Bluffing a music geek

Reminds me of the first question I used to ask my daughter's boyfriends:

Edited by jammun - September 25 2008 at 22:00

jammun wrote: Reminds me of the first question I used to ask my daughter's boyfriends: "David or Sammy"?   Occurs to me I should give the appropriate response based on their answer:   1.  "Who?".  This guy and I aren't going to have a lot to talk about. 2.  "Sammy!"  This guy's a loser. 3.  "David!".  Better make sure daughter is taking precautions!

Why is somebody a loser just because he likes Sammy Davis Jr.? And why should a girl take precautions dating David Crosby?

Guzzman wrote: jammun wrote: Reminds me of the first question I used to ask my daughter's boyfriends: "David or Sammy"?   Occurs to me I should give the appropriate response based on their answer:   1.  "Who?".  This guy and I aren't going to have a lot to talk about. 2.  "Sammy!"  This guy's a loser. 3.  "David!".  Better make sure daughter is taking precautions!     Why is somebody a loser just because he likes Sammy Davis Jr.? And why should a girl take precautions dating David Crosby?

I do believe he was talking about Bing Crosby, Bill's brother who added an "R" to the family name.

Rocktopus wrote: debrewguy wrote: Rocktopus wrote: debrewguy wrote: But I've never ever ever ever ever claimed that any genre of music was superior to any other. I do, well not as much the genres in itself. I don't think its snobbish to state that Beethoven is superior to DJ Bobo. Sometimes its a little more difficult to tell, but I'm no culture relativist.  Ah, but then how do you prove one's superiority over another ? If you prefer Bach, would you be as open to being told that Beethoven is superior to Bach ? Do you know how one could or would prove which is "superior" ? No. I just need to pretend I don't know that Beethoven Ninth's superior to this in every thinkable way. Doesn't mean I have to measure every piece of music or artistic expression up against each other. DB - so we agree that there is no need o rpoint to argue about the relative superiority of any piece of music ? Stating preferences, or saying that the best musician you've found is X, that's one thing. Claiming subjective opinion to be objective is hard to do. Do you cite album sales, concert tickets sold ? Do you comb the internet to see which group is most cited as an influence ? I've heard all your arguments many times. If all artists had that attitude, there would not exist any masterpieces.( Are you sure ? If so, why would that be)  If every artistic expression is equal, and no one can say one piece of work is greater than another, and knowledge doesn't make opinions more weighty, then everyone and everything would end up mediocre. DB - The point is not whether all are equal. The point is claiming that one can proclaim one piece of music, or musical act as being objectively superior to another. And being knowledgeable about music, whether its' history, theory, or even critical/commercial success just means you know more about the history, theory, or critical/commercial/success.Your opinion is still subjective. There is no need for experts to tell people what is good , great, mediocre or just plain bad. In Pop music, that is now known as Hype. Hype, whether it comes from a Phd in Music, or Warner Bros marketing dept, has no bearing on the music's actual quality. And if expertise is a valid measure of one's god given objective judgement, then do you accept the many classical music expert or jazzbo disdain for Pop/Rock music, in all its' forms, including prog, jazz fusion and other genres ? Again, if you prefer Samla to Zamla, is there really a point to arguing which one is "superior" ? Can't you just leave it at which one you like better or find more interesting ? I.E. stating a subjective point of view, rather that proclaiming an unattainable, and unprovable objective statement ? Who's the prettiest - Kim Cattrall, Michelle Pfeiffer, or Susan Sarandon ? Do they really measure up to Catherine Deneuve ? Or Jayne Mansfield ? Does Dolly Parton surpass all five in beauty ? Is Queen Latifah better looking ? Should we say Billie Holiday beats 'em all ? Can we get a consensus as to how Tony Curtis in drag measures up to them ? Do you look at PA's top 100 and go, "These people look pretty intelligent (for the most part) and thus their ranking is true to my tastes" ? Defenetly not. DB - time for a humour transplant, Rocky. The point was to say that because one agrees with something, that the statement in and of itself is suddenly proven to be intelligent by the very fact that it matches our opinion. Example, I agree (I don't) with George Bush's position on Iraq, therefore Dubya is right about Iraq. So please understand there is a difference between my "anti-snobbishness" and accepting a person's freedom to prefer one piece of art over another for whatever reasons that person wants to use for comparison's sake. Is Samla superior to Zappa ? Should Univers Zero fans bow to the obviously higher artistic merit of Henry Cow ? Were Badfinger really deserving of better record sales than Big Star ? Will Nancy believe Harry's alibi and decide to stay for the sake of the kids ? Tune in tomorrow when our true worth is found to not depend on our tastes in various forms of art. Will DB ever find an editor with enough time on his hands to whittle down his posts ? Will Alex Kovalev carry the Habs to the Stanley Cup in this, the 100th anniversary of the Montreal Canadiens ? And if he doesn't, will Yes ask him to stand in for Benoit David ? If Yes takes him away, what will cause the most anger in Montreal - losing their best player or having a native son loses out a big musical break ? And most of all , where can I get an early copy of Cynic's Traced in Air before its' release date of Oct 20 ?

