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Bern View Drop Down
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Points: 11746 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 17:27
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Bern Bern wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Anyway guys, no need to turn a friendly thread into something highly argumentative.

"Opinions are like assholes.  Everybody's got one and some of them stink."


Yeah, I just posted a long argument. LOL

It doesn't really open up debate. I think you guys should read it. Should be an interesting read.


I certainly will read what you wrote.  I don't mind people telling me they think my asshole opinion stinks.  I hate when it's done without any substantiation whatsoever (like the PM I got).  I appreciate your well-thought out reply (with examples, no less!).  I'll respond to it, if that's okay (I've not read it yet, so I don't know what I'm going to say.  Tongue).

I just don't want anyone to get bitter here, that's all, and I can definitely be sharp with my tongue if I so choose.  Pat's already nailed me once before for it.


Yeah. Don't worry about me getting bitter. I just wanted you to read what I wrote.

Thanks for reading it.

RIP in bossa nova heaven.
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moreitsythanyou View Drop Down
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Points: 11682 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 18:02
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by moreitsythanyou moreitsythanyou wrote:

I can't do it at all tonight but I was wondering if I ever got a card from playing last time.


You sure did, buddy.  And how.

You got Mr. Rick Wakeman.  Clap


Oh score!
<font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32536 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 18:42
I'll try to be as brief as possible.

First, I believe you know your junk.  That's clear.  Good for you- when it comes to paintings, I just know what I like, and am usually at a loss when it comes to interpretation.  My field is literature and language, as well as music.

My favorite painter of all time is Dali (just for the record).  I can stare at his stuff for hours.

Okay, "Black square on a white canvas."  The clever aspect is not the painting so much as the title.  Most people would say it was a white square on a black canvas.  Either way, I look at it, and go "so what?"

I have a problem with equating creativity with shock-value.  I don't value something because it (in your words) "shocks the whole [...] community."  If I did, I might have to appreciate Marilyn Manson for his contributions to music.  But since I don't, I find his whole persona and "music" asinine.




Okay, regarding the third painting, I'm going to quote you here:

Alright, I guess it would be easy for you to just say this is totally random, ugly and that it requires no talent. However, strip down your thoughts of everything you think should be represented in paintings. Painting is not made to represent things. You can do it if you like but painting is mostly about an optical experience ain't it? If you get down to the mere visual experience, you'll find out that things like that are beautiful. It might not come right away. It took me like my 2 first years of artistic education to be able to forget about the normal conception of art that society gave me. Now, it's second nature.

I don't mind this painting so much, actually.  It's somewhat interesting, but not my thing.  There are at least apparent brush strokes.  But take this one, by Theo van Doesburg:




My reaction to this is, "Okay, so the guy can make parallelograms of different colors.  Whats the big deal?"

The point is, it's uninteresting (to me at least).

Let me give you this to help you understand where I'm coming from:

In a progressive rock masterpiece, I can listen to it a hundred times, and even then, something may strike me as new, something I hadn't observed before, and that makes the whole piece somewhat new again.  Most pop music doesn't do that- it is all it will ever be.

Art is the exact same thing for me.  With Dali, I can look at one of several paintings of his for ten minutes, and then come back another time, and observe something new.  With the above abstract painting, there's nothing left to observe- they're shapes.  With colors.  I get it.

To quote you again:

"As I said, mostly all of the abstract painters had an academic training and are able to draw a perfectly realistic human figure. They just don't see the need to do it."

That's their prerogative.  But that doesn't mean I'm going to enjoy or respect anything they do.  I can piss in the snow and call it art, but I think most people will look at me and go, "You need to zip it up and go inside."  Those who applaud, I will never trust their opinions again.

To wit, if I had made "Moonchild" note for note (and King Crimson hadn't), and people told me I was a genius for all 12 minutes of it, I would shake my head and never trust them for their opinions.  If I sat here at my modest little studio and just played notes at random, and then recorded random notes on my keyboard, and then the bass, and so on, it is not a masterpiece.  It took virtually no time to do.  It took less effort.  It was gibberish.

I like effort as well as structure.  A white splotch on a black background takes absolutely no effort.  Therefore it means nothing to me.

Ditto with prog.  Sitting around and making random noises does not interest me.

If you like shock-value in your art and "directionless improvisation" in your music, that's cool with me.  I have no problem with you liking what you like.

