatest of all guitarists.. the music itself... come on.

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31037&KW=Hendrix - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31037&KW=Hendrix

Iván

I figured you were smart enough to stop f**king with me Ivan... quit quoted me as if this was a f**king trial hahahha.

micky wrote:

This is not a suggestion from Mars... that said.. he doesn't belong here in my opinion. Explained why in a different thread.. different topic... when someone suggested Cream.

my opinion has not changed. Wink

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 20:18

Dean wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Dean wrote:

- Sorry if my cat analogy offends you, he is a very intelligent cat.

A joke doesn't make your comment less offensive, probably worst.

Iván

Don't worry Dean, I read much worst things.

But I tend to trust in the people who vote.

Iván

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 20:20

micky wrote:

my opinion has not changed. Wink

Which one?

Sorry, couldn't resist the chance.

Iván

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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 20:49

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

micky wrote:

my opinion has not changed. Wink

Which one?

Sorry, couldn't resist the chance.

Iván

hahaha... it's OK... unlike some around here.. I won't go crying to the admins asking posts to be hidden. LOL

sorry... couldn't resist the chance

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 00:32

Phew!, back at school. Nice to see how this thread has progressed in just a day.

I think the poll results are really irrelevant here. If I voted in that poll a year ago, I would of voted no. To me, back then, he just seemed like a blues and rock guitarist. After getting his albums and listening to them, blues and rock didn't really describe it too well. There was so much more going on in his music then those two genres of music.

I don't see why proto wouldn't be a good fit. It doesn't fall strictly under a prog definition...but it has influenced it heavily. And I think everyone can agree on his undeniable influence and part creation of the pyschedelic genre.

I have seen him listed on progressive websites as well. This wouldn't just a progarchive's exclusive artist.

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 00:42

I just don't hear where he influenced Prog, care to share some examples? The possibility that Fripp or Howe or any number of others were impacted by Hendrix's breakthroughs doesn't necessarily make him prog or protoprog ..and frankly his listing on other prog sites only makes me doubt his prog credentials even more

Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 00:45

Atavachron wrote:

I just don't hear where he influenced Prog, care to share some examples? The possibility that Fripp or Howe or any number of others were impacted by Hendrix's breakthroughs doesn't necessarily make him prog or protoprog ..and frankly his listing on other prog sites only makes me doubt his prog credentials even more

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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 01:16

Just my random response David...

Buddy Miles and Carlos Santana would be one album that has Jimi Hendrix influences all over it. The influence is there in CS's music too especially the earlier work IMO

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Music - The Sound Librarian

...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 01:41

well OK Chris, but Buddy Miles was in Band of Gypsys Big smile

, and Santana was doing electric blues before Hendrix ever recorded (Santana Blues Band, S.F. mid-1960s), making Carlos's work a logical extension of where he'd been heading in his fusions of Latin, blues, jazz and rock.. Santana was influenced by Hendrix certainly, but only as an enhancement of his already well-developed style which was more precise and less experimental than Jimi

Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 02:14

On what terms did The Beatles, The Who, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and The Doors get here? Seems like Jimi falls right in line with these artists.

Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 02:58

Hmmm, this is one of those topics that pop up now and then that really needs to get resolved one way or the other.
It's quite clear that any of the bonafide prog genres is out of bounds for Hendrix, his music, although heavily psychedelic tinged at times, is too bluesy and basic for those (don't expect many objections to that one).
He is arguably one of the most influential guitarists around though, and as guitars is a rather prominent instrument in prog rock, chances are good that he's influenced many of the classic as well as contemporary guitarists playing prog. How much of an impact that has been on the genre as such can be disputed, but I believe you'd have a hard time denying his influence on guitarists in prog bands; and in most varieties of prog to boot.

I have no personal opinion when it comes to his inclusion or not - but to put an end to this and future topics discussing Jimi going out of hand, I suggest that the admins evaluate him as a possible proto prog act.

Makes it much easier if we then at a future point in time can say that he's been evaluated - I'm kinda guessing that there will be a no in this case. What's important is that he'd then have been subject to an evaluation :-)

Admins watching - any objections?

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http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 12:00

Windhawk wrote:

Hmmm, this is one of those topics that pop up now and then that really needs to get resolved one way or the other.
It's quite clear that any of the bonafide prog genres is out of bounds for Hendrix, his music, although heavily psychedelic tinged at times, is too bluesy and basic for those (don't expect many objections to that one).

Olav, that's what it matters for us HIS MUSIC, if it's not enough, then no other influence counts.

He is arguably one of the most influential guitarists around though, and as guitars is a rather prominent instrument in prog rock, chances are good that he's influenced many of the classic as well as contemporary guitarists playing prog.

The simple performance of an instrument, no matter how virtuoso the player is, doesn't merit an inclusion, if not, the musician Lester William Polsfuss for the design of teh gibson Les Paul would be here, because he has influenced everything, and of course Emmett Chappman would be here, not only for his performance (He used the double handed tapping techniche before than Hackett but in Jazz) but for creating the Chappman Stick, and that's absurd.

How much of an impact that has been on the genre as such can be disputed, but I believe you'd have a hard time denying his influence on guitarists in prog bands; and in most varieties of prog to boot.

If it's disputed, doubtful, with no precision, that's not the influence that counts for us, the compositions are the ones that merit an inclusion.

I have no personal opinion when it comes to his inclusion or not - but to put an end to this and future topics discussing Jimi going out of hand, I suggest that the admins evaluate him as a possible proto prog act.

There will never be an end to this, becayuse even if mailto:M@X - M@X decides no, people will insist as they insist in TOTO or Boston, and each time a newbie that has heard about Hendrix joins the forum, he will suggest him and protest becausse he's not here and bands like Iron Maiden are.

Makes it much easier if we then at a future point in time can say that he's been evaluated - I'm kinda guessing that there will be a no in this case. What's important is that he'd then have been subject to an evaluation :-)

Not important at all, mailto:M@X - M@X said clearly no Metallica, Administrators said no, but Metallica is here because people insisted and Mike started a 20 pages thread.

Admins watching - any objections?

I hope they do it, but again people will insist no matter what.

Iván

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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 12:10

I don't think there will be too many cases like Metallica though - at least not as controversial.

I do think that bands may be included here in 5 years or 10 years which aren't seen as progressive today though; due to a constantly evolving point of view as to what makes music progressive.

That is not always for the worst though; if you look back to the early 90's and saw all the bands branded as Neo back then, a sigh of relief is called for regarding these acts no longer seen as progressive.

