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Topic Closed$700 billion from us to save the banks. Good?
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debrewguy View Drop Down
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Points: 3596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 14:07
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

If economists are so prescient, how many saw this coming

Several

DB - not enough  to outweigh the contrarian optics ...

and why weren't their warnings heeded ?

Because it wasn't what Congress and the Federal Reserve wanted to hear.

DB - Or their what Congress' Wall Street friends wanted to hear ...
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Points: 3596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 14:08
Hey, is it time to call in Neil Bush ?Wink
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 14:41



Edited by Slartibartfast - September 30 2008 at 14:42
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 15:15
Let's remind ourselves that banks all over the world are going down in flames, not just here in the U.S.  The European central bank and the Bank of Japan are flooding their credit markets with euros/yen to stem the tide.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 15:55
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Nothing will happen. Will the cars for transport break? Will the people involved in the service die? It is all still there; the only thing that has to happen is that our values have to change a bit, or rather quite drastically. But better an end with terror than a terror without end. It is simply ridiculous how overrated the well-being of economy has become; everything else has to subordinate to it. It is high time someone blows the whistle on it, and it is a good thing we have this eye-opener now.
To quote Peter Hammill: "When we built up the temple of the money Gods we opened up Pandora's box".
 
ClapClapClap
 
I hope Americans could finally learn to live without so much "money in our pockets". That's why they're so terrified of taxes and of healthcare, it takes some money "out of their pockets", money that of course will be wasted in consuming, consuming, consuming, feeding the owner of the big business, who can "create jobs" for the middle-low class, jobs that of course are paid miserably in proportion to the actual benefit the wall-stret guy is getting. But as americans don't have healthcare (universal), they can't quit those awful low-paying "jobs", because without them they'd have NO healthcare! So tell me where the f**k is the freedom that most right-wingers talk about? Where's that freedom if people have to be pseudo-slaves in order to survive?
 
Oh, wait! If we create universal healthcare, americans would have less money in their pockets! "f**k the other! Individualism wins! I MATTER, IT"S MY MONEY". ...... this is how many americans think.  Money is the end, not a means. So, unless this changes, this country is doomed. And I live here, so believe me, I don't want it to happen.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 16:00
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

Economists all agree on a bailout ? Most economists agree on need for a bailout ? would most economists be putting in their own money ?
Don't many economists work for the financial industry, the beneficiary of said bailout ? Would that be called a conflict of interest ? Could we verify the "track record" of economists in predicting recessions (I believe the joke is that they've predicted 11 out of the last 5LOL) ? If economists are so prescient, how many saw this coming, and why weren't their warnings heeded ? Is it possible that the bailout might make a negligible difference in the actual "pain" that Joe Average will suffer, i.e. there is still going to be a recession, or economic retraction because of credit being harder to get ? Will Bush mention this ? Does he understand this ?
 
Most economists are apostles of market-fundamentalism. In the end, God Market will fix anything. They of course forget that the market is made of PEOPLE. Economists forget about the PEOPLE that their work is supposed to benefit. Remember, for an economist, if john has 2 apples and mark has zero, then actually both have one apple, therefore both are eating!! As long as the good-old market provides enough benefits for a few, even if the many are being crushed, the numbers indicate economists that actually ALL are benefiting. And then they come with this notion of "trickle down".... Which, of course, seeing how the work conditions are, is just a euphemism for CHARITY.
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Points: 2720 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 02:59
OK people, shakll we get a few things in perspective?
 

700 Billion Dollars can pay the avarage sallary of 22 Million Americans for one year. (One week of labour in August avaraged 612 Dollars)

 

700 Billion Dollars can finance a general US health insurance and sustain payments for 6 years for every US citizen.

 

700 Billion Dollars can pay for the urgently required unified communication system for the US emergency medical services 47 times over (costs are estimated at 15 Billion Dollars)

 

700 Billion Dollars can pay 100 times the cost of damms for New Orleans. 7 Billion Dollars were spent on the since hurrican Katrina.