Well, I went on eBay a few years back and scored an acetate of Fidelio, the Basement Tapes, which the seller claims he found at a garage sale.

Wasn't Bach's music overlooked for a number of years after his death ? Quoting from the  Wikipedia bio

"While Bach's fame as an organist was great during his lifetime, he was not particularly well-known as a composer. His adherence to Baroque forms and contrapuntal style was considered "old-fashioned" by his contemporaries, especially late in his career when the musical fashion tended towards Rococo and later Classical styles. A revival of interest and performances of his music began early in the 19th century, and he is now widely considered to be one of the greatest composers in the Western tradition."

So, if we had spoken with an 18th century music critic, would his opinion of Bach vs Handel have withstood the test of time ?

Among "knowledgeable" music circles , there are differing views as to which composers and artists are considered to have an impact beyond their time. Robert Johnson, Miles Davis, Mozart, Wes Montgomery, John/Paul/George/Ringo, Elvis, Chuck Berry, etc ... . But you will find disagreements. The classical music world is filled with those who see no merit to any genre of music that is related to Rock n Roll. That includes prog. You will find derision for Jazz Fusion among the  jazzbos. And so you have the same attitude within Rock music. One genre is "superior" to another because it is X, or contains Y.
So the viewpoint that is dismissive of a music simply because it does not meet certain measures or standards is laughable to say the least.
Who can say that Haydn might not have been a Neo-Prog fan ? That Beethoven might have Led Zep use of dynamics to be of interest ? That Robert Johnson would have dug the Jon Butcher Blues Explosion or the White Stripes ? Maybe Mozart would have complimented Tony Banks on the melody from the Fountain of Salmacis ?
Indeed, who knew that Samla would still be finding fans almost 40 years after its' inception ?
C'est la vie, say the old folks, just goes to show you never can tell



Edited by debrewguy - September 26 2008 at 23:22

debrewguy wrote:   Maybe Mozart would have complimented Tony Banks on the melody from the Fountain of Salmacis ?

Easy Money wrote: Vompatti wrote: Easy Money wrote: Vompatti wrote: I think I've heard of Beethoven. What was his manager's name? Beethoven is overrated, way way overrated. Indeed. I liked some of his early demos, but the first symphony was a total sell-out. I only listen to original vinyl LPs.

try to get the remaster version it has 5 bonus tracks

If one ought to respect the individual's subjective opinions on what music is superior to other music, one should also, to avoid hypocrisy, respect the individual's right to disagree with the aforementioned point of view, don't you think?

I used to share Rocktopus' way of rating music, but I have abandoned it in favour of a philosophy more in tune with debrewguy's, although it also extends to subjects other than music. Becuase of that, I don't see the point of this debate.

Philéas wrote: If one ought to respect the individual's subjective opinions on what music is superior to other music, one should also, to avoid hypocrisy, respect the individual's right to disagree with the aforementioned point of view, don't you think? I used to share Rocktopus' way of rating music, but I have abandoned it in favour of a philosophy more in tune with debrewguy's, although it also extends to subjects other than music. Becuase of that, I don't see the point of this debate.

I have no problems with someone saying they find one work of art superior than another. It is just a way of saying that you like one over the other. Stating that it is objectively superior is another.