As for specific example - an act called Differences. Many more of that ilk branded as Neo prog back then ;-)

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Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/

Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 12:27

Okay, my opinion. I have supported Jimi Hendrix (as well as most definitely Cream since that has been mentioned in this thread, and it seems whenever Jimi get mentioned I say that Cream should be here, and one topic mentioned both), and I still think that Hendrix would be a fairly fair addition to the site (though he may be more of a Proto-Prog Related artist), though I don't know how well he fits Proto Prog. Hendrix was a progressive rock artist, but not Prog (nor primitive Prog really). His influence was in general more on rock overall than particularly Prog artists (a similar concern I raised about Metallica -- that Metallica was more influential to metal generally than Prog specifically). Technically, for instance, his controlled use of distortion (a big influence on the rejected P-Funk incidentally) was progressive, but structurally I don't know that he was doing things that greatly expanded the rock universe. Still, one of the most important aspects of Prog is a hybridisation of styles, and Hendrix (though not unusual in it for the time) at least has explored, and drawn from, psych rock (and psych is very important to Prog), funk/ jazz, soul, and blues (though funk in itself derives from R&B, jazz, and soul), and I think his instrumentals not alien to the Progiverse (a more "primitive" form perhaps), or... never mind.

For his hybridisations of styles, his experimental qualities, his significance in the psych rock movement, as well as his innovations in guitar playing, I think he could have a place here. He was never Prog (or early/ primitive prog really, and of course there were artists of his time who were creating Prog even if it wasn't known as Prog at the time -- I don't even like the term Prog), but as far as I'm concerned, he was part of the 60's progressive (adjective) rock scene -- doing interesting things that helped to progress rock.

I don't know that his approach to music is that far-removed from the so-called Progressive Rock approach (and indeed, it could be said that Prog is, in part, an extension of the work of seminal rock artists such as Jimi Hendrix, but to say that is to say very little indeed -- lolz).

P.S. I think people disassociate blues from Prog too much and funk-rock is hardly anathema to Prog (thinking of Band of Gipsies -- what a great album - funk is an important element of much Prog that I love).

So a rather weak post from me since I don't have much in the way of substantial arguments to make the case, and my pondering out loud here is not that valid, nor have i bothered to research his historical impact, and I would argue with myself over certain ideas expressed. The notion of Proto-Prog and Related is rather vague for me (can be), and I'll let others who understand the categories better than I (what makes one artist acceptable and another dismissed) make a case.

Jimi Hendrix was progressive, and moved in the same circles as Proto-Prog and early Prog acts, but perhaps he didn't develop enough (or have the chance to develop) as a progressive rock artist. I don't think he'd be out of place amongst other Proto-Prog artists here, but strictly speaking, I think he may be more Proto-Prog Related than Proto-Prog. Influential, yes, involved in psych, yes, progressive, yes, more than rock and roll, yes absolutely, but I wouldn't credit him for creating early Prog, or Proto-Prog templates (he was part of an exciting scene that impacted Prog, but not that innovative beyond a technical level, I'd say). Not truly Proto-Prog (making primitive, or original Prog as proto implies. It was not Prog in the embryonic stage, though he has Proto-Proggish music. I do think he could fit, but I don't think he was an important artist in the creation of Prog (others of the time were much more Prog); yet he was progressive. Proto Prog really should be for vanguard artists that heralded the creation of full Prog (created primitive/ early forms of Prog), or else change the name from Proto. But, I still think he could fit both due to his connection with other PP artists as well as his approach to making music; however; composition/ structure should be key, I think, and I suspect he falls too short of the mark (even if he has his moments).

Apologies for this post, it's long, not very valid, misguided, and without substance. I wanted to write something (as I promised to say more later early on in the thread -- don't know I bothered making such a promise as my response is hardly needed; no one would care if I responded or not), but am not feeling at all well today. I'll post it so to embarrass myself in order to curb such self-indulgence in the future, but just ignore it, please. It's not worth responding to.

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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts

Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 12:37

Logan wrote:

Okay, my opinion. I have supported Jimi Hendrix (as well as most definitely Cream since that has been mentioned in this thread, and it seems whenever Jimi get mentioned I say that Cream should be here, and one topic mentioned both), and I still think that Hendrix would be a fairly fair addition to the site (though he may be more of a Proto-Prog Related artist), though I don't know how well he fits Proto Prog. Hendrix was a progressive rock artist, but not Prog (nor primitive Prog really). His influence was in general more on rock overall than particularly Prog artists (a similar concern I raised about Metallica -- that Metallica was more influential to metal generally than Prog specifically). Technically, for instance, his controlled use of distortion (a big influence on the rejected P-Funk incidentally) was progressive, but structurally I don't know that he was doing things that greatly expanded the rock universe. Still, one of the most important aspects of Prog is a hybridisation of styles, and Hendrix (though not unusual in it for the time) at least has explored, and drawn from, psych rock (and psych is very important to Prog), funk/ jazz, soul, and blues (though funk in itself derives from R&B, jazz, and soul), and I think his instrumentals not alien to the Progiverse (a more "primitive" form perhaps), or... never mind.

For his hybridisations of styles, his experimental qualities, his significance in the psych rock movement, as well as his innovations in guitar playing, I think he could have a place here. He was never Prog (or early/ primitive prog really, and of course there were artists of his time who were creating Prog even if it wasn't known as Prog at the time -- I don't even like the term Prog), but as far as I'm concerned, he was part of the 60's progressive (adjective) rock scene -- doing interesting things that helped to progress rock.

I don't know that his approach to music is that far-removed from the so-called Progressive Rock approach (and indeed, it could be said that Prog is, in part, an extension of the work of seminal rock artists such as Jimi Hendrix, but to say that is to say very little indeed -- lolz).

P.S. I think people disassociate blues from Prog too much and funk-rock is hardly anathema to Prog (thinking of Band of Gipsies -- what a great album - funk is an important element of much Prog that I love).

So a rather weak post from me since I don't have much in the way of substantial arguments to make the case, and my pondering out loud here is not that valid, nor have i bothered to research his historical impact, and I would argue with myself over certain ideas expressed. The notion of Proto-Prog and Related is rather vague for me (can be), and I'll let others who understand the categories better than I (what makes one artist acceptable and another dismissed) make a case.