 

700 Billion Dollars would be sufficient to pay for 10 years fight agains hunger and poverty in Africa. UN chairman Ban Ki Moon estimates the required cost at 72 Billion Dollars a year.

 

700 Billion Dollars can finance all 16 US Intelligence Services for over 15 years. The estimated cost at the moment is 44 Billion Dollars a year.

 

700 Billion Dollars are sufficient to finance 4 manned moon missions. The cost of the NASA program in the ‘60s translates to 164 Billion Dollars of today’s value. It would also be sufficient to pay for 7 international space stations

 

And if that doesn’t impress, this little ditty will surely send the majority of American voters scrambling to oppose the rescue plan: Since the Iraq conflict started, an estimated 648 Billion Dollars were spent on this little outing. 700 Billion Dollars are also estimated to be able to finance that war for another 7 years.
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Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 04:38
Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

OK people, shakll we get a few things in perspective?
 

700 Billion Dollars can pay the avarage sallary of 22 Million Americans for one year. (One week of labour in August avaraged 612 Dollars)

 

700 Billion Dollars can finance a general US health insurance and sustain payments for 6 years for every US citizen.

 

700 Billion Dollars can pay for the urgently required unified communication system for the US emergency medical services 47 times over (costs are estimated at 15 Billion Dollars)

 

700 Billion Dollars can pay 100 times the cost of damms for New Orleans. 7 Billion Dollars were spent on the since hurrican Katrina.

 

700 Billion Dollars would be sufficient to pay for 10 years fight agains hunger and poverty in Africa. UN chairman Ban Ki Moon estimates the required cost at 72 Billion Dollars a year.

 

700 Billion Dollars can finance all 16 US Intelligence Services for over 15 years. The estimated cost at the moment is 44 Billion Dollars a year.

 

700 Billion Dollars are sufficient to finance 4 manned moon missions. The cost of the NASA program in the ‘60s translates to 164 Billion Dollars of today’s value. It would also be sufficient to pay for 7 international space stations

 

And if that doesn’t impress, this little ditty will surely send the majority of American voters scrambling to oppose the rescue plan: Since the Iraq conflict started, an estimated 648 Billion Dollars were spent on this little outing. 700 Billion Dollars are also estimated to be able to finance that war for another 7 years.

Mmm-hm, because yesterday showed what a fantastic idea delaying the bailout was. What's 777 points between friends?
if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Points: 65255 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 04:56
Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

OK people, shakll we get a few things in perspective?
 

700 Billion Dollars can pay the avarage sallary of 22 Million Americans for one year. (One week of labour in August avaraged 612 Dollars)

 

700 Billion Dollars can finance a general US health insurance and sustain payments for 6 years for every US citizen.

 

700 Billion Dollars can pay for the urgently required unified communication system for the US emergency medical services 47 times over (costs are estimated at 15 Billion Dollars)

 

700 Billion Dollars can pay 100 times the cost of damms for New Orleans. 7 Billion Dollars were spent on the since hurrican Katrina.

 

700 Billion Dollars would be sufficient to pay for 10 years fight agains hunger and poverty in Africa. UN chairman Ban Ki Moon estimates the required cost at 72 Billion Dollars a year.

 

700 Billion Dollars can finance all 16 US Intelligence Services for over 15 years. The estimated cost at the moment is 44 Billion Dollars a year.

 

700 Billion Dollars are sufficient to finance 4 manned moon missions. The cost of the NASA program in the ‘60s translates to 164 Billion Dollars of today’s value. It would also be sufficient to pay for 7 international space stations

 

And if that doesn’t impress, this little ditty will surely send the majority of American voters scrambling to oppose the rescue plan: Since the Iraq conflict started, an estimated 648 Billion Dollars were spent on this little outing. 700 Billion Dollars are also estimated to be able to finance that war for another 7 years.



startling but not terribly germane, 700 Billion could pay for a great many things, some no more or less important than economic relief   ..4 manned moon missions, is that really comparable or pressing?  100 times the cost of dams in New Orleans?  I just don't see the relevance.
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Points: 7003 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 05:10
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by BroSpence BroSpence wrote:



I found this commentary quite interesting: Another different look on the situation.