But here's this from you:

Then, how come talented people make the best free improvisations? It does has a link. I'm pretty sure early King Crimson realised there was way more than harmony to music.

Talented people get the record deals (well, they did in '69 at least LOL).  Anybody can do what these guys did on the last nine minutes of "Moonchild."  It's silly.
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Bern View Drop Down
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Points: 11746 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 19:16
Yay for long responses! Clap

As long as you understand what I wrote earlier, I don't mind your opinion at all.

I could again write a long answer but let's keep that thread silly and fun. LOL

Edit :
But! Be warned that I could argue for hours and tell you why Theo Van Doesburg is cool and Moonchild too. Wink LOL


Edited by Bern - November 15 2008 at 19:18

RIP in bossa nova heaven.
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32536 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 19:23
Originally posted by Bern Bern wrote:


But! Be warned that I could argue for hours and tell you why Theo Van Doesburg is cool and Moonchild too. Wink LOL


I have no doubt you could.  In fact, if you get spare time, PM me on Doesburg.  I have heard you and you have gained my respect in your field.  I am very interested in learning from you about art- it would be a great benefit to my knowledge.

(Although I don't believe you could convince me the last nine minutes of "Moonchild"  are cool, but if you think you could, I'd love to hear you).
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Bern View Drop Down
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Points: 11746 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 19:29
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Bern Bern wrote:


But! Be warned that I could argue for hours and tell you why Theo Van Doesburg is cool and Moonchild too. Wink LOL


I have no doubt you could.  In fact, if you get spare time, PM me on Doesburg.  I have heard you and you have gained my respect in your field.  I am very interested in learning from you about art- it would be a great benefit to my knowledge.

(Although I don't believe you could convince me the last nine minutes of "Moonchild"  are cool, but if you think you could, I'd love to hear you).


Thanks.

I'll PM you about Van Doesburg for sure but I'll give up about Moonchild. This one is really a hit and miss. I myself hated it for a long time. It's just that once, I was in the perfect mood to "get" the random noises. LOL

RIP in bossa nova heaven.
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32536 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 19:39

[/QUOTE]
 It's just that once, I was in the perfect mood to "get" the random noises. LOL
[/QUOTE]

You should have laid off the hashish that night.  LOL
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MovingPictures07 View Drop Down
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Points: 32181 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 19:44
Hey, guys. What'd I miss?
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MovingPictures07 View Drop Down
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Points: 32181 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 19:51
Interesting read, Bern. 
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32536 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 19:53
Originally posted by MovingPictures07 MovingPictures07 wrote:

Interesting read, Bern. 


I completely agree.  I don't agree with all of it, but I enjoyed hearing him and I can say it bettered me.

Bern is edifying.
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MovingPictures07 View Drop Down
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Points: 32181 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 19:54
Say, when are we doing Jeopardy tonight, Robert?
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32536 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 19:57
We can do it in ten, but no one else gave me a time, so I'm no sure who else will play.  I'm only doing four categories now, though, so that we can reasonably finish one round without taking three nights.
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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MovingPictures07 View Drop Down
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Points: 32181 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 19:58
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

We can do it in ten, but no one else gave me a time, so I'm no sure who else will play.  I'm only doing four categories now, though, so that we can reasonably finish one round without taking three nights.


Alright. That sounds good. Hopefully others show up; I'll see if David wants to.
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32536 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 20:10
And it's...HEY BABY...your Jeopardy's waiting for you-hooo!

I'm just going to post the board (of only four categories) now.
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Bern View Drop Down
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Points: 11746 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 22:47
ME WANT CARDS

               Big smile

RIP in bossa nova heaven.
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32536 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 22:48
First, the WEENER...
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32536 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 22:53
Bern, you got:
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Bern View Drop Down
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Points: 11746 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 22:55
Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

Big smile Big smile Big smile Big smile

Clap Clap Clap Clap

Now I can die happy!

Peter Hammill!

Starless too!

And a good PT song.

Big smile

RIP in bossa nova heaven.
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32536 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 22:56
MovingPictures07, you got:
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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MovingPictures07 View Drop Down
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Points: 32181 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 22:56
Originally posted by Bern Bern wrote:

Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

Big smile Big smile Big smile Big smile

Clap Clap Clap Clap

Now I can die happy!

Peter Hammill!

Starless too!

And a good PT song.

Big smile


Rob would do anything for that Hammill card.
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