Jimi Hendrix was progressive, and moved in the same circles as Proto-Prog and early Prog acts, but perhaps he didn't develop enough (or have the chance to develop) as a progressive rock artist. I don't think he'd be out of place amongst other Proto-Prog artists here, but strictly speaking, I think he may be more Proto-Prog Related than Proto-Prog. Influential, yes, involved in psych, yes, progressive, yes, more than rock and roll, yes absolutely, but I wouldn't credit him for creating early Prog, or Proto-Prog templates (he was part of an exciting scene that impacted Prog, but not that innovative beyond a technical level, I'd say). Not truly Proto-Prog (making primitive, or original Prog as proto implies. It was not Prog in the embryonic stage, though he has Proto-Proggish music. I do think he could fit, but I don't think he was an important artist in the creation of Prog (others of the time were much more Prog); yet he was progressive. Proto Prog really should be for vanguard artists that heralded the creation of full Prog (created primitive/ early forms of Prog), or else change the name from Proto. But, I still think he could fit both due to his connection with other PP artists as well as his approach to making music; however; composition/ structure should be key, I think, and I suspect he falls too short of the mark (even if he has his moments).

Apologies for this post, it's long, not very valid, misguided, and without substance, I wanted to write something (as I promised to say more later early on in the thread), but am not feeling at all well today. I'll post it so to embarrass myself in order to curb such self-indulgence in the future, but just ignore it, please. It's not worth responding to.

Well give us readers the benefit of the doubt Greg re your thread! The best pro Hendrix suggestion by far along with Olav's

-------------
Music - The Sound Librarian

...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 12:44

Windhawk wrote:

I don't think there will be too many cases like Metallica though - at least not as controversial.

You are new here Olav

Blue Oyster Cult
iron Maiden
Journey
The Who
The Doors
Steeleye Span
Steely Dan
Radiohead (On it's day it was probably the most controversial band)

Are this enough?

Iván

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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 13:22

Thanks, Chris, I actually flip-flopped too much with that post, but I don't think it often important or helpful to offer more than one side of an argument when discussing a potential addition (in fact, I devalued his contribution too much partially in order to be respectful of those who see it another way). Reading back through the thread, I think that Dean provided a compelling case in a non-admin capacity. Thank goodness that I don't have to wear different hats (the only hat I ever wear is a toque when I'm skiing, though my rain jacket has a hood. Hats cramp my hair-style). Dean, sorry for snipping your post, but the whole thing can be read on page two.

Dean wrote:

[snip]....

-------------
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts

Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 13:32

Blue Oyster Cult
- Don't see them as very controversial. Good fit for related
iron Maiden
- Same as above
Journey
- Don't know the act, so can't comment
The Who
- Not overly familiar with those, I would not have voted them in but don't see them as a problem
The Doors
- Good fit for related
Steeleye Span
- Don't know the band
Steely Dan
- Don't know the band
Radiohead (On it's day it was probably the most controversial band)
- I have major problems in seeing how this band could ever have been regarded as controversial. By anyone.

-------------
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 14:57

Windhawk wrote:

Blue Oyster Cult
- Don't see them as very controversial. Good fit for related

Unfortunately, not everyone thought the same as you at the time. I added the band, and the flak I got caused me to leave the site for three months, as well as my position as Admin.

iron Maiden
- Same as above

And same as above... In both cases, I was accused of wanting to add my favourite bands (when I don't even have a favourite band as such). To say it was unpleasant was an understatement. People don't realise that personal attacks go way beyond what is acceptable in such circumstances.

Journey
- Don't know the act, so can't comment
The Who
- Not overly familiar with those, I would not have voted them in but don't see them as a problem
The Doors
- Good fit for related
Steeleye Span
- Don't know the band
Steely Dan
- Don't know the band
Radiohead (On it's day it was probably the most controversial band)
- I have major problems in seeing how this band could ever have been regarded as controversial. By anyone.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 15:16

Raff wrote:

Windhawk wrote:

Blue Oyster Cult
- Don't see them as very controversial. Good fit for related

Unfortunately, not everyone thought the same as you at the time. I added the band, and the flak I got caused me to leave the site for three months, as well as my position as Admin.

In my case, I didn't took part in that discussion

iron Maiden
- Same as above

As you may remember well, I was one of the few who supported and fought for their inclusion

Journey
- Don't know the act, so can't comment

As you can read, every time a new band is to be added, Journey is used as comparison, so still controversial.

The Who
- Not overly familiar with those, I would not have voted them in but don't see them as a problem

Excellent Rock band, in this case I was against, but shut my mouth as soon as added.

The Doors
- Good fit for related

I supported them for Proto Prog

Steeleye Span
- Don't know the band

IMO only Folk, not Prog

Steely Dan
- Don't know the band

Well, the case still si hot.

Radiohead (On it's day it was probably the most controversial band)
- I have major problems in seeing how this band could ever have been regarded as controversial. By anyone.

Well, a good bunch of us feels is not Prog at all, but also shut my mouth as soon as they were added.

I don't say they are wrong, I'm only saying they were highly controversial.

Iván

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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 16:21

Well, I can't see how 1983 (A Merman I Should Turn To Be) does not qualify as a full blown psychedelic progressive rock piece. Long, unusual, very 'prog' production (with ideas slipping from ear to ear), a range of very interesting percussion sounds, a bit of 'soundscaping' in the middle. A full range of tempos and forces, a subtly included flute, some very blues licks as well as more unusual guitar sounds.

Anyway, my opinion is that he was responsible for some serious progression in rock, and certainly a huge influence on Fripp, especially, and others who were in the prog movement. The psych prog genre owes a lot to him, according to the people who'd know.

I'd put him in proto, at least, but that's just me.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 16:52

TGM: Orb wrote:

Well, I can't see how 1983 (A Merman I Should Turn To Be) does not qualify as a full blown psychedelic progressive rock piece. Long, unusual, very 'prog' production (with ideas slipping from ear to ear), a range of very interesting percussion sounds, a bit of 'soundscaping' in the middle. A full range of tempos and forces, a subtly included flute, some very blues licks as well as more unusual guitar sounds.

A song doesn't justify an inclusion

Anyway, my opinion is that he was responsible for some serious progression in rock,

Dylan, Rolling Stones, Elvis, etc are responsible for a serious progression in Rock, but they are not in PA because we don't add bands for how much they made Rock Progress, but for their relation with Progressive Rock, which is something absolutely different.

and certainly a huge influence on Fripp, especially, and others who were in the prog movement. The psych prog genre owes a lot to him, according to the people who'd know.

Influenced how? Musically or guitar technique?