Good article.  Still I can't help but wonder how many of those who got the crappy subprime loans might not have defaulted if they had been given decent fixed rate loans.


My understanding is that it was adjustable-rate loans with ridiculously low intro "teaser" rates that allowed most people to get into a house - fixed rate stuff would have been at too high an interest rate for them to afford it.  Of course, either they didn't understand what they were getting into, or were duped, but either way when the rate skyrocketed after the teaser period they were obviously screwed.
 
It's also worth remembering that the financial services industry created these mortgage products and then spent a lot of time and money aggressively marketing them. Even if 'duped'isn't exactly the case, they took out those mortgages based on the advice they received.
 
'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom


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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 07:39
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Mmm-hm, because yesterday showed what a fantastic idea delaying the bailout was. What's 777 points between friends?


"Congress Talks, Markets Soar

On Monday, the Dow Jones index plunged 778 points but yesterday it soared 485 points even though nothing changed. One of the fundamental concepts of economic theory is that markets accurately reflect the actual value of the item being traded. But it is hard to believe that the true value of companies as solid as Boeing, Disney, Pfizer, and Wal-Mart can change by nearly 10% in a few hours."  The Votemaster

http://www.electoral-vote.com
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 1191 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 08:03
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by BroSpence BroSpence wrote:



I found this commentary quite interesting: Another different look on the situation.


Good article.  Still I can't help but wonder how many of those who got the crappy subprime loans might not have defaulted if they had been given decent fixed rate loans.
First give them loans. Then give them a decent rate. What's next? Start making mortgage payments for them. How special is it
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Points: 1191 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 08:07
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by IVNORD IVNORD wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

The bail out funds come from the American public, or rather that we borrow the money and need to pay it back.

No one is happy about the proposed plan, but almost every economist agrees that failure to act and shore up the financial/credit system will hurt so much more - the most pain going to the "little guy" if businesses start failing.

And in the future, you don't need to be so condescending.  I was making a good faith effort for debrewguy to clarify his post.  I assure you I'm not as stupid as you think I am.

So what? These "experts" know which side their toast is buttered on. "Whose bread I eat, whose song I sing", as a German proverb says.
No, there will be no real harm done if these banks collapse, even if a lot of firms collapse in their wake. The means of production are still there; they only have to be given to someone else. They are the real wealth, not stocks and money.
 A big part of our economy is service economy. And by "service" I don't mean coffee shops. It's a financial service economy if you please. The stock market alone represents 30% of the economy. THe manufacturins is shrinking. The means of production are constantly being given to someone else. Someone else overseas. Can you imagine what will happen if half of the economy implodes?

Nothing will happen. Will the cars for transport break? Will the people involved in the service die? It is all still there; the only thing that has to happen is that our values have to change a bit, or rather quite drastically. But better an end with terror than a terror without end. It is simply ridiculous how overrated the well-being of economy has become; everything else has to subordinate to it. It is high time someone blows the whistle on it, and it is a good thing we have this eye-opener now.
Our values will change. But a gradual change is preferable. It'll be less social stress.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 08:10
Originally posted by IVNORD IVNORD wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by BroSpence BroSpence wrote:



I found this commentary quite interesting: Another different look on the situation.


Good article.  Still I can't help but wonder how many of those who got the crappy subprime loans might not have defaulted if they had been given decent fixed rate loans.
First give them loans. Then give them a decent rate. What's next? Start making mortgage payments for them. How special is it

Nope, you have defined where the line should be drawn.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 1191 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 08:10
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Atkingani Atkingani wrote:

Apparently the issue that Capitalism does better is to produce Panic:
 
Seeing the amount of 'panics' in the Mecca of Capitalism one can reasonably multiply per 10 when other countries are considered. Confused

Very nice remark, Atkingani And has any of these "collapses" ever really changed anything basically? Yes, there were a few financial breakdowns, but the country could continue as it did before in the end. And why? Because all the resources were still there. Now a natural catastrophe, that would be something completely different. But an economical one merely means possessions will change. If money was not that overrated in the world but reduced to what it was originally meant to be, a means for evaluation of goods, this would be no problem at all.
I don't deny the bank crash will have a deep impact. But only on the surface. If it weren't for those people who "sit" on the money instead of having it recirculate, as would be necessary for a functioning economy, this could not have happened at all. But the accumulation of money that does not get back into the economy circuit is the real problem, not a bank crash. That's only the symptom.
Where do you see that happening? in Nepal?
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Points: 1191 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 08:16
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Mmm-hm, because yesterday showed what a fantastic idea delaying the bailout was. What's 777 points between friends?
Indeed. Some paltry trilloin $$$.
 