Musically, I doubt it very much, mainly because Fripp was working in 1967 with Giles, Giles and Fripp, creating his own style.

Somebody said before that Santana accepts he has been influenced by Hendrix...FALSE, Santana claims Hendrix was influenced by him

Carlos Santana has suggested that Hendrix's music may have been influenced by his Native American heritage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Hendrix - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Hendrix

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Hendrix#cite_ref-7 - ^ "Carlos Santana on Jimi Hendrix". UniVibes (February 1995). Retrieved on 2007-09-18.

And if Hendrix influenced Fripp or any other musician because of his guitar technique, doesn't merit an inclusion,. the influence has to be compositional.

I'd put him in proto, at least, but that's just me.

I would leave him out, this is nothing against his greatness, but simply because he's not even Prog related and this is a Progressive Rock site.

Iván

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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 17:01

An article it would have been interesting to get hold of in this particular context, is the one where the initial page is shown here:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/852882 - http://www.jstor.org/pss/852882

-------------
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 17:03

Another intriguing item (in more aspects than this context as well):

http://spot.colorado.edu/%7Ekeister/ProgressiveRockClass.htm - http://spot.colorado.edu/~keister/ProgressiveRockClass.htm

-------------
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 17:24

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

A song doesn't justify an inclusion

The site does say it wants to be the ultimate progressive rock site, as far as I can see, the only way to do that is to include everything progressive rock, even if it means letting in a bit of circumstantial non-prog. The rest of the album is as solid a ground for inclusion as, say, Moving Pictures, including all sorts of sonic experiments, new sounds, challenging production.

As I understand policy, one 'prog' album merits inclusion.

Anyway, my opinion is that he was responsible for some serious progression in rock,

and certainly a huge influence on Fripp, especially, and others who were in the prog movement. The psych prog genre owes a lot to him, according to the people who'd know.

Influenced how? Musically or guitar technique?

Isn't guitar technique musical? In particular, how do you distinguish something like the 'technique' of the harpsichord-like sound of Burning of the Midnight Lamp from its composition. One is key to the other... they can't always be separated.

Musically, I doubt it very much, mainly because Fripp was working in 1967 with Giles, Giles and Fripp, creating his own style.

I don't follow the logic here. Having recorded or played previously doesn't make you impervious to influence. Equally, having your own style doesn't make you impervious to influence.

Somebody said before that Santana accepts he has been influenced by Hendrix...FALSE, Santana claims Hendrix was influenced by him

Carlos Santana has suggested that Hendrix's music may have been influenced by his Native American heritage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Hendrix - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Hendrix

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Hendrix#cite_ref-7 - "Carlos Santana on Jimi Hendrix". UniVibes (February 1995). Retrieved on 2007-09-18.

And if Hendrix influenced Fripp or any other musician because of his guitar technique, doesn't merit an inclusion,. the influence has to be compositional.

Is Howe's guitar on Close To The Edge 'progressive rock' because of the composition, or because of the tone? I'd say that the tone/'technique'/style was just as important a factor as the composition. I think the headmen of the psych prog team have pretty much consistently called him a major influence on that subgenre.

I'd put him in proto, at least, but that's just me.

I would leave him out, this is nothing against his greatness, but simply because he's not even Prog related and this is a Progressive Rock site.

Iván

Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 17:50

Logan wrote:

Thanks, Chris, I actually flip-flopped too much with that post, but I don't think it often important or helpful to offer more than one side of an argument when discussing a potential addition (in fact, I devalued his contribution too much partially in order to be respectful of those who see it another way). Reading back through the thread, I think that Dean provided a compelling case in a non-admin capacity. Thank goodness that I don't have to wear different hats (the only hat I ever wear is a toque when I'm skiing, though my rain jacket has a hood. Hats cramp my hair-style). Dean, sorry for snipping your post, but the whole thing can be read on page two.

Dean wrote:

[snip]....

True.....some very compelling points here too and actually looking up at the controversial comment additions, I was surprised to see so few

-------------
Music - The Sound Librarian

...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 18:19

TGM: Orb wrote:

The site does say it wants to be the ultimate progressive rock site, as far as I can see, the only way to do that is to include everything progressive rock, even if it means letting in a bit of circumstantial non-prog. The rest of the album is as solid a ground for inclusion as, say, Moving Pictures, including all sorts of sonic experiments, new sounds, challenging production.

As I understand policy, one 'prog' album merits inclusion.

I admit Hendrix has all sort of of experimental guitar techniques, but that doesn't make it Prog,

REM, Dylan, OMD, etc, all had experimental music, but that didn't made them Prog.

I disagree with including non prog as you say, even if it's circumstantial, because in that moment we loose credibility.

BTW: Not even the most hardcore fan of Hendrix could say that his Blues/Funk/Pyche/Soul is Prog, not remotely.

Isn't guitar technique musical? In particular, how do you distinguish something like the 'technique' of the harpsichord-like sound of Burning of the Midnight Lamp from its composition. One is key to the other... they can't always be separated.

The rules are there:

We specify the word MUSICAL because simple performance of a determined instrument in a Prog or mainstream band is not justification enough to include an artist, no matter how virtuoso he/she may be, Prog Archives has to evaluate their compositional work because the music is what determines the characteristics of a band or an artist.

http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=38 - http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=38

More clear than water, we're talking about composition, not performance.

I don't follow the logic here. Having recorded or played previously doesn't make you impervious to influence. Equally, having your own style doesn't make you impervious to influence.

It's at least very hard to be influenced by a coetaneous or later musician, a posterior artist can be influenced by a previous one, but a coetaneous or a previous not vice versa.

Is Howe's guitar on Close To The Edge 'progressive rock' because of the composition, or because of the tone? I'd say that the tone/'technique'/style was just as important a factor as the composition. I think the headmen of the psych prog team have pretty much consistently called him a major influence on that subgenre.

Close to he edge is Prog because Anderson Beruford, Wakeman, Howe and Squire play Progressive Rock, not because Steve's guitar alone.

If Steve plays a Prog song with his guitar, that will be Prog, if he plays Rap, no matter it's Steve Howe, it will be Rap, despite his technique, maybe better Rap, buut not more

Iván

-------------

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 18:26

^ Ivan, you're quoting the Prog Related definiton - that proviso does not apply to Proto-Prog

-------------
What?

Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 18:31

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Not important at all, mailto:M@X - M@X said clearly no Metallica, Administrators said no, but Metallica is here because people insisted and Mike started a 20 pages thread.

Just a point... I don't care for the Hendrix thing and I guess other people will make the better decision. About Metallica, I hope it can be clear:

MAX SAID NO.

ANOTHER MEMBER NOT NAMED MIKE (NOT MIKEENREGALIA) STARTED A THREAD ABOUT THEM.

THE THREAD REACHED ALMOST 40 PAGES.

THERE WERE ARGUMENTS. SORRY IF YOURS DIDN'T WIN IVAN.

MAX THEN SAID "YES". HE EVEN CONGRATULATED ME FOR THE BIOGRAPHY. SO STOP SAYING THAT WE ADDED METALLICA BECAUSE WE JUST "WANTED TO". We didn't just ignore MAX decisions. He APPROVED. THE SITE OWNER SAID YES

Sorry for the caps, but your style, in this case, fits my point perfectly Ivan. With all respect.

-------------

Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 18:46

What The T said, I shall +1 it.

-------------

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 19:04

Dean wrote:

^ Ivan, you're quoting the Prog Related definiton - that proviso does not apply to Proto-Prog

Dean,I know that. I wrote both definitions, and I felt unnecessary to repeat in Proto Prog what was already said in Prog related, because I believe we are people that act with logic.

That phrase is talking about the INCLUSION OF A BAND IN PROGARCHIVES, this rule is applied to every sub-genre, we only felt it was necessary to reinforce it in the specific case of Prog Related.

Or do you believe we will act to Symphonic any good Keyboardist?????????

This is a Progressive Rock site, not a performance site

If for PR is necesary to make Prog compositions, for more reason itr's necessary in every other sub-genre, simple logic.

Now to T who talks wiothout checking what he said.

The T wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Not important at all, mailto:M@X - M@X said clearly no Metallica, Administrators said no, but Metallica is here because people insisted and Mike started a 20 pages thread.

Just a point... I don't care for the Hendrix thing and I guess other people will make the better decision. About Metallica, I hope it can be clear:

MAX SAID NO. YES M mailto:M@X - @x SAID NO!!!!!!!!!!!

ANOTHER MEMBER NOT NAMED MIKE (NOT MIKEENREGALIA) STARTED A THREAD ABOUT THEM.

THE THREAD REACHED ALMOST 40 PAGES.

THERE WERE ARGUMENTS. SORRY IF YOURS DIDN'T WIN IVAN.

FALSE, HE LATER CHANGED HIS MIND.

Sorry for the caps, but your style, in this case, fits my point perfectly Ivan. With all respect.

T, mailto:M@X - M@X had specifically rejected Metallica, he changed his mind after several threads and polls, you want a prove?:

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Posted: August 10 2008 at 08:34

Just a reminder that mailto:M@X - M@x has said no to Metallica being added at all.

Is this enough for you T???????????????????

So T, better take down your caps, because what I said is 100% true.

Better learn that i always support what I say.

Rest my case.

Ivñan

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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 19:12

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

FALSE, HE LATER CHANGED HIS MIND. You have said it yourself Ivan. There's no need for more. HE CHANGED HIS MIND. HE. mailto:M@X - M@X . THE SITE OWNER.

I don't need proofs Ivan. I never said you lied. I even said that Max originally said no.

The T wrote:

MAX SAID NO.

Is this enough for you T???????????????????

So T, better take down your caps, because what I said is 100% true. I never said you lied Ivan. I just want to make it CLEAR for the 3487340938403948-2 time that the addition was done WITH MAX'S APPROVAL.

Better learn that i always support what I say. I know it Ivan. I wouldn't pick a random logic fight with you. I just need to make clarifications about an addition that cost me time and effort.

Rest my case. There's no case here. Just a point made by me about a side issue here.

Ivñan Teo

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 19:24

T, your post clearly implied I lied, you even made capital letters size 10 to enhance your claims

I know I'm stubborn, I know I'm a Prog purist....But I never lie and I always have support to what I say.

BTW: To prove that, I will say that yes, Mike didn't started THAT thread, but he was the most active supporter and started another one almost simultaneously:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51646&KW=Metallica - - Metallica: Progressiveness Distribution
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=1923 - MikeEnRegalia , September 08 2008 at 18:44

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51646&KW=Metallica&PN=1 - 1 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51646&KW=Metallica&PN=2 - 2 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51646&KW=Metallica&PN=3 - 3

I have an excellent memory, but not so good to remember 1,000 threads literally, specially two started almost simultaneously about the same issue.

You see T, I always support what I say.:

1.- mailto:M@X - M@X said no to Metallica

2.- Many threads were started

3.- One that reached 40 pages

4.- Siumultaneeously Mike started another thread

5.- mailto:M@X - M@X changed his mind.

If you look at my reply to Olav, you will see that this is my point, no matter who says no, people will keep insisting.

There will never be an end to this, because even if mailto:M@X - M@X decides no, people will insist
Makes it much easier if we then at a future point in time can say that he's been evaluated - I'm kinda guessing that there will be a no in this case. What's important is that he'd then have been subject to an evaluation :-)

Not important at all, mailto:M@X - M@X said clearly no Metallica, Administrators said no, but Metallica is here because people insisted and Mike started a 20 pages thread.

That was precisely my point, even when mailto:M@X - M@X said NO, people insisted.

So, before correcting me, please read all the post.

Thanks

Iván

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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 19:41

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

T, your post clearly implied i was lied Never. I don't know where you read that I implied you lied. If it's about the Mike thing, I always knew it was a confussion... maybe one that helped your point, though, as Mike was a prog-metalo team member at that time. It has more impact to say "mike started the thread" than "Member X who nobody knows about started the thread".

I know I'm stubborn, I know I'm a Prog purist....But I never lie and I always have support to what I say.

BTW: To prove that, I will say that yes, Mike didn't started THAT thread, but he was the most active supporter and started another one almost simmyultaneously.: Yes and no. The most active supporter was Certf1ed alongside Mike and HughesJb4 and then me. And David and Logan and many others contributed 40 pages as well. It was a thread that in some way or the other touched everybody. On the NO said Alberto Munoz (then Zapreth) was the most active member.

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51646&KW=Metallica - - Metallica: Progressiveness Distribution This was an UNRELATED thread. Mike started this one for HIS website (we know how he loves to promote and enhance his website) asking us to rate Metallica in his website.
y http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=1923 - MikeEnRegalia , September 08 2008 at 18:44

You see T, I always support what i say, maybe I will confuse one theread with another but the fact is:

1.- MX said no to Metallica True

2.- Many threads were started Over time. The one that changed it all WAS NOT started by any of the most active supporters. Actually, in my first posts, I even said I was not going to participate as I though it was a lost cause. Check the evidence.