It's a shame the stock market holds the entire country hostage though
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Points: 1191 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 08:18
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by IVNORD IVNORD wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by BroSpence BroSpence wrote:



I found this commentary quite interesting: Another different look on the situation.


Good article.  Still I can't help but wonder how many of those who got the crappy subprime loans might not have defaulted if they had been given decent fixed rate loans.
First give them loans. Then give them a decent rate. What's next? Start making mortgage payments for them. How special is it

Nope, you have defined where the line should be drawn.
The point is WHY some people should be GIVEN something?
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Points: 10261 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 08:42
Originally posted by IVNORD IVNORD wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Atkingani Atkingani wrote:

Apparently the issue that Capitalism does better is to produce Panic:
 
Seeing the amount of 'panics' in the Mecca of Capitalism one can reasonably multiply per 10 when other countries are considered. Confused

Very nice remark, Atkingani And has any of these "collapses" ever really changed anything basically? Yes, there were a few financial breakdowns, but the country could continue as it did before in the end. And why? Because all the resources were still there. Now a natural catastrophe, that would be something completely different. But an economical one merely means possessions will change. If money was not that overrated in the world but reduced to what it was originally meant to be, a means for evaluation of goods, this would be no problem at all.
I don't deny the bank crash will have a deep impact. But only on the surface. If it weren't for those people who "sit" on the money instead of having it recirculate, as would be necessary for a functioning economy, this could not have happened at all. But the accumulation of money that does not get back into the economy circuit is the real problem, not a bank crash. That's only the symptom.
Where do you see that happening? in Nepal?

Close your eyes to it if you like. Ever read the statistics about of the distribution of  wealth? And noticed how they become more and more lopsided over the years? Withdraw money from the circulation, and the economy will collapse. That law is so basic it does not even need to be explained. And cashing in the profits and accumulating huge fortunes IS withdrawing money.


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Points: 1191 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 09:01
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by IVNORD IVNORD wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Atkingani Atkingani wrote:

Apparently the issue that Capitalism does better is to produce Panic:
 
Seeing the amount of 'panics' in the Mecca of Capitalism one can reasonably multiply per 10 when other countries are considered. Confused

Very nice remark, Atkingani And has any of these "collapses" ever really changed anything basically? Yes, there were a few financial breakdowns, but the country could continue as it did before in the end. And why? Because all the resources were still there. Now a natural catastrophe, that would be something completely different. But an economical one merely means possessions will change. If money was not that overrated in the world but reduced to what it was originally meant to be, a means for evaluation of goods, this would be no problem at all.
I don't deny the bank crash will have a deep impact. But only on the surface. If it weren't for those people who "sit" on the money instead of having it recirculate, as would be necessary for a functioning economy, this could not have happened at all. But the accumulation of money that does not get back into the economy circuit is the real problem, not a bank crash. That's only the symptom.
Where do you see that happening? in Nepal?

Close your eyes to it if you like. Ever read the statistics about of the distribution of  wealth? And noticed how they become more and more lopsided over the years? Withdraw money from the circulation, and the economy will collapse. That law is so basic it does not even need to be explained. And cashing in the profits and accumulating huge fortunes IS withdrawing money.
Huge fortunes wouldn't be huge if they didn't re-invest. Even if you deposit your money in a bank account, it's re-investment
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Points: 10261 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 09:42
Some reinvestment. The money is being moved from one shark to another. But is still is withdrawn from public circulation. That's not  really reinvestment. Joe Average won't see a dollar of it.


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