3.- One that reached 40 pagesWith arguments, discussions, and some poor points, as always.

4.- Siumultaneeously Mike started another thread Let's ask Mike why he started it. But yes, he did. For his website.

5.- MX changed his mind. Which is my whole point. Metallica were added because THE SITE OWNER changed his mind. Maybe you're afraid that if people keep pushing for an addition -say, Hendrix- then mailto:M@x - M@x will change his mind again. He will do what he wants to do. It's his website.

If you look at my reply to Olave, you will see that this is my point, no matter who says no, people will keep insisting. I'm only concerned in the continuous references to the Metallica addition.

There will never be an end to this, because even if mailto:M@x - M@X decides no, people will insist And it's up to Max to change his mind or not. He's a grown man after all. We don't have to be "protecting him from maybe changing his mind again" (my words, not yours, but interpreting the idea).
Makes it much easier if we then at a future point in time can say that he's been evaluated - I'm kinda guessing that there will be a no in this case. What's important is that he'd then have been subject to an evaluation :-)

Not important at all, mailto:M@x - M@X said clearly no Metallica, Administrators said no, but Metallica is here because people insisted and Mike started a 20 pages thread.

That was precisely my point, even when mailto:M@x - M@X said NO, people insisted. Again, yes they did. And he changed his mind. Why CAN'T PEOPLE change his minds?

So, before correcting me,. read all the post. I did. I love to read your points. They are some of the better made in the whole website. This time, though, I felt some clarifications were needed.

Thanks

Iván Teo

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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 19:45

The T wrote:

Sorry for the caps, but your style, in this case, fits my point perfectly Ivan. With all respect.

If this is what you think implies that you lied, you're wrong Ivan. I'm just interpreting your words and continous references about the Metallica addition as a way of saying that "we added metallica because we just wanted to". It was an addition that fulfilled all requirements and even more and I'm tired of seeing it mentioned as an example of the danger of insisting.

-------------

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 19:55

T wrote:

"SO STOP SAYING THAT WE ADDED METALLICA BECAUSE WE JUST "WANTED TO".

T...can you tell me when I said this?????? Please do it...If you can.

YOU ARE PLACING WORDS IN MY MOUTH and trying to fix your mistake with a lot of fforced arguments.

No matter how many explanations you give, no matter how many times you say Mike made that thread to boost his site, you and all the fotrum know that Mike started the thread to suport Metallica.

Enough about Metallica.

Iván

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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 19:56

THIS IS AN EVEN BIGGER FONT!!!

-------------
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 19:58

Yes, ridiculous, I agree

Iván

-------------

Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 19:58

Peter wrote:

THIS IS AN EVEN BIGGER FONT!!!

Guess this size is better if we want to win any arguments around here...

-------------

Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 20:03

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

T wrote:

"SO STOP SAYING THAT WE ADDED METALLICA BECAUSE WE JUST "WANTED TO".

This thread isn't even about Metallica!

But I had to make the point.

T...can you tell me when I said this?????? Please do it...If you can. You never said it. I told you, it's implied. Just like you read implications in my word, I read them in yours. Sorry, I do that too.

YOU ARE PLACING WORDS IN MY MOUTH and trying to fix your mistake with a lot of fforced arguments. Ok. You didn't say that. I can give you that Ivan.

No matter how many explanations you give, no matter how many times you say Mike made that thread to boost his site, you and all the fotrum know that Mike started the thread to suport Metallica. Now YOU are putting words (or better, intentions) on Mike's actions. Why can you do this and I can't? Do you know for a FACT that he created that thread to support Metallica?

But Metallica is here, nobody can do a thing, even if we start 100 threads askingg to remove Metallica, things won't change, so stop all this, I said something that i supported with quotes and facts, you made a scandal ansd placed words in my mouth I never said. If I "made a scandal" it's because I'm DAMN TIRED of people mentioning an addition that was approved by THE SITE OWNER. And that went through a LOT of discussion before ever happening.

Enough about Metallica. With that I agree.

Iván T

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 20:05

The T wrote:

Guess this size is better if we want to win any arguments around here...

No T, nobody wins or loose an argument shouting and using large fonts with non truth phrases,.

You make a point with arguments, quotes and facts.

I can say that Eminem is a prog artist in 100 size font. and won't be truth.

Iván

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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 20:06

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

]

I can say thatEminem is a progfg artiost in 100 size font. and won't be truth.

No it won't.... But some people will start believing it..

The lost art of propaganda...

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 20:09

^^^ Now I understand why you used so big font.

Iván

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Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 20:45

Man , the only way to solve this issue about Hendrix is to ask the greats in prog like Fripp , Howe , Hackett or Gilmour. If they say how Hendrix influenced them then is more than clear that he is prog.

Vote The Rolling Stones for Prog Related!!!!

Posted By: anoah
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 20:51

Hello everyone,

I'm fairly new here--young too, so I doubt this post will really be noticed, BUT...

I know various artists (Metallica, Radiohead, etc.) have stirred up a bit of controversy here, and I appreciate all the people who are making valid points on both sides, but why does this need to turn into attacks, things that have nothing to do with music at all. We do not need to accuse people of being liars or being "new" and inexperienced. This is a music community, and we are supposed to come together to share our musical tastes, to discuss and disagree on music styles and techniques, to recommend music that is important to us.

I love Jimi Hendrix! He's an amazing guitarist and influenced countless musicians. But it doesn't matter to me whether he gets into the archives or not. Him being a member of the archives doesn't increase his greatness. He was never renowned as the greatest prog guitarist of the last century. He's just an amazing musician. His spot in the archives is an interesting topic, and as I said, it's nice that people are making arguments for why he should and shouldn't be a member of the archives, but frankly, does it even matter?

Should we really let another musician's spot in the archives get between fellow prog-lovers? We are a special community. There are very few places where music listeners who enjoy a very lovely and unique style of music can come together to share their love of the music. This is an amazing place.

-Noah

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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 20:55

crimson87 wrote:

Vote The Rolling Stones for Prog Related!!!!

Or for Proto Prog for this:

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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 20:57

anoah wrote:

Hello everyone,

-Noah

it is an amazing place, Noah, thanks for reminding us of that.. many here have strong feelings due to years of listening behind them and those feelings come out with passion sometimes ..for those that are the caretakers here, it matters because decisions have to be made, and artists cannot then be removed so it's important to be sure and to have all arguments on the table

hope you enjoy your time here

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 21:15

The T wrote:

T...can you tell me when I said this?????? Please do it...If you can. .

YOU ARE PLACING WORDS IN MY MOUTH and trying to fix your mistake with a lot of fforced arguments. Ok. You didn't say that. I can give you that Ivan.

Please, put is as big as your initial post.

That would had been enough T to avoid all this disgusting problems, quote what I say, because I'm the kind odf person that always says my truth loud and clear.

The T wrote:

No matter how many explanations you give, no matter how many times you say Mike made that thread to boost his site, you and all the fotrum know that Mike started the thread to suport Metallica. Now YOU are putting words (or better, intentions) on Mike's actions. Why can you do this and I can't? Do you know for a FACT that he created that thread to support Metallica?

Please T, don't pretend to be that naive.

There's a debate about metallica that already has 10 pages
Mike starts another one PRECISELY IN THAT MOMENT SUPPORTING METALLICA'S PROGRSIVENESS
And you say it's not to suport Metallica...PLEASE T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please T, it's yellow, has feathers, says quack, it's a duck.

The T wrote:

But Metallica is here, nobody can do a thing, even if we start 100 threads asking to remove Metallica, things won't change, so stop all this, I said something that i supported with quotes and facts, you made a scandal ansd placed words in my mouth I never said. If I "made a scandal" it's because I'm DAMN TIRED of people mentioning an addition that was approved by THE SITE OWNER. And that went through a LOT of discussion before ever happening.

Exactly what I'm saying MAKING A FINAL DECISION ABOUT A BAND IS FUTILE, BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL INSIST EVEN IN mailto:M@X - M@X , THE ADM AND MOST OF THE PEOPLE (METALLICA LOST OF THE POLLS) DISAGREE.

Iván

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Posted By: ziggystardust360
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 21:30

I don't think Hendrix belongs in the archives.
Because if we added Hendrix we'd have to add bands like Funkadelic,Sly Stone,Grateful Dead.
They all had the same system going on all had the same styles,now think about this what if all these bands were added because all have the same qualities Hendrix's music had.
Now doesn't that just sound ridiculous.

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''I always had the repulsive need to be something other than human''-David Bowie

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 21:35

ziggystardust360 wrote:

I don't think Hendrix belongs in the archives.
Because if we added Hendrix we'd have to add bands like Funkadelic,Sly Stone,Grateful Dead.
They all had the same system going on all had the same styles,now think about this what if all these bands were added because all have the same qualities Hendrix's music had.
Now doesn't that just sound ridiculous.

luckily it doesn't work that way and we wouldn't have to add any artist based on any other, which is part of the argument against Jimi's inclusion; he either was influential on progrock or he wasn't, and he couldn't really be ProgRelated because he died in 1970

Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: December 01 2008 at 01:11

Let's refrain from "If X band , why not Y? please Wink

"They all had the same system going on all had the same styles,now think about this what if all these bands were added because all have the same qualities Hendrix's music had"

Substantiate this please. Doesn't wash with me.

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Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: December 01 2008 at 01:17

not Prog but one of the most influential progressive artists of all time, he deserves a place here at least in Space Rock or Proto-prog - the problem here is he is basically a Blues player, something which PA are reluctant to handle as this would "open too many other floodgates" (Groundhogs, Free et al...) never mind the funk thing (though Jazz Fusion gets away with it as its so popular among the PA cognoscenti...)

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Prog Archives Tour Van

Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: December 01 2008 at 01:18

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

The T wrote:

T...can you tell me when I said this?????? Please do it...If you can. .

YOU ARE PLACING WORDS IN MY MOUTH and trying to fix your mistake with a lot of fforced arguments. Ok. You didn't say that. I can give you that Ivan.

Please, put is as big as your initial post.

That would had been enough T to avoid all this disgusting problems, quote what I say, because I'm the kind odf person that always says my truth loud and clear.

Please T, don't pretend to be that naive.

There's a debate about metallica that already has 10 pages
Mike starts another one PRECISELY IN THAT MOMENT SUPPORTING METALLICA'S PROGRSIVENESS
And you say it's not to suport Metallica...PLEASE T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please T, it's yellow, has feathers, says quack, it's a duck.

What if you painted a duck red? Then you'd be wrong LOL

The T wrote:

Exactly what I'm saying MAKING A FINAL DECISION ABOUT A BAND IS FUTILE, BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL INSIST EVEN IN mailto:M@X - M@X , THE ADM AND MOST OF THE PEOPLE (METALLICA LOST OF THE POLLS) DISAGREE.

Yes, but the people who were against Metallica's addition AND posted in the thread didn't provide good enough arguments/evidence to substantiate their posts.
Most arguments went as far as "no Metallica".
On the other hand, many of the pro Metallica posts by Cert for eg, had great evidence and arguments.

Iván

So, about that Hendrix thing.....

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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: December 01 2008 at 01:22

mystic fred wrote:

Proto Prog, maybe........just maybe (although I still wouldn't agree with it, at least it would make a tiny teeny bit of sense).
But as for adding Hendrix to a fully a full fledged prog genre (Space/Psychedelic) will certainly not happen without it becoming problematic in some way or another.

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 01 2008 at 08:45

HughesJB4 wrote:

Please T, it's yellow, has feathers, says quack, it's a duck.

What if you painted a duck red? Then you'd be wrong LOL

It's still a duck

[
Yes, but the people who were against Metallica's addition AND posted in the thread didn't provide good enough arguments/evidence to substantiate their posts.
Most arguments went as far as "no Metallica".
On the other hand, many of the pro Metallica posts by Cert for eg, had great evidence and arguments.

I don't believe so, but my policy is to shut my mouth after a band is added. Each one reads as they want to read.

Iván

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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: December 01 2008 at 10:23

HughesJB4 wrote:

mystic fred wrote:

Proto Prog sounds fine for me...

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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: December 01 2008 at 10:27

Peter wrote:

THIS IS AN EVEN BIGGER FONT!!!

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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 01 2008 at 12:06

Alberto Muñoz wrote:

Peter wrote:

THIS IS AN EVEN BIGGER FONT!!!

It's probably going to take a bigger and bolder font than that to get Jimmi in here. LOL

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: December 01 2008 at 16:26

This is a Hendrix thread , but since the Metallica issue popped up. I think it was a fair inclussion , I just hope PA does not have that policy of adding a band and ALL their records but if we were that strict only King Crimson's whole cataloge will survive.

Plus , it will take legions of collaborators to start disscussing what's prog and what's not.

Posted By: The T
Date Posted: December 01 2008 at 19:38

My latest reactions in green for better understanding.

HughesJB4 wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

The T wrote:

T...can you tell me when I said this?????? Please do it...If you can. .

YOU ARE PLACING WORDS IN MY MOUTH and trying to fix your mistake with a lot of fforced arguments. Ok. You didn't say that. I can give you that Ivan.

Please, put is as big as your initial post.

That would had been enough T to avoid all this disgusting problems, quote what I say, because I'm the kind odf person that always says my truth loud and clear.

Please T, don't pretend to be that naive. Oh no. I don't. I do it purposefully. Because it's very easy to see truths where other people can't see them. You just have to say it loud.

There's a debate about metallica that already has 10 pages True.
Mike starts another one PRECISELY IN THAT MOMENT SUPPORTING METALLICA'S PROGRSIVENESS I still can't see your way into mike's brain here. You love evidence. You love quotes. Isn't this just "circumstancial evidence"? No judge will condemn Mike with evidence so circumstancial as this... It's your interpretation of Mike's actions.
And you say it's not to suport Metallica...PLEASE T!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh my interpretation is:" this man - Mike - wants to promote his website and right now when Metallica is a hot topic it's the right time to create a statistic-based graph and poll in progfreak.com". I mean, it's what suits MY truth, even if it isn't. Say what you want, your view is the same.

Please T, it's yellow, has feathers, says quack, it's a duck. Here in Florida we have ducks everywhere. They're white, green, black.. .still haven't seen the yellow one... ...

What if you painted a duck red? Then you'd be wrong LOL I haven't seen the red one either. Actually, ducks' color-assortment is highly overrated...

The T wrote:

Exactly what I'm saying MAKING A FINAL DECISION ABOUT A BAND IS FUTILE, BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL INSIST EVEN IN mailto:M@X - M@X , THE ADM AND MOST OF THE PEOPLE (METALLICA LOST OF THE POLLS) DISAGREE. The validity of polls requires another thread. As some people have said, voting can be done even mechanically. The fact of the matter is, mailto:M@X - M@X turned his mind around. And therefore all the insistence actually was proven right.

Yes, but the people who were against Metallica's addition AND posted in the thread didn't provide good enough arguments/evidence to substantiate their posts. True

Most arguments went as far as "no Metallica". A feww of them were even shorter... "NO". (in caps, though, for effect...)
On the other hand, many of the pro Metallica posts by Cert for eg, had great evidence and arguments. True.

Iván Teo

So, about that Hendrix thing.....
You have to agree, discussing useless things is too entertaning to let it go...

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 01 2008 at 20:35

Just to finish this entertaining but fuutile argument that i believe had ended yesterday

The T wrote:

Please T, don't pretend to be that naive. Oh no. I don't. I do it purposefully. Because it's very easy to see truths where other people can't see them. You just have to say it loud.

There's a debate about metallica that already has 10 pages True.
Mike starts another one PRECISELY IN THAT MOMENT SUPPORTING METALLICA'S PROGRESIVENESS I still can't see your way into mike's brain here. You love evidence. You love quotes. Isn't this just "circumstancial evidence"? No judge will condemn Mike with evidence so circumstancial as this... It's your interpretation of Mike's actions.
And you say it's not to suport Metallica...PLEASE T!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh my interpretation is:" this man - Mike - wants to promote his website and right now when Metallica is a hot topic it's the right time to create a statistic-based graph and poll in progfreak.com". I mean, it's what suits MY truth, even if it isn't. Say what you want, your view is the same.

T, I won cases with less evidence than this, with Mike starting a thread

In favor of a band he has tried to include for months
In the precise moment when teh majority was against the inclusion
With the arguments he required

Again I say it....Please!!!!!!!!!!

The T wrote:

Please T, it's yellow, has feathers, says quack, it's a duck. Here in Florida we have ducks everywhere. They're white, green, black.. .still haven't seen the yellow one...

...

So..you've never seen a baby duck?

I won't reply to the Metallica arguments, because I don't say anything when the band is added.

Iván

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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: December 01 2008 at 21:31

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

So..you've never seen a baby duck?

Now here I definitely have no good arguments against that...

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 01 2008 at 21:43

^^^^^

Iván

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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 20:12

There are many reasons that Hendrix has a strong relationship to prog. Many proggy songs, many more semi-proggy songs, his musically revolutionary interactions with Mitch Mitchell, his many jams and recordings with Robert Wyatt and other prog artists plus gigs at the Marque with almost every early prog artist in Britain plus tours with Pink Floyd, the many testamonies of his influence from Fripp, Emerson, Lord, Blackmore, Robert Wyatt, Ian Anderson, Zappa, Townsend, McLaughlin, Santana, Miles and many others, and his entirely revolutionary effect on rock in general including prog rock.

Rock became much bigger and much more imaginative after Jimi came along. I think this is something that is hard to understand unless you were alive back then. The buzz about Hendrix was incredible, he really moved people and totally blew people away, more than the Beatles, the Doors or Dylan or any other artist who generated a lot of word of mouth type news back then.

Oh Yeah, his last band was a psychedelic jazz fusion band with Larry Young on kybds (ex-McLaughlin, Miles, Santana).

Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: December 13 2008 at 03:13

Easy Money wrote:

There are many reasons that Hendrix has a strong relationship to prog. Many proggy songs, many more semi-proggy songs, his musically revolutionary interactions with Mitch Mitchell, his many jams and recordings with Robert Wyatt and other prog artists plus gigs at the Marque with almost every early prog artist in Britain plus tours with Pink Floyd, the many testamonies of his influence from Fripp, Emerson, Lord, Blackmore, Townsend, McLaughlin, Santana, Miles and many others, and his entirely revolutionary effect on rock in general including prog rock.

Rock became much bigger and much more imaginative after Jimi came along. I think this is something that is hard to understand unless you were alive back then. The buzz about Hendrix was incredible, he really moved people and totally blew people away, more than the Beatles, the Doors or Dylan or any other artist who generated a lot of word of mouth type news back then.

Oh Yeah, his last band was a psychedelic jazz fusion band with Larry Young on kybds (ex-McLaughlin, Miles, Santana).

yeah he jammed with Karlsson and Hansson too ( included here on PA), a great admirer of them. Many influential journeys and associations all over the place.

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Music - The Sound Librarian

